DS9 on blu ray?

[Grant]

It's money for me. I AM a diehard of TNG and DS9, but have 3 kids (Trek fans!!) and it costs money to raise kids. I will end up buying all Trek that comes to Blu sooner or later---sooner if the price drops.

 

[benjaminh]

It's money for me. I AM a diehard of TNG and DS9, but have 3 kids (Trek fans!!) and it costs money to raise kids. I will end up buying all Trek that comes to Blu sooner or later---sooner if the price drops.

As a parent myself, I fell your pain on the $. May the prices drop soon for you, because watching Trek with my kids had been one of the many fun things of parenthood....I realize you know that already and have already gotten to do it a lot, I'm just wishing for more for you.

 

[Maxwell Everett]

So if we add up just these available figures we get $7.7 million. Again that's without data for S2 & S5. If we assume those seasons did roughly what S4 did, that takes us to about $9 million. And again, these are only opening week figures in the U.S. and do not take into account worldwide figures or subsequent weeks of sales or the digital downloads sold on iTunes.

If these numbers have any reality then I don't see what the problem is. From what I have heard the whole project cost around $9 million in the first place. Here we have figures telling us they made that money back just from the opening week sales of each season.

So there was a huge drop off in sales following season 1. Maybe that came as a disappointment to CBS that this wouldn't be the miracle cash cow they had hoped for. But hey, its still making good money if this is anything to go by and this will make money for some time to come surely? Is this a matter of unrealistic expectations on the side of CBS?

Of course, these figures only give us an idea of how well they're selling, not how much CBS has actually made on them (I probably should have pointed that out!). For that, we'd have to factor in the retailer and wholesaler percentages which probably leaves CBS with about $40 of each set or 2/3 (66%) of the opening week gross, so we're back down to maybe $6 million or so?

I think there's a good likelihood that once Season 7 comes out or shortly thereafer, they may possibly be in the black. It could be that DS9 on blu-ray with full TNG-like VAM would have required them to make double their investment. I still think an HD upgrade with the live-action film rescanned at a minimum is all but guaranteed.

 

[Grant]

It's money for me. I AM a diehard of TNG and DS9, but have 3 kids (Trek fans!!) and it costs money to raise kids. I will end up buying all Trek that comes to Blu sooner or later---sooner if the price drops.

As a parent myself, I fell your pain on the $. May the prices drop soon for you, because watching Trek with my kids had been one of the many fun things of parenthood....I realize you know that already and have already gotten to do it a lot, I'm just wishing for more for you.

Well we have TOS on Blu -as well as Ent season 4 and all the movies and TNG S1 and S3.

And we have other DS9 and TNG on DVD.

And we've borrowed all the other seasons of the series' from the library--so we're all caught up on every hour of Trek.

Just waiting for price drop on Ent 1-3 and TNG on Blu-ray.

And of course, DS9 ON BLU_RAY!!!!

Bring it

 

[Harvey]

Those are only opening week numbers, and they don't account for how these sets have performed during the holidays, which is a major selling window for home video. Add to that the revenue earned from streaming the episodes on Amazon Prime, selling them on iTunes, and syndicating them on TV and I'd be shocked if CBS hadn't made their $9 million back already.

That doesn't make the project a huge success or mean that DS9 getting the same treatment is a sure thing, of course. Without seeing the internal numbers (never going to happen) all we can do is speculate. But in the black? Probably already there -- if the whole project only cost $9 million.

 

[Cap.T]

Those are only opening week numbers, and they don't account for how these sets have performed during the holidays, which is a major selling window for home video. Add to that the revenue earned from streaming the episodes on Amazon Prime, selling them on iTunes, and syndicating them on TV and I'd be shocked if CBS hadn't made their $9 million back already.

Don't forget about the rest of the world. Paramount/CBS are releasing these sets in a lot of countrys. There not just making there money back from the states. At least a little bit of additional money comes in from countrys like Germany and UK were Trek is also well liked.

But the drop off in sales numbers after the first season make little sense to me personally. I would get if there would be a little drop off. But this one was so massive... I just don't get it.

 

[Robert Comsol]

That doesn't make the project a huge success or mean that DS9 getting the same treatment is a sure thing, of course. Without seeing the internal numbers (never going to happen) all we can do is speculate. But in the black? Probably already there -- if the whole project only cost $9 million.

A big thanks to Maxwell Everett for these sale figure estimates.

But if CBS Home Entertainment is "just" in the black for TNG, doesn't that rather paint a black picture for DS9-R?

As we discussed / were uncertain earlier it's the amount of post-production CGI cleanup work DS9 was exposed to. I'd think that the fine people at CBS Digital, based on their learning experience with TNG-R, could remaster DS9 for less cost than TNG, but possibly would have a bigger workload remastering DS9 so they might end up with the same costs, still.

Thus, remastering DS9 would probably require the same sale figures TNG-R yielded.

Bob

 

[80ninjas]

A big thanks to Maxwell Everett for these sale figure estimates.

But if CBS Home Entertainment is "just" in the black for TNG, doesn't that rather paint a black picture for DS9-R?

As we discussed / were uncertain earlier it's the amount of post-production CGI cleanup work DS9 was exposed to. I'd think that the fine people at CBS Digital, based on their learning experience with TNG-R, could remaster DS9 for less cost than TNG, but possibly would have a bigger workload remastering DS9 so they might end up with the same costs, still.

Thus, remastering DS9 would probably require the same sale figures TNG-R yielded.

Bob

Even if DS9 would require the same sales figures as TNG-R, I can't see why CBS wouldn't want to have at least something in HD for each series.

Since it doesn't look like we'll get any new Trek on TV for the time being, and the fact that CBS doesn't see any revenue from the movies, CBS has to work with what they've got.

At this point I can't see DS9 and Voyager being huge sellers on DVD these days. With HD streaming and Blu-ray quality surpassing DVD, CBS would be smart to keep the cash cow flowing by putting the last two out in HD.

With how much each season of TNG-R costs, I don't think CBS was ever expecting it to be like a normal movie release, where performance is based on how well it does in the short term. This seems like a project that was always going to be a slow burn that would pay off in the long run (not to mention prep the show for the far future 4K restoration that you just know will eventually happen ).

In the end though, I do agree with Maxwell: even if we don't get the full restoration treatment, I do think some form of an HD release will happen. I still hold out hope that they'll go all-out, but I'd take an HD release with just the live-action film rescanned, if only for the lossless audio and new special features.

 

[SoM]

If they are really not planning to go straight into DS9 S1 (or even Voyager S1) after TNG S7, I really don't think they'll ever "properly" do it. Restarting the pipeline after shutting it down means more time and training people up all over again.

Hell, if they were on the bubble, you'd think they'd do a "DS9: The Next Level" sampler between TNG S6 & 7 to get some sort of gauge while they still had some time to react. Judging from what FrontierTrek has said, I am now very pessimistic.

 

[benjaminh]

If they are really not planning to go straight into DS9 S1 (or even Voyager S1) after TNG S7, I really don't think they'll ever "properly" do it. Restarting the pipeline after shutting it down means more time and training people up all over again.

Hell, if they were on the bubble, you'd think they'd do a "DS9: The Next Level" sampler between TNG S6 & 7 to get some sort of gauge while they still had some time to react. Judging from what FrontierTrek has said, I am now very pessimistic.

I wouldn't say I'm very pessimistic quite yet, but my optimism is fading almost by the day.

I still could see it going either way.

And I'm also intrigued by the "middle way"—the very generous selection of 78 or so episodes as listed by Bolty at blu-ray.com.

What's still seems weird to me is this: DS9 is one of the best Treks made, in terms of writing, fx, sets, make-up, acting, etc. To make a show of this quality today would cost at least $3 million an episode, and probably more. Given that 176 episodes of DS9 were made, the show represents something like a half billion dollar investment. It probably made back all of that money from its original run, and from the DVD sales several years later. But still, they spent the equivalent of about $500 million dollars making one of the best science fiction shows ever—and now CBS can't come up the tiny fraction of that, whatever that is, to rebuilt it for HD?

But I assume if they decide not to do it that they've crunched the numbers and come up with something that they don't like. It's probably not a decision they are making lightly.

And maybe the decision is just being made now or in the next few months. Corporations like people can sometimes put off a decision until the last minute. Another 6 months of work is still in the pipeline for TNG, and so they may feel that anything before this summer is really premature.

But if, by August, we haven't heard at least some positive glint of something.....

 

[SoM]

And I'm also intrigued by the "middle way"—the very generous selection of 78 or so episodes as listed by Bolty at blu-ray.com.

I don't really see that as a viable option. Yes, in a literal sense it would be possible to make a cut down three-series "package" out of the seven actual series, but given that either way they'd need to track down all the stock footage, probably make new CGI models for DS9, the Defiant-class, the Jem'Hadar and Cardassian ships and any other relevant Starfleet ships (if "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" is on the list, you're committing to building a CGI Intrepid-class - i.e., Voyager - with no possibility of reuse!)... you're spending the money on all the fixed costs without fully amortising them. Penny-wise, pound-foolish.

 

[TheSeeker]

It seems that CBS is getting cold feet when looking at the massive cost of redoing all seven seasons of DS9.

That is pure speculation. There seems to be a lot of had wringing over nothing at this point. We haven't even gotten Season Six of TNG yet, but now based on the fact that there has been no official announcement of DS9 on Blu-Ray you've decide CBS doesn't want to do it? It wasn't so long ago that people were saying TNG in HD would never happen because of the incredible amount of work it would take, and yet here we are almost at the end of the remastering process. I think we all need to take a step back and just breath a little and wait for something more than a vague tweet.

 

[Grant]

And I'm also intrigued by the "middle way"—the very generous selection of 78 or so episodes as listed by Bolty at blu-ray.com.

I don't really see that as a viable option. Yes, in a literal sense it would be possible to make a cut down three-series "package" out of the seven actual series, but given that either way they'd need to track down all the stock footage, probably make new CGI models for DS9, the Defiant-class, the Jem'Hadar and Cardassian ships and any other relevant Starfleet ships (if "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" is on the list, you're committing to building a CGI Intrepid-class - i.e., Voyager - with no possibility of reuse!)... you're spending the money on all the fixed costs without fully amortising them. Penny-wise, pound-foolish.

It's kind of a fun thing to speculate on for the most part. Very unlikely, but how much more unlikely than the entire series in the near future?
The fun aspect is guessing what would actually be the 'best of' and it would be cool to have what they did for X-Files on DVD---where they put all the "mythology episodes on a set for people who didn't want or couldn't afford the entire 9 seasons.

I have no doubt that if they did the entire series they would THEN find a way to package all the arcs or do theme sets.......

The "Mirror episodes" box set
The "Dominion War" box set
The "Klingon" box set, etc.

Funny thing is that for Twilight Zone they released all 5 seasons on Blu-ray and then released best of sets---except the "best of" mixed some of the best episodes with the worst! LOL
As a cheap trick to sell more best of sets later by holding back on some of the best episodes.

They actually included "Mr. Dingle, the Strong" and "I sing the Body Electric." on a best of set!!

So I think it would be nice either before or after they release DS9 on Blu-ray they actually do a true voted on best of set.

Some people are just never going to be able to afford full season sets, but they may make an quick purchase of the 6 or 7 Mirror episodes on a 2 disc set with maybe a commentary(s) as bonus extra.

I have noticed a strange kind of "F--you if you don't want full season sets!" attitude in various forums.

As if speculating or wishing for best of sets is actually hurting people in some way.

"You're not a true fan if you wouldn't buy all 7 seasons!"

 

[Grant]

It seems that CBS is getting cold feet when looking at the massive cost of redoing all seven seasons of DS9.

That is pure speculation. There seems to be a lot of had wringing over nothing at this point. We haven't even gotten Season Six of TNG yet, but now based on the fact that there has been no official announcement of DS9 on Blu-Ray you've decide CBS doesn't want to do it? It wasn't so long ago that people were saying TNG in HD would never happen because of the incredible amount of work it would take, and yet here we are almost at the end of the remastering process. I think we all need to take a step back and just breath a little and wait for something more than a vague tweet.

The "hand wringing" had nothing to do with the lack of an announcement of DS9--it was two posts by someone from Trekcore who has it on good authority that it probably won't be done. The person hasn't stated that it for sure isn't happening, but he's getting strong indications.

So this isn't a case of people just freaking out cause they haven't heard anything--it's a case of people being worried because they HAVE heard something.

Nothing wrong with keeping up the optimism though.

 

[Jefferies]

I'm also intrigued by the "middle way"—the very generous selection of 78 or so episodes as listed by Bolty at blu-ray.com.

This is an awful idea of a so called compromise. Of all the series DS9 is the one Star Trek that has proper internal continuity. The series doesn't work if you only have bits and pieces of it. It would work for Voyager and TNG but DS9 simply won't make proper sense if they do this.

 

[benjaminh]

I still think that if it costs XX dollars on average to do an episode, whatever that is, that doing 3/7ths of the whole show, about 40% of the best episodes, is likely to save CBS almost 60% of the cost compared to the whole show. Trekcore posted something a year ago that said that many of the digital assets still existed and had been "overbuilt"—and so with relatively mild work might still function today. Some new cgi stuff would need to be done, but much of it would be unique to each episode.

To be clear, I still would very much prefer that we get ALL season of DS9 in HD.

But if, only if, that's deemed a bridge too far and so not in the cards, rather than getting nothing of DS9 in HD, I think this selection does a nice job of it:

"Bolty" posted it at blu-ray.com:

1. Emissary part 1--pilot
2. Emissary part 2-- pilot
19. Duet--cardassian war criminal……..my fan choice #1
20. Hands of the Prophets--intro Kai Winn, season 1 ender
21. Homecoming--Bajoran coup trilogy 1,season 2 opener
22. Circle--part 2
23. Siege--part 3
39. Blood Oath--re-intro Kang, Kor and Koloth
40. Maquis part 1--intro of the maquis movement
41. Maquis part 2--
43. Crossover--first “mirror” episode
46. Jem’ Hadar--beginning of the Founders arc, season 2 ender
47. Search part 1--looking for the Jem’Hadar, season 3 opener
48. Search part 2--
51. Second Skin--Cardassian believes kira is his daughter…..my fan choice #2
55. Defiant--Riker returns……..my fan choice #3
60. Heart of Stone--founders trick Odo into professing love for Kira….my fan choice #4
65. Improbable Cause--major precursor to Founder war part 1
67. The Die is Cast--part 2
66. Thru the Looking Glass--part 2 of “mirror” arc (filmed in-between previous two-parter)
72. Adversary--season 3 ender, sets up Founder infiltration of federation.
73. Way of the Warrior part 1--start of Klingon civil war, Worf intro, season 4 opener
74. Way of the Warrior part 2
76. The Visitor--”old Jake” seeks his lost father……….my fan choice #5
79. Starship Down--iconic battle with Jem’ Hadar
80. Little Green Men--classic ferengi comedy episode…..my fan favorite #6
81. Sword of Kahless--part of “original klingons” arc
83. Homefront--founders infiltrate earth part 1
84. Paradise Lost--part 2
86. Return to Grace--key Dukat/Kira episode…..my fan favorite #7
87. Sons of Mogh--farwell to Kurn…..my fan favorite #8
92. Shattered Mirror--”mirror arc” part 3
94. For the Cause--key Maquis episode
96. To the Death--strong Jem’ Hadar episode
98. Broken Link--Odo becomes Human, season 4 ender
99. Apocalypse Rising--season 5 opener Klingon/Dominion
100. The Ship--Dominion face-off
102. Nor the Battle to the Strong--good rare Jake episode involving Klingons
104. Trials and Tribbleations--'Nuff said
111. For the Uniform--Maquis arc involving Eddington.
112. In Pugatory's Shadow--part 1 of classic Garak/DominionWorf prison story
113. By Inferno's Light--part 2 outstanding conclusion with Cardassia switching sides among many other themes.
119. Soldiers of the Empire--strong Worf/Martok Klingon episode
120. Children of Time--awesome Odo/alternate reality episode--my fan favorite choice******
121. Blaze of glory--Maquis/Eddington wrap up
122. Empok Nor--outstanding O'Brien/Garak episode--my fan favorite choice***********
124. Call to Arms--season 5 ender and official Dominion War start
125. Time to stand--season 6 opener DS9 under Dominion occupation & Sisko on secret mission
126. Rocks and Shoals-- conclusion to Sisko's mission, great microcosm of war story
128. Behind the Lines--the 'partisan' resistance on occupied DS9 begins in earnest
129. Favor the Bold--Sisko decides to retake DS9 as a symbolic victory in a war going badly
130. Sacrifice of Angels--part 2--Feds retake DS9 with much loss of life
131. You Are Cordially Invited--Worf/Dax wedding--My fan favorite choice
137. Far beyond the Stars--Fantastic period piece/alternate reality episode--my fan favorite******
138. One Little Ship--"Ant-Man" sized crew takes on Jem'Hadar
142. Inquisition--first "Section 31" episode
143. In the Pale Moonlight--Sisko makes morally questionable decision to save the federation, a great Garak episode (is there any other kind?)
146. Valiant--nice Jake/Nog episode with young crew fighting Dominion
150. Tears of the Prophets--farewell to Jadzia--season 6 ender
151. Image in the sand--season 7 opener parts--Sisko pursues his destiny
152. Shadows & Symbols--part 2 of sisko origin
157. Once More Into the Breach--wrap-up to the Kor "ancient warriors" arc featuring Dominion
158. Siege of AR-558--classic war is hell episode, very well done
162. Emperer's New Cloak--final "mirror" episode
166. Inter Arma Enim silent Leges--classic political treachery episode--my fan favorite*********
167-176 are the ten episode wrap to the war and the series and I don't think you can leave any out....

 

[TheSeeker]

It seems that CBS is getting cold feet when looking at the massive cost of redoing all seven seasons of DS9.

That is pure speculation. There seems to be a lot of had wringing over nothing at this point. We haven't even gotten Season Six of TNG yet, but now based on the fact that there has been no official announcement of DS9 on Blu-Ray you've decide CBS doesn't want to do it? It wasn't so long ago that people were saying TNG in HD would never happen because of the incredible amount of work it would take, and yet here we are almost at the end of the remastering process. I think we all need to take a step back and just breath a little and wait for something more than a vague tweet.

The "hand wringing" had nothing to do with the lack of an announcement of DS9--it was two posts by someone from Trekcore who has it on good authority that it probably won't be done. The person hasn't stated that it for sure isn't happening, but he's getting strong indications.

So this isn't a case of people just freaking out cause they haven't heard anything--it's a case of people being worried because they HAVE heard something.

Nothing wrong with keeping up the optimism though.

No, that is not what he said.

I feel the need to be a bit clearer about this as some fans have started to predict that DS9 could follow hot on the heals of TNG early next year. The reality is that getting such a project off the ground for a seamless transition from TNG is now VERY unlikely. There has been no green light, and with the speed things are moving, it is seeming increasingly likely that CBS Digital will wrap TNG and move on to other things by the time DS9 becomes any sort reality

All he is saying is that DS9 is unlikely to happen directly after TNG. No more. No less.

 

[benjaminh]

....All he is saying is that DS9 is unlikely to happen directly after TNG. No more. No less.

But that might be saying a lot.

FrontierTrek added that if the green light isn't given for DS9 that it might have implication for the whole "dream team" that they've built up for TNG.

Would that number of people at CBS-D be needed if they didn't have a project like TNG? Perhaps not. Reassembling a team like this is the future, although possible, might not be likely....

 

[SoM]

I still think that if it costs XX dollars on average to do an episode, whatever that is, that doing 3/7ths of the whole show, about 40% of the best episodes, is likely to save CBS almost 60% of the cost compared to the whole show.

Doesn't work like that. Firstly, all fixed ("sunk") costs would need to be paid, which wouldn't be trivial.

Secondly, 78/176 is 44.3%, so even on a linear scale that would only be a "saving" of 55%. Once you factor in costs like building CGI models and so forth, they'd easily be paying more than half the cost of doing the whole series for much less than half the return.

But if, only if, that's deemed a bridge to far and so not in the cards, rather than getting nothing of DS9 in HD, I think this selection does a nice job of it:

"Bolty" posted it at blu-ray.com:

And, even without further checking, "Dr Bashir, I Presume" is missed out, which makes a nonsense out of several later Bashir episodes, including the S31 eps. That hardly convinces that the "selection does a nice job of it" - what other holes would show up if I actually poked a bit?

 

[Robert Comsol]

What's still seems weird to me is this: DS9 is one of the best Treks made, in terms of writing, fx, sets, make-up, acting, etc. To make a show of this quality today would cost at least $3 million an episode, and probably more. Given that 176 episodes of DS9 were made, the show represents something like a half billion dollar investment. It probably made back all of that money from its original run, and from the DVD sales several years later. But still, they spent the equivalent of about $500 million dollars making one of the best science fiction shows ever—and now CBS can't come up the tiny fraction of that, whatever that is, to rebuilt it for HD?

That's an interesting point of view. I just hope that one or some of the decision makers of BABYLON 5 over at Warner Bros. is/are reading it, because the quality of the VFX on the current B5 DVDs is quite a scandal.

Bob