Discovery ending with Season 5

[Jellico]

When we first watched Discovery on CBS All Access, I think… there were different ways to subscribe. My wife has Amazon but we subscribed directly to CBS All Access. That’s how a remember it anyway. So, she received a survey in her email from Discovery asking questions such as what characters were favored, etc. there were pictures of the characters and buttons you were able to make comments on why you liked the characters, etc. We were so taken with the new Trek content. On favorite characters we clicked “Other’ and explained, ‘we like them all.” This is how I remember it. The show runners, corporate, et Al, might have tweeked the show at the time based on fan input. Does anyone else remember anything like this? I thought this applied as a comment on this thread as season five might boldly go where no one thought before.

 

[Quantum21]

The fanbase is always split about something. Kurtzman is just the newest punching bag. Berman, Braga, Freiberger and Bennett have all held that title in the past.


Shows shift all the time. TOS was different show in season one than it was in seasons two and three. TNG changed over the years, same with all the shows.
Irony?

How is it "artistically flaw?" Trek has been doing this since TOS. Was the inclusion of POC characters in 1966 also "artistically flawed? Was addressing then current societal problems (the war, racism, the counter culture etcetera) also flawed?

And this is bad because....?

And this is different than the thought process that gave us black, Asian and disabled characters how?

No. Because there is nothing "artistically" wrong with have those characters. That they might be in badly written episodes is not about the characters.

Main angles of character development? No, LGBTQ+ characters are just characters who are LGBTQ+ in the same way the straight characters are just straight characters. Stamets and Culber interact the same as any other couple on the show. Same for Adira and Gray.

Kurtzman's greatest success was hiring excellent showrunners for each successive series.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Kurtzman's greatest success was hiring excellent showrunners for each successive series.

Which was his job once the new shows became reality.

 

[Quantum21]

Which was his job once the new shows became reality.

Yes, but he didn't hire Gretchen Berg and Aaron Harberts, Bryan Fuller did, so the choice he makes could be bad.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/t...overy-showrunners-alex-kurtzman-take-1120416/

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yes, but he didn't hire Gretchen Berg and Aaron Harberts, Bryan Fuller did, so the choice he makes could be bad.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/t...overy-showrunners-alex-kurtzman-take-1120416/

There's always that chance. But he brought in Goldsman, who gave us SNW and McMahan and the Hagemans, who gave us Lower Decks and Prodigy.

 

[Quantum21]

There's always that chance. But he brought in Goldsman, who gave us SNW and McMahan and the Hagemans, who gave us Lower Decks and Prodigy.

Goldsman also had a hand in most decisions fans loved about Discovery, SNW and Picard. I laugh when uninformed fans seem to think every series had new head writers and producers.

 

[Noname Given]

Space Zho Goa from the Qin Dynasty would be more accurate. But I agree with the broader point, a Section 31 series isn't happening. Not impossible, but I'd be surprised. From here on out, I don't think they're doing any live-action series that aren't SNW or some type of PIC spin-off with Legacy Characters. Like I said before, it's the end of an era.

Everything changed once they decided to downsize. They'll keep cutting back, ultimately sticking with what's considered safe and not polarizing to the audience. It's all pragmatic.

If they can do it and at this point the only questions are, can they still afford Michelle Yeoh, and can they fit it into her schedule in a decent time frame, the Section 31 series will be a SNW related series of sorts if they do it. Why do you think they bothered to involve the Guardian of Forever and send her back through time as the setup?

Paramount plus it does want to continue going with Star Trek, but if they're going to spend the money they're spending; they want a real bankable star at the head of any live action series they do going forward.

Like George Takei before them (who lobbied for years but never got to helm a USS Excelsior Star Trek series), sorry, but neither Jeri Ryan, Michael Dorn, Mary Wiseman or Todd Stashwick has enough name recognition or star power for the suits with money to say: Let's think a boatload of capital into another new Star Trek series.

And as for Kate Mulgrew, yeah she said an interview she might be interested in doing a live action series; but they already have a version of Janeway for Star Trek Prodigy, and that series is already doing quite well for them; so they may not want to have both a animated and live action series using the Captain Janeway character.

But yeah I'm a broken record at this point. But I really do believe if they do decide to do another Star Trek Live Action series, they really want to go with Michelle Yeoh as the lead in something Star Trek related, so they're going to exhaust all avenues on that before they go to something else.

 

[Lord Garth]

If they can do it and at this point the only questions are, can they still afford Michelle Yeoh, and can they fit it into her schedule in a decent time frame, the Section 31 series will be a SNW related series of sorts if they do it. Why do you think they bothered to involve the Guardian of Forever and send her back through time as the setup?

I think they intended to do a Section 31 series. Just like I think they didn't intend for Discovery to end with the fifth season. I think the cut-backs have forced them to change their game plan.

If DSC were planned to end at five seasons, they wouldn't have to do reshoots or shoot additional footage to tie up loose ends. Whatever the plan was one year ago, two years ago, three years ago, the situation has changed.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But if they actually are cutting back, I actually think they're more likely to keep the more conventional stuff and let go of what's more divisive. I like the conventional stuff but I'm not excited about it. The more conventional they go, the more I slowly lose interest. I would rather have a Section 31 series, personally (though I'd prefer an Assignment: Earth series if it were an option), but that's not what I'm reading from the tea leaves.

But if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. This is one of those situations where I wouldn't mind if I were wrong.

 

[eschaton]

Section 31, if it exists, will be 25th Century. Maybe including Georgiou, Worf, Raffi, and even Bashir.

 

[Tuskin38]

I can't see Worf, Raffi or Bashir working for S31. Against it, sure.

 

[Noname Given]

I think they intended to do a Section 31 series. Just like I think they didn't intend for Discovery to end with the fifth season. I think the cut-backs have forced them to change their game plan.

If DSC were planned to end at five seasons, they wouldn't have to do reshoots or shoot additional footage to tie up loose ends. Whatever the plan was one year ago, two years ago, three years ago, the situation has changed.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But if they actually are cutting back, I actually think they're more likely to keep the more conventional stuff and let go of what's more divisive. I like the conventional stuff but I'm not excited about it. The more conventional they go, the more I slowly lose interest. I would rather have a Section 31 series, personally (though I'd prefer an Assignment: Earth series if it were an option), but that's not what I'm reading from the tea leaves.

But if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. This is one of those situations where I wouldn't mind if I were wrong.

Paramount+ still plans to expand into the Asian market. With Michelle Yeoh as a lead on a Star Trek series, that would very much make an inroad into that market.

If they can't get Yeoh; and they are interested in doing two Live Action Trek series at once, given what they have, I could see them maybe approaching Scott Bakula and do one final nostalgic Star Trek: Enterprise period show.

Of course we could all be spinning our heels and they'll keep what they have going right now WRT Star Trek and pour more production money into another Yellowstone based franchise show. <--- This is the other currently hugely popular Paramount+ franchise that's going and really bringing in subs.

 

[Tuskin38]

Yeah I can't see Paramount leaving just one live action series on the air for long.

 

[Lord Garth]

Paramount+ still plans to expand into the Asian market. With Michelle Yeoh as a lead on a Star Trek series, that would very much make an inroad into that market.

If they do that, then it makes sense.

 

[Gary Seven of Nine]

There's always that chance. But he brought in Goldsman, who gave us SNW and McMahan and the Hagemans, who gave us Lower Decks and Prodigy.

And Matalas!

 

[HotRod]

I could see them maybe approaching Scott Bakula and do one final nostalgic Star Trek: Enterprise period show.

I would absolutely adore another series set in the "Enterprise era" with Scott Bakula.

It's not gonna happen.

 

[Quinton]

I think it's pretty neat that they get to go back behind the cameras and retool things to craft a more cohesive ending. We can sometimes, perhaps, lose sight of this positive tidbit since our beloved franchise isn't exactly the biggest and most mainstream one in the world, but... just by virtue of carrying that STAR TREK brand name, these shows get some neat perks.

Most TV shows whose plugs get pulled after a season's finished principal photography are just fucked, y'know?

 

[Dukhat]

I would absolutely adore another series set in the "Enterprise era" with Scott Bakula.

It's not gonna happen.

Agreed. They’re not going to make a show around the lead character from what they consider to be a failed show that nobody watched, even if the actor was Scott Bakula.

If they continue on with Trek at all, I see them putting all their marbles into SNW for the foreseeable future, and segueing that show into TOS 2.0, just like Abrams did with the Kelvin films.

 

[RuleofAcuisition17]

I think they intended to do a Section 31 series. Just like I think they didn't intend for Discovery to end with the fifth season. I think the cut-backs have forced them to change their game plan.

If DSC were planned to end at five seasons, they wouldn't have to do reshoots or shoot additional footage to tie up loose ends. Whatever the plan was one year ago, two years ago, three years ago, the situation has changed.

Except, I don't think is has particularly. You can go over to places like Rotten Tomatoes right now and see the heavily diminishing returns for Discovery specifically within the audience feedback and professional reviews of the shows.

For season 1, there were 373 professional reviews giving it a rating of 89%. Audience score showed how heavily divided fans and casual viewers were with 49% over 9329 audience members.

By season 4, this has dropped like a stone. Just 17 pro reviews giving it a similar 88%.

The audience? They ain't there no more. Leaving just 1004 review scores giving it an average of just 20%. Suggesting a staggering 80% of those who could be bothered to review it the first time really did walk away entirely.

Even when we take the shows as a whole, Discovery is the worst performing of the lot. 85% Pro, 36% audience.

Picard is second, with 90% pro and 55% audience, but we know they cooked the pro reviews on that for the first two seasons, just outright before the dirge of the mid-seasons took hold twice, damaging the faith in the reviews so much they gave them the majority of the season on season 3 to counter it. We also know this show is done after this.

Lower Decks sits at 89/71% Pro/audience.

Prodigy 94/74%

Then, the titan that stuck the landing hard. Strange New Worlds: 99/80%

Paramount's obviously looking at the figures for this show and for the budget of $130m+ a year? It's just not worth it.

Especially when their audience is clearly turning up for quite literally every other offering. Much like ENT's season 4, the money men and those who watch the "engagement" figures are saying Disco's the lame duck.

We're probably going to find Season 5 the best written season, just like we did Enterprise before it, but that's the breaks when you're kind of mortally wounded from the start.

EDIT: To further go on this. Your audience score really is the one that matters when said audience has to pay for it directly and not advertisers. They will quite cheerfully not click that show, and thus not assign watches to it, which will in turn determine if throwing money at it is worth it.

 

[Lord Garth]

Except, I don't think is has particularly. You can go over to places like Rotten Tomatoes right now and see the heavily diminishing returns for Discovery specifically within the audience feedback and professional reviews of the shows.

For season 1, there were 373 professional reviews giving it a rating of 89%. Audience score showed how heavily divided fans and casual viewers were with 49% over 9329 audience members.

By season 4, this has dropped like a stone. Just 17 pro reviews giving it a similar 88%.

The audience? They ain't there no more. Leaving just 1004 review scores giving it an average of just 20%. Suggesting a staggering 80% of those who could be bothered to review it the first time really did walk away entirely.

Even when we take the shows as a whole, Discovery is the worst performing of the lot. 85% Pro, 36% audience.

Picard is second, with 90% pro and 55% audience, but we know they cooked the pro reviews on that for the first two seasons, just outright before the dirge of the mid-seasons took hold twice, damaging the faith in the reviews so much they gave them the majority of the season on season 3 to counter it. We also know this show is done after this.

Lower Decks sits at 89/71% Pro/audience.

Prodigy 94/74%

Then, the titan that stuck the landing hard. Strange New Worlds: 99/80%

Paramount's obviously looking at the figures for this show and for the budget of $130m+ a year? It's just not worth it.

Especially when their audience is clearly turning up for quite literally every other offering. Much like ENT's season 4, the money men and those who watch the "engagement" figures are saying Disco's the lame duck.

We're probably going to find Season 5 the best written season, just like we did Enterprise before it, but that's the breaks when you're kind of mortally wounded from the start.

EDIT: To further go on this. Your audience score really is the one that matters when said audience has to pay for it directly and not advertisers. They will quite cheerfully not click that show, and thus not assign watches to it, which will in turn determine if throwing money at it is worth it.

I'm not talking about the audience, reviews, or punditry. I'm much like Allan Lichtman in this regard. I look at the Bigger Picture. I'm only talking what their plans were. I said the plans changed. I never said why. The plug wasn't pulled until after the fifth season "wrapped". They didn't go in knowing it would be the last. They have to make adjustments now that they know it is.

As far as reception, all that matters are the number of views an episode gets. Reviewers can think whatever they want, but if enough people are watching and they don't think they have enough episodes, they'll keep making more. If they're cutting back on streaming content, they'll look at what's easiest to cut. The easiest series to cut is the one with the most episodes. And also the one that's the most expensive. Picard was already ending. If they had to cut something else, Discovery was the choice that made the most sense.

If they went by what reviewers thought, TNG never would've made it out of its first season and Voyager wouldn't have lasted seven. All that matters are: are enough people watching, do they see a need to have more episodes than what already exists, and would the cost be worth it? The End.

I've never seen The Walking Dead, it's probably shit, it sounds like it is, but they made 11 seasons of it. I've never seen a Saw movie, it's not my type of thing. But how many have they made? I used to watch Transformers as a kid in the '80s, but I thought the Michael Bay movies were crap. At least the ones I saw. How many did they make? The Simpsons has been considered a "bad" show for more than twice as long as it was considered a "good" one. It's not ending. Quality doesn't matter. Views matter. How much money they make matters.

Discovery was the least like what a lot of Trekkies wanted. Anyone who says that didn't color their view at least a little bit is lying. People are harsher towards things they didn't want and are more forgiving of what they do want. That's not just with some Star Trek show, that's with life in general.

 

[donners22]

The audience? They ain't there no more. Leaving just 1004 review scores giving it an average of just 20%. Suggesting a staggering 80% of those who could be bothered to review it the first time really did walk away entirely.

Lower Decks sits at 89/71% Pro/audience.

Prodigy 94/74%

Then, the titan that stuck the landing hard. Strange New Worlds: 99/80%

Paramount's obviously looking at the figures for this show and for the budget of $130m+ a year? It's just not worth it.

Especially when their audience is clearly turning up for quite literally every other offering. Much like ENT's season 4, the money men and those who watch the "engagement" figures are saying Disco's the lame duck.

Hmm...you're using review numbers as the basis for audience, and cite Disco's review numbers as decisive in this respect, yet you are strangely silent on the numbers for the other series. Let's have a look...

PRO S1 - 154. Barely a ripple of interest.

LDS S1 - 795
LS S2 - 250
LDS S3 - 90. I say again, 90! You are going on about how staggering it was that Disco S4 had 80% fewer reviews by S4, yet LDS has barely a tenth by S3!

SNW S1 - 1,092. Fewer than 100 more than Discovery's oh-so-paltry S4 number, and in S1 no less - at the time when interest would likely be at its peak.. Quite the "titan" you have there.


As to scores, the people who review shows on sites like this are such a tiny fraction of the audience that I doubt the powers that be care, especially for a show which is prone to review-bombing by the "anti-woke" types like Disco.