Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST VI?

[The Rock]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

Well I don't see how prolonging hostilities is noble or admirable in any kind of way.

It certainly isn't. But are people who follow their self-interest plain bad? I am not ready to make such as a sweeping statement as I do not know what I would want if I worked in the military or in the weapons industry. I do not know if I really wanted peace after having spent decades in border skirmished with these foul-smelling brutes.

If the people who follow their self-interests do so at the expense of who-knows-how-many-lives, then yes I do think they are bad.

 

[DonIago]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

Tell it to Wall Street, heh.

 

[horatio83]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

Well I don't see how prolonging hostilities is noble or admirable in any kind of way.

It certainly isn't. But are people who follow their self-interest plain bad? I am not ready to make such as a sweeping statement as I do not know what I would want if I worked in the military or in the weapons industry. I do not know if I really wanted peace after having spent decades in border skirmished with these foul-smelling brutes.

If the people who follow their self-interests do so at the expense of who-knows-how-many-lives, then yes I do think they are bad.

Take a look at what real-world generals and officers do and talk to me again about bad people.
Take a look at the label of your clothes, think about the working conditions in these countries and talk to me again about bad people.
Take a look at what food subsidies and food derivatives cause in the Third World and talk to me against about bad people.

To say it with the words of the Danish prince, "use every man after his desert, and who should escape whipping?"

 

[Uxi]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

Liked. I was imagining Cartwright had just as many reasons as Kirk to hate the Klingons (probably crewman killed, etc. Imagine he would have been a Captain or Commodore himself around the time of Organia).

That said, reusing the racial language/cliches was dumb.

 

[Uxi]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

Now, can you imagine the apoplexy if one of the classic crew turned out to be the traitor?!

I always liked the idea of Pavel having a Piotr flashback.

Seriously! I just want a DVD of the theatrical version without the Colonel Odo/Scooby Doo ending and without the retarded flashes of the conspirators during the Spock/Valares mind meld.

Is that so much to ask?

Wasn't that the last release?

 

[Caligula]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

I didn't mind Adm. Cartwright turning out to be one of the conspirators. Seemed like he was being set up that way, so it didn't come as much of a shock either. I liked it a heck of a lot more than I would have if Nick Meyer's original plan of having Saavik as one of the conspirators had actually happened. That just wouldn't have made any sense to me, even with all that she was put through on Genesis in TSFS being kept in mind.

 

[horatio83]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

There was nothing wrong with Valeris but Saavik would have made Spock's disappointment and sense of betrayal far stronger. She viewed the Klingons as threat and like Cartwright she did not want peace. That was one of the points of the movie, that there are plenty of good reasons for war whereas peace requires a leap of faith.

 

[sonak]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

There was nothing wrong with Valeris but Saavik would have made Spock's disappointment and sense of betrayal far stronger. She viewed the Klingons as threat and like Cartwright she did not want peace. That was one of the points of the movie, that there are plenty of good reasons for war whereas peace requires a leap of faith.

also, Saavik would have been a genuine surprise. Valeris was too obvious.

 

[DarKush]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

I also didn't mind how Trek Lit. has made Cartwright a member of Section 31.

I would love to go back in time and kick whoever created Section 31 square in the nuts.

To each his/her own I guess. I like the concept of Section 31, even though I don't think the execution has always worked. I did enjoy the Section 31 novels, for the most part, particularly the TOS one that established Cartwright as a member of Section 31, if I recall correctly.

And once it was established by DS9 that Section 31 had been around a long time, Cartwright was one of the best candidates to make an operative retroactively. The conspiracy felt like something Section 31 would have been a part of.

 

[Oso Blanco]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

I was imagining Cartwright had just as many reasons as Kirk to hate the Klingons (probably crewman killed, etc. Imagine he would have been a Captain or Commodore himself around the time of Organia).

And then he conspires with the Klingons that he hates so much against his own people? I don't buy that.

And to be honest, I never understood that fear of "mothballing Starfleet", either ... as if Starfleet's whole purpose was to fight the Klingons! There were plenty of other hostile species out there, and what about exploring the galaxy? One more plothole in a movie that pretty much is one big plothole. I really used to like TUC, but the more I think about it, the less sense does it make.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

I was imagining Cartwright had just as many reasons as Kirk to hate the Klingons (probably crewman killed, etc. Imagine he would have been a Captain or Commodore himself around the time of Organia).

And then he conspires with the Klingons that he hates so much against his own people? I don't buy that.

And to be honest, I never understood that fear of "mothballing Starfleet", either ... as if Starfleet's whole purpose was to fight the Klingons! There were plenty of other hostile species out there, and what about exploring the galaxy? One more plothole in a movie that pretty much is one big plothole. I really used to like TUC, but the more I think about it, the less sense does it make.

Another character chimes in that their exploration efforts would be unaffected. And, I think, they're talking more about the political fallout with the "mothballing the fleet" comment. Whether money exists or not, arming for a possible conflict with the Klingons eats resources. Resources that I'm sure politicians and the public would think could be better used elsewhere. If a major portion of Starfleet's annual "budget" was used in their cold war with the Klingons, cutting it could have the effect of severely limiting their ability to defend the Federation from other aggressors.

That's just my take on it and yes, I love The Undiscovered Country.

 

[Uxi]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

I interpreted the Cartwright's (if not the rest of the Starfleet conspirators) thinking as something like "the idiot bleeding heart politicians are going to mothball the Fleet, the Klinks (or perhaps the Romulans) will then attack" as he outright says: "if we dismantle the fleet, we'd be defenceless before an aggressive species with a foothold on our territory. The opportunity here is to bring them to their knees. Then we'll be in a far better position to dictate terms."

IOW, he's Patton talking to the reporter about the Soviets after WW2. He's overruled, so proceeds with the conspiracy. Unlikely that he trusts Chang, but what does he have to lose? Probably thinking unlikely he'll get caught since Valeris could resist conventional interrogation.

Besides, the Federation President isn't his "own people." He's either a fool leading them to possible disaster or even a traitor with that thinking. He probably doesn't like sacrificing Kirk, but it's a piece on the board at that point.

 

[Oso Blanco]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

"if we dismantle the fleet, we'd be defenceless before an aggressive species with a foothold on our territory."

But peace with the Klingons wouldn't mean to dismantle the fleet, that's what I meant to say earlier. It's not as if Starfleets sole purpose was to keep the Klingons at bay. Did the USA desmantle their fleets when the cold war ended?

 

[Ian Keldon]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

I'll use another example: how many hetrosexual actors could play the part of a gay man (including portraying gay social relations) and not at least come off as a little uncomfortable?

Why should they feel uncomfortable? Even when playing a hetero character actors have to pretend to be interested/in love with people that they really aren't. Why should it matter what gender they are?

Again, that's why it is called "acting"

Because pretending a hetro attraction for a hetro actor is something he/she can relate to and has a basis for conceptualizing.

It don't work that way if you're asking them to portray "batting for the home team". It's completely outside their frame of reference, and for many deeply uncomfortable or outright offensive on a personal level.

And I would expect the same to be true for a gay actor being asked to portray a hetro relationship.

 

[Ian Keldon]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

But peace with the Klingons wouldn't mean to dismantle the fleet, that's what I meant to say earlier. It's not as if Starfleets sole purpose was to keep the Klingons at bay. Did the USA desmantle their fleets when the cold war ended?

Actually, we're in the middle of doing just that. The Navy active register is below 300 hulls for the first time in over 50 years and funding for our most "state of the art" ship programs (Seawolf, Zumwalt, etc) has dried up or been diverted.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

But peace with the Klingons wouldn't mean to dismantle the fleet, that's what I meant to say earlier. It's not as if Starfleets sole purpose was to keep the Klingons at bay. Did the USA desmantle their fleets when the cold war ended?

Actually, we're in the middle of doing just that. The Navy active register is below 300 hulls for the first time in over 50 years and funding for our most "state of the art" ship programs (Seawolf, Zumwalt, etc) has dried up or been diverted.

Yep.

The Undiscovered Country was simply showing the argument going on in the U.S. as the Soviet Union disintegrated.

 

[Oso Blanco]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

And I would expect the same to be true for a gay actor being asked to portray a hetro relationship.

That never seemed to be a real problem ... there haven been plenty of gay actors portraying hetero lovers, but not so much the other way around.

 

[Oso Blanco]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

Actually, we're in the middle of doing just that. The Navy active register is below 300 hulls for the first time in over 50 years and funding for our most "state of the art" ship programs (Seawolf, Zumwalt, etc) has dried up or been diverted.

That may well be, but I would hardly call it "dismanteling" or "mothballing" the fleet. It's budget is being cut down a bit, and that may also be due to the (worldwide) economical situation we're facing.

 

[sonak]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

"if we dismantle the fleet, we'd be defenceless before an aggressive species with a foothold on our territory."

But peace with the Klingons wouldn't mean to dismantle the fleet, that's what I meant to say earlier. It's not as if Starfleets sole purpose was to keep the Klingons at bay. Did the USA desmantle their fleets when the cold war ended?

Agreed. It's a stupid line. It's not like Klingons were the ONLY enemies of Starfleet.

 

[Uxi]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

The only ones to be feared perhaps. The Romulans are isolationist. Big enough to take seriously but not as big of an existential threat to the Federation itself as the Klingons. After all, if Pre-Federation Earth could beat them, that should give a sense of perspective on their size and scope. Everyone else known is relative small potatoes.