DS9 on blu ray?

[Grant]

But the process of what they are doing is an assembly line and it looks like they're shutting down that assembly line.

CBS waited three years between TOS-R and TNG-R. Some of the same people worked on both projects. Let's not be too cynical about this. We're swinging from over-enthusiasm to a tweet to utter despair at any chance of seeing DS9 on blu-ray. These companies thrive on their libraries of content and their ability to re-sell them over and over. Give it time. Only reason based on what you know to be true.

Here's what we know to be true: currently there's no green light for DS9. That's it.

The process of putting TOS in HD was completely different since it was shot and edited on film. Some of the people who did the new FX might be working on TNG, but the major component of the TNG project is finding and re-editing the raw footage.
That sounds like a highly specialized set of skills. If another series that was edited on tape wants to do something like has been done with TNG---those folks might be working somewhere else for a very long time.

And I was never confident about DS9 on Blu-ray and that press release didn't give me an ounce of hope.

I assumed it was a poorly worded bit of hype.

 

[Maxwell Everett]

The process of putting TOS in HD was completely different since it was shot and edited on film. Some of the people who did the new FX might be working on TNG, but the major component of the TNG project is finding and re-editing the raw footage.
That sounds like a highly specialized set of skills. If another series that was edited on tape wants to do something like has been done with TNG---those folks might be working somewhere else for a very long time.

By the time DS9 went into production, Kodak Keykode had become ubiquitous. Keykode was introduced in 1990 and it makes assembly of footage completely automated. It's true that assembling the first three seasons of TNG was very difficult, but that was partly because it was produced before Kodak keykode was available. If DS9 took advantage of that system, that streamlines things tremendously. It's probably one of the reasons HTV-Illuminate was able to complete nine seasons of The X-Files so relatively rapidly.

 

[trekker670]

That sounds like a highly specialized set of skills. If another series that was edited on tape wants to do something like has been done with TNG---those folks might be working somewhere else for a very long time.

I would beg to differ. Editing a show from raw negatives is what most editors do. The difference here is that they're doing it for a second time and have to match what was already done.

TNG was one of the first shows to do this, but since then there are a number of companies that are doing this process (as seen with TNG S2 and S4).

 

[thumbtack]

While I didn't think DS9 was likely based on the sales figures of TNG and Enterprise I've seen reported around the internet, this still bums me out.

CBS have been openly disappointed with those figures, but not as disappointed as me. Out of the five, DS9 was the only one I really wanted in HD.

I'm still crossing my fingers, but we may get an upconvert instead, which I'd be unlikely to buy.

.

 

[BillJ]

While I didn't think DS9 was likely based on the sales figures of TNG and Enterprise I've seen reported around the internet, this still bums me out.

CBS have been openly disappointed with those figures, but not as disappointed as me. Out of the five, DS9 was the only one I really wanted in HD.

I hadn't seen anything official from CBS.

I'm guessing that whatever Amazon is paying to stream TNG in HD wouldn't be enough to pay for the DS9 project (if they were to pay something comparable)?

 

[DS9forever]

"Move Along Home" will probably look great on Blu-ray, ironically. I think after "Emissary" it was the most expensive episode of the first season to film.

 

[Grant]

So then why are they saying that it would be more expensive to transfer DS9 than TNG was if it's actually the opposite.

I wish they were as informed as you guys!

 

[Maxwell Everett]

So then why are they saying that it would be more expensive to transfer DS9 than TNG was if it's actually the opposite.

I wish they were as informed as you guys!

The greater expense is due to the overall larger number of opticals and the switch to CGI in the final seasons. It actually doesn't cost CBS Digital much to transfer or scan the film negatives (other than paying technicians to operate the scanners) because they own the equipment outright -- a pair of 2K Spirit DataCine's. And, as I said, if they used the Kodak Keykode system while they were editing the show in the 90s, the conform (editorial assembly of the raw footage) will be a lot more straightforward.

It really is the VFX where the expense lies and the time it will take to reassemble and recreate it properly. But let's not forget that CBS Digital is owned by CBS Corp, so the studio is paying a subsidiary to do most of the work, unless they are forced (due to workload and time constraints) to go to outside vendors as they did with seasons 2 and 4 of TNG. I think what they are doing now is great, where they are slowing down, doing a season every six months and keeping all the work in house leading to lower costs and a better end product.

I say if they have to take a year off or whatever to break the monotony and do other stuff, good! They deserve it! I can wait. I don't want to wait, but if that's the way it has to be, I can. The workflow and new library of digital assets they created will still be there in a year's time. The film negatives will still be there. Many of their digital artists may still be there too considering CBS Digital is a union shop and they treat their artists well -- and there aren't many companies like that in the industry.

However many millions more the project will cost compared to TNG, CBS will eventually make it back and then some down the road, over the following five, ten years or whatever as they sell the show into worldwide syndication, streaming and digital downloads. CBS is doing very well financially by the way -- they certainly aren't hurting or strapped for cash or anything. CBS stock is up nearly 10 points compared to a year ago and their operating income and net earnings are up like 2% and 5% respectively.

So I say just hang on. TrekCore will have more info for us in the coming months. And even if the news comes out that DS9-R definitely will not get a green light following the end of TNG-R this year, that doesn't mean it will never, ever be done. I think it strains credulity to believe that CBS would let the 50th anniversary of Star Trek come and go without any new Blu-ray Trek product to buy. Consumer awareness will be at the highest level it's been for quite a while, especially with a new movie out that year (regardless of its quality).

 

[Grant]

So then why are they saying that it would be more expensive to transfer DS9 than TNG was if it's actually the opposite.

I wish they were as informed as you guys!

The greater expense is due to the overall larger number of opticals and the switch to CGI in the final seasons. It actually doesn't cost CBS Digital much to transfer or scan the film negatives (other than paying technicians to operate the scanners) because they own the equipment outright -- a pair of 2K Spirit DataCine's. And, as I said, if they used the Kodak Keykode system while they were editing the show in the 90s, the conform (editorial assembly of the raw footage) will be a lot more straightforward.

It really is the VFX where the expense lies and the time it will take to reassemble and recreate it properly. But let's not forget that CBS Digital is owned by CBS Corp, so the studio is paying a subsidiary to do most of the work, unless they are forced (due to workload and time constraints) to go to outside vendors as they did with seasons 2 and 4 of TNG. I think what they are doing now is great, where they are slowing down, doing a season every six months and keeping all the work in house leading to lower costs and a better end product.

I say if they have to take a year off or whatever to break the monotony and do other stuff, good! They deserve it! I can wait. I don't want to wait, but if that's the way it has to be, I can. The workflow and new library of digital assets they created will still be there in a year's time. The film negatives will still be there. Many of their digital artists may still be there too considering CBS Digital is a union shop and they treat their artists well -- and there aren't many companies like that in the industry.

However many millions more the project will cost compared to TNG, CBS will eventually make it back and then some down the road, over the following five, ten years or whatever as they sell the show into worldwide syndication, streaming and digital downloads. CBS is doing very well financially by the way -- they certainly aren't hurting or strapped for cash or anything. CBS stock is up nearly 10 points compared to a year ago and their operating income and net earnings are up like 2% and 5% respectively.

So I say just hang on. TrekCore will have more info for us in the coming months. And even if the news comes out that DS9-R definitely will not get a green light following the end of TNG-R this year, that doesn't mean it will never, ever be done. I think it strains credulity to believe that CBS would let the 50th anniversary of Star Trek come and go without any new Blu-ray Trek product to buy. Consumer awareness will be at the highest level it's been for quite a while, especially with a new movie out that year (regardless of its quality).

So if I understand.....

The re-editing of DS9 would be easier than the early seasons of TNG and the real expense will come in the later DS9 seasons that used primitive CGI?

Season 1 and 2 of DS9 were concurrent with TNG 6 and 7, so that would mean they would be exactly as expensive--at least for those 2 years and add the fact that DS9 season 1 was only 20 episodes it would be cheaper still for that first season.

I've heard no-one mention a DS9 sampler as TNG tried, I suppose, to test the waters.

If they held to form, they'd do the pilot, a praised but inexpensive episode like "The Visitor" and 1 action episode.

I'd buy that for 15 dollars. Just to have some DS9 on Blu-ray.

 

[DonIago]

You can't be that diehard a fan if you wouldn't even consider buying 2/7 of the series...that's almost 30%.

 

[FrontierTrek]

But the process of what they are doing is an assembly line and it looks like they're shutting down that assembly line.

CBS waited three years between TOS-R and TNG-R. Some of the same people worked on both projects. Let's not be too cynical about this. We're swinging from over-enthusiasm to a tweet to utter despair at any chance of seeing DS9 on blu-ray. These companies thrive on their libraries of content and their ability to re-sell them over and over. Give it time. Only reason based on what you know to be true.

Here's what we know to be true: currently there's no green light for DS9. That's it.

The status of the "assembly line" as Grant describes is obviously affected by DS9's lack of green light. Very shortly CBS Digital will wrap TNG. If they don't have a big project to take on afterwards then there are obviously consequences to that.

 

[benjaminh]

....
The status of the "assembly line" as Grant describes is obviously affected by DS9's lack of green light. Very shortly CBS Digital will wrap TNG. If they don't have a big project to take on afterwards then there are obviously consequences to that.

Yes. They've built up a very impressive and large "dream team" that really knows at this point how to rebuild an episode of Trek, as well as a whole season. I fear that if they don't start with DS9 soon that parts of the dream team will move on to other jobs, or perhaps even get laid off....

Obviously a full rebuild of DS9 would be ideal from the fan point of view, but short of that, what do you think, FrontierTrek, about the idea of a creating a c. 78 episode selection of the best of DS9? Over at blu-ray.com, "Bolty" has come up with what seems to me to be a very impressive list. It almost turns DS9 into a epic miniseries by collecting almost all the various arc episodes, as well as almost all of the favorite stand-alone episodes.

Perhaps redoing three sets of 26-episodes each of DS9 might, for CBS, seem like a more doable project?

Any thoughts?

 

[Tosk]

Pardon my language, but in my opinion it's a shit idea. It wouldn't help preserve the show in HD for TV broadcast, it would potentially sell even less than the full series (I don't want to be tortured for all time with a half-assed set, so I wouldn't buy it) and it would still take a bucket-load of money and resources to produce. What possible gain can come from that approach?

 

[benjaminh]

I agree that getting the full seven seasons rebuilt in HD for blu-ray and streaming would be better. But what if that's just not in the cards?

I think I read somewhere that rebuilding the first season of TNG ended up costing something like $9 million dollars. Don't have a link, and so don't ask. That was years ago. If, however, that figure is more or less right, we might also guess that they've had a learning curve and figured out how to do it better, faster, and for less money. Still, that might mean that rebuilding a whole season of Trek perhaps still costs c. $5 million? I realize I'm guessing, but in any case the figure is substantial. Whatever the number is, it really adds up when multiplied by 7 seasons.

Doing three seasons worth of episodes might save CBS almost c. 60% of the money needed compared to the whole show.

Again, I agree it would be better for them to do the whole show. But what if they can only see their way to budgeting enough for a portion of that? Wouldn't that be better than nothing of DS9 in HD?

Some people said the original Star Trek probably wouldn't work in syndication because they only had 79 episodes. But TOS, as we all know, ended up being the biggest success in syndication history. 70-some episodes in fact turned out to be quite a sweet spot.

The first two seasons of DS9, as almost every fan would admit, were the weakest. And yet there are essential and wonderful episodes in there in those first two seasons. Like with all Trek, and like with all television, there are duds with each season. The miracle of DS9 is that it arguably got stronger each season, and so the number of duds dropped each year.

I've heard from some Trek fans that they just couldn't quite get into DS9 as they struggled through the first two seasons, and so they gave up.

Anyway, I think as en epic 78-episode almost "miniseries" that DS9 might find new fans. And many old fans should be happy to have at least the best of the show in HD.

I'm tired, in any case, of watching the show in muddy SD....

And, yet again, I would rather see the whole show rebuilt for HD, if that's possible.

 

[Grant]

There are folks who think a partial set would exclude a future full 7 seasons and they are right.

So would you like to have a portion in the near future or gamble on all of it coming at some point?

Some people would clearly like to wait and get it all.

I don't think that will happen. I think we'll get nothing later.

So I'd love a best of set.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Give me all episodes in HD or nothing at all. There's no point in remastering a show if you're only going to hand pick certain episodes. It's a terrible idea.

 

[Skywalker]

Agreed. All or nothing. Even the bad episodes.

 

[Grant]

People who say all or nothing rarely expect to get nothing.

 

[BillJ]

Since we already have four of the six pilots in HD, I'd like to at least have "Emissary" and "Caretaker" get HD facelifts.

 

[LOKAI of CHERON]

I think I'll be more surprised if we get DS9/Voyager on Blu-ray at all at this point.

I understand no imminent announcement doesn't necessarily preclude a release down the road - "sometime". However, we have to consider the Blu-ray format has progressed well into its life-cycle. If I were to take a guess, I'd conjecture Blu-ray is already 60 years old in human terms.

The window of opportunity for this particular format is not everlasting. Diminishing returns as time ticks by etc.