DS9 on blu ray?

[Shalashaska]

Any chance the new show could boost chances of seeing this?

New show comes out, new show is good, new show hits the mainstream like other niche/geek shows such Game of Thrones and The Walking Dead, people buy Blu-rays of new show, CBS wants to capitalize on rising popularity/interest in Star Trek, releases all-new Remasters of classic Trek shows such as Deep Space Nine and Voyager, they sell because people care about Star Trek again, everyone's happy.

Well yeah, of course it's possible. But nobody's saying it's certain, or even likely. It's also possible that Paramount wouldn't want to muddy the waters by cross-promoting the hell out of an old show when they're trying to sell people on watching the new one.

As well, like someone else said, it won't be as huge of a project as TNG Remastered was. A lot of the original effects that had to be completely re-made for TNG have been saved and only have to be re-rendered in 1080p/2K/4K.

I find this a very simplistic assessment. Sure, DS9 used some regurgitated footage from TNG, and the re-made versions of those shots from TNG-R are as good as anything. But a hell of a lot was shot new as well, and all of that would need to be rescanned in the same extensive way as TNG-R, or else recreated. And that's before we get to the later seasons where we start seeing CG come into its own (which becomes even more of a problem on Voyager than it does on DS9, admittedly.)

As well, like someone else said, it won't be as huge of a project as TNG Remastered was. A lot of the original effects that had to be completely re-made for TNG have been saved and only have to be re-rendered in 1080p/2K/4K.

Source pls? Because I only heard the opposite: Many CGI effects would need to be redone by scratch, since the original files/resource/software is not available anymore (lost, scattered, deleted).

Was this not posted just a couple pages back?

https://www.reddit.com/r/DeepSpaceNine/comments/1e2xih/big_news_a_large_number_of_the_original_cgi/

On the few occasions where CG models were used in The Next Generation - the most notable being the Crystalline entity from "Datalore" and "Silicon Avatar" - Niel Wray and his CG team at CBS Digital have to start from scratch in building the elements. Any original files that may have been used to render the shot back in the day have long since been lost. As any CG artist will tell you, rendering shots in CG is complicated enough, but when you have to reproduce something, not only in appearance but in motion, the level of difficulty grows almost exponentially.

It's long since been the belief of fans - and indeed CBS - that the scene files used back in the 1990s to render these CG shots have long since been lost. After all, it was far easier to neglect computer files than it was rolls of physical film. Couple that with how hard disc space was such a valuable commodity 15 years ago, and an assumption that the original files were lost or simply overwritten could certainly be believable.

Bonchune went on to describe how he has all of the original assets for not only his work with Foundation Imaging on Deep Space Nine, but also the vast majority of Star Trek: Voyager:

Unless someone has some fantastic algorithm for up-rezzing to make it HD quality – and I guess that could be possible – but to redo it is to virtually start over from scratch. You’re talking about what they did for the Original Series, getting a real team to sit down and redo basically everything from the third season on, almost from scratch.​

If they ask one of us – and if they use a team that uses LightWave – it’ll be much easier for them to redo… because the guys who worked on it, like me, have the assets. We have the original ships; we have most of everything that was used [in the making of the series]. That would eliminate a ton of the cost of rebuilding.​

So, how would I approach it? The same way I did at the time – I’d figure out what was done in CG, and we’d just start from there. And today, it would be easier! Literally, you could just load the scene files and hit ‘render’ – it would be done! I mean, not everything… but a lot more than you’d think.​

Quality of the Assets: Do They Hold Up In HD?

What's more, Bonchune went on to reveal in our interview that while he was working in CGI and Digital Effects on Star Trek, a large amount of work was purposefully over-built with the team putting in a huge amount of detail which could never be seen at standard definition, but which makes a re-render in high definition all the more tantalizing:

...If it was built by my team, it was overbuilt. It’ll hold up. I would be more surprised to see something that doesn’t hold up. I would be shocked if it doesn’t hold up to high definition.​

This was an absolute revelation to me, and made even more surreal by how calmly Rob Bonchune announced the news in our telephone interview. Clearly, the potential ramifications for any remastering of Deep Space Nine and Voyager are huge. Given access to the original scene files which were used to create the show's CG sequences, the difficulty of remastering DS9 and Voyager would be considerably reduced and a transition to HD would appear far more feasible than if CBS had to start from scratch.

In Summary

• Star Trek: Deep Space Nine and Voyager are far more challenging to remaster in HD due to their use of CG. Until now, the original assets used to create these CG shots were presumed lost.
• Through talking to original artists such as Robert Bonchune, I discovered that a large number of the assets still exist for these shows.
• The scene files can be accessed using current technology relatively easily.
• A large amount of the work produced originally was over-built and should hold up well when re-rendered in high definition.

 

[Shalashaska]

Comparison from DVD DS9 and re-rendered DS9 using original assets:

High-res image

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

Comparison from DVD DS9 and re-rendered DS9 using original assets:

High-res image

Ships have different serial numbers? Couldn't re-render those...

It's probably been too long to economically accomplish now. 20-odd years? They have to find the files, which are probably in a format that no-one uses today, which means they'll have to be converted to file formats that people do use today, or they'll have to find the original software, and hardware old enough to run that software on (or write new emulators to run that old software). Sounds like a major PITA. Tell me if you've got any DOS software running on your Windows 10 machines...

 

[Squiggy]

The new DS9 novel Ascendance is out just after Christmas and Force and Motion is out in May; sales of the novels show that the fans still have an interest in DS9. *Obvious hint hint*

Since the books aren't out yet, I don't think you should be using this as proof of demand. The last book had 3 out of 5 stars with 41 reviews on Amazon. That isn't really going to make CBS spend millions on a remaster.


50 Shades of Gray, while heinous, cost only 40 million to produce...it has about 40,000 4+ stars on Amazon.


If you want books sales to make someone at CBS take notice, try getting over 100 reviews.

Any chance the new show could boost chances of seeing this?

If anything, it reduces chances. It's showing that TPTB are moving on.

New show comes out, new show is good, new show hits the mainstream like other niche/geek shows such Game of Thrones and The Walking Dead, people buy Blu-rays of new show, CBS wants to capitalize on rising popularity/interest in Star Trek, releases all-new Remasters of classic Trek shows such as Deep Space Nine and Voyager, they sell because people care about Star Trek again, everyone's happy.

Demand for Prime Trek didn't pick up after the movies. If people who watch the nuSeries like it enough to be fans of the show, enough aren't going to be searching for a 20 year old version of the thing they just watched.

The older a show is, the fewer new fans it's going to pick up and the more older fans loose interest.

As well, like someone else said, it won't be as huge of a project as TNG Remastered was. A lot of the original effects that had to be completely re-made for TNG have been saved and only have to be re-rendered in 1080p/2K/4K.

Not "as huge", but still "huge". They'll have to rescan all the original film, redo all the GFX that was edited on film, and then track down any SD CGI from the later seasons and uprez them or redo them if they're not up to par.

God only knows if they're able to track dow as much footage as they did for TNG.

Also, as we've seen they put out bids for the remastering and they ROI wasn't worth it. DS9 would need to see an astronomical spike in demand, and every year that traditional media decreases in demand, that spike gets harder and harder to get.

TL;DR Alex Kurtzman has a lot on his plate. Don't fuck the new show up.[/QUOTE]
If your metric is going to be the remastering of DS9, then he's already failed.

 

[Kor]

I think they would need to apply some filters or something, since that re-rendered ship looks like a big chunk of plastic.

Kor

 

[DS9forever]

Sales are what Pocket Books take into account, not Amazon reviews. Plus Amazon isn't the only place that sells DS9 novels.

 

[Squiggy]

Sales are what Pocket Books take into account, not Amazon reviews. Plus Amazon isn't the only place that sells DS9 novels.

Of course, but the number of reviews is a good measure of popularity. 40 reviews isn't even a blip on the radar. In terms of sales "rank" on Amazon (again, the best public measure we have), DS9: Ascendance is #51,265 in the US.

And while it isn't the only place you can buy books, it's by far the most popular. Something isn't going to be a poor seller there and fly off the shelves everywhere else.

I'm sure the suits who control Trek's budget know exactly how many books are sold...and so far it hasn't been impressive enough to change anyone's mind. If it's a New York Times best seller? Maybe? But nothing short of that will get anyone to notice.

 

[RunawayStarShip]

Sales are what Pocket Books take into account, not Amazon reviews. Plus Amazon isn't the only place that sells DS9 novels.

Of course, but the number of reviews is a good measure of popularity. 40 reviews isn't even a blip on the radar. In terms of sales "rank" on Amazon (again, the best public measure we have), DS9: Ascendance is #51,265 in the US.

And while it isn't the only place you can buy books, it's by far the most popular. Something isn't going to be a poor seller there and fly off the shelves everywhere else.

I'm sure the suits who control Trek's budget know exactly how many books are sold...and so far it hasn't been impressive enough to change anyone's mind. If it's a New York Times best seller? Maybe? But nothing short of that will get anyone to notice.

In general, only ~5000 copies need to be sold in a week to make the list (depending on strength of competition, of course), and this doesn't necessarily account for longevity in sales. A few Star Trek novels have made the list in recent memory (for example, The Crimson Shadow ranked 17th and The Poisoned Chalice was ranked 15th).

As much as I'm glad that some TrekLit is doing well sales-wise, those numbers, which may be good for books, aren't enough to swing an accountant's decision on whether a remastering project is viable.

 

[Squiggy]

I was trying to be more diplomatic, but yeah...Hollywood doesn't care about book sales until it becomes a monster like Harry Potter, Hunger Games, Twilight, or something similar.

 

[dub]

Any chance the new show could boost chances of seeing this?

It's a secret hope of mine. I never mentioned it here because I figured it would just get shot down. But since you mentioned it, +1 on that dream! Unlikely, yes. But a man can dream.

 

[The Caretaker]

In an odd development, seaQuest DSV has had a Blu Ray makeover and is now available in Australia. From what I have managed to find out online it is not a straight upscale, the film footage has been remastered. I've ordered a copy for myself as I have a soft spot for this series, but it is bizarre this release even exists. I need to see for myself what the extent of the upgrade is.

Surely if seaQuest has a market on Blu Ray, then DS9 must do...

 

[NewHorizon]

Comparison from DVD DS9 and re-rendered DS9 using original assets:

High-res image

Ships have different serial numbers? Couldn't re-render those...

It's probably been too long to economically accomplish now. 20-odd years? They have to find the files, which are probably in a format that no-one uses today, which means they'll have to be converted to file formats that people do use today, or they'll have to find the original software, and hardware old enough to run that software on (or write new emulators to run that old software). Sounds like a major PITA. Tell me if you've got any DOS software running on your Windows 10 machines...

I'm not where how you are arriving at these conclusions...
The above sample was re-rendered using an up to date version of the same software used on the show. It was either lightwave or Maya...can't recall if they mentioned it in that interview though. Both pieces of software are still heavily used and can open the old file formats. As the DS9 artist from the interview said, he has all of the original files that his team worked on..which is around half of the show right there. His team also overbuilt their models so they would stand up if re-rendered later in HD. What his re-render lacks is some tweaked lighting and a grain filter to blend it with the rest of the show.

The reason the registry number is different is because the last time that model was used, the registry was altered for use as another ship.

As long as they can locate the majority of the files, it's a relatively easy exercise to re-render.

 

[Tomalak]

There's a re-rendered clip of the Defiant in the final battle from WYLB on YouTube too. Presumably someone who worked on the show knocked that up.

 

[Kemaiku]

Two second clips are swell. Entire episodes cost money and time. And going by the fact both clips are using a different CGI model with alterations and a rather low level quality pass just for that clip, they are having to redo a great deal for just that.

But by all means, do keep asking a studio to essentially flush several million dollars down the drain on a show that had mediocre viewership even in it's initial airing when the studio *had to* spend money on it.

 

[Delta1]

Tell me if you've got any DOS software running on your Windows 10 machines...

I don't use Windows 10, but I've found it fairly trivial to run DOS applications on Linux. The same methods should work on Windows.

 

[Mage]

There's a re-rendered clip of the Defiant in the final battle from WYLB on YouTube too. Presumably someone who worked on the show knocked that up.

If I recall correctly.... That wasn't a re-render, but a fan who recreated the scene. Could be mistaken ofcourse.

 

[tomswift2002]

In an odd development, seaQuest DSV has had a Blu Ray makeover and is now available in Australia. From what I have managed to find out online it is not a straight upscale, the film footage has been remastered. I've ordered a copy for myself as I have a soft spot for this series, but it is bizarre this release even exists. I need to see for myself what the extent of the upgrade is.

Surely if seaQuest has a market on Blu Ray, then DS9 must do...

Season 2 is scheduled to be released in March 2016.

But from the shots I've seen on the internet, it looks like CGI has been upressed from a component video source, rather than the composite video source that was used for the DVD's.

But I still think that you haven't given CBS enough time to get DS9 into the remastering stage. CBS hasn't even made Syndication masters of TNG HD, they only have Network HD masters right now (just like CBS only has 26 episodes of Star Trek Enterprise available in HD for Syndication, but the full series available in HD for Network.)

And what's up on Youtube wasn't done by a fan, but by someone who actually worked on DS9 and still has the files, including the majority of the files for the big battle in Sacrifice Of Angels.

 

[DS9forever]

But by all means, do keep asking a studio to essentially flush several million dollars down the drain on a show that had mediocre viewership even in it's initial airing when the studio *had to* spend money on it.

Wrong. From Trek Nation;

Deep Space Nine spent most of its lifetime as the number one syndicated first-run show on television despite its falling number of viewers. Even when it became a near-serial show (usually, long-term serial shows are ratings disasters -- witness Babylon 5) airing in prime-time in less than 60 percent of the nation, DS9 managed well over a 4.0 average in its final two years. As a general rule, a syndicated show needs to maintain a 3.0 to be successful, DS9 always maintained that despite the strikes against it. Look at the other sci-fi shows similar to DS9: Earth: Final Conflict is regarded as a decent show ratings-wise, staying in the lower 3.0 range and Babylon 5 is the hot potato of science fiction television -- it's done so poorly that no one wants to hold on to it.

As a serial, more cultish television show, DS9 is right behind the X-Files on the all-time list of successes even with extreme disadvantages.

 

[Squiggy]

Saying something was "the number one syndicated first-run show on television" and immediately follow it up with "despite its falling number of viewers" isn't really proof of popularity.

 

[DS9forever]

Also from Trek Nation:

The fact of the matter is that Star Trek has been losing its audience since TNG's glory days in its 4th and 5th seasons