Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST VI?

[Ian Keldon]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

I don't quite get it, honestly. I mean, the dialog is supposed to be uncomfortable. If the audience isn't fazed by what the characters are saying then it's ineffective.

The audience, yes. The character as written was basically an anti-Klingon bigot.

The problem came in when you asked a black actor to say as dialogue the same sorts of things that have been said about black people.

It hit too close to home for Nichols and Brock Peters.

If you want your character to be a saint, then fine...but given these characters' prior experiences with the Klingons (and who knows what they might have gone through recently) I wasn't surprised that they might have become biased.

It's called acting.

Yes, and it's sometimes difficult.

I'll use another example: how many hetrosexual actors could play the part of a gay man (including portraying gay social relations) and not at least come off as a little uncomfortable?

 

[BillJ]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

...

All the Director's Cuts and Special Editions and such have convoluted the story to where you can't be sure what was in the original.

Seriously! I just want a DVD of the theatrical version without the Colonel Odo/Scooby Doo ending and without the retarded flashes of the conspirators during the Spock/Valares mind meld.

Is that so much to ask?

--Alex

Theatrical version is available on Blu-ray. It's also the only place to get the film in its original aspect ratio.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

I'll use another example: how many hetrosexual actors could play the part of a gay man (including portraying gay social relations) and not at least come off as a little uncomfortable?

Why should they feel uncomfortable? Even when playing a hetero character actors have to pretend to be interested/in love with people that they really aren't. Why should it matter what gender they are?

Again, that's why it is called "acting"

 

[BillJ]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

It hit too close to home for Nichols and Brock Peters.

Well, one was a consummate professional doing the job they were paid for, no matter how personally distasteful they found it and the other was Nichelle Nichols.

 

[Redfern]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

Oh, SNAP!

Sincerely,

Bill

 

[Captaindemotion]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

The S31 novels also link Admiral Dougherty to the organization. That bit is more sketchy, I admit. (Although I happen to agree with it.)

I don't. I can't remember if it was in the movie or the novelisation, but wasn't Dougherty's wife supposed to be terminally ill or to have died? I think a simple human explanation for his actions in that movie - namely that he wanted the planet's qualities to save lives, including those close to him - is much more effective than S31.

 

[DonIago]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

There's a difference between his personal motivations and his willingness to perform acts that go against Federation policy.

I could see him wanting to save his wife -and- working with S31 because they'd do what the Federation council wouldn't.

That being said, I liked the idea that the council had approved of this act, and it would have made for a much more provocative film if it became clear that while Picard's actions were well-intentioned, he wasn't going to be getting the backing of the Federation.

Of course, Dougherty deserved what he got just for wandering around on the Son'a ship with an obvious nutjob without even having a token security guard present.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

The S31 novels also link Admiral Dougherty to the organization. That bit is more sketchy, I admit. (Although I happen to agree with it.)

I don't. I can't remember if it was in the movie or the novelisation, but wasn't Dougherty's wife supposed to be terminally ill or to have died? I think a simple human explanation for his actions in that movie - namely that he wanted the planet's qualities to save lives, including those close to him - is much more effective than S31.

But... but... but... no one in the Federation ever does anything bad unless Section 31 is involved. Everyone is perfect, except the members of Section 31.

Yes, the death of Dougherty's wife makes for far better motivation for his actions in regards to the Ba'ku.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

Of course, Dougherty deserved what he got just for wandering around on the Son'a ship with an obvious nutjob without even having a token security guard present.

The whole mission was a clusterfuck of stupidity. Why hide a spaceship under water to begin with?

 

[DonIago]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

...because it's more creative than hiding it on top of a mountain?

Though you'd think the Baku might have noticed the sudden water displacement...ooh, that's geekier than I normally get.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

...because it's more creative than hiding it on top of a mountain?

Though you'd think the Baku might have noticed the sudden water displacement...ooh, that's geekier than I normally get.

But the whole idea is that its a spaceship... with transporters. There was no need to land it at all.

 

[DonIago]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

I was asking rhetorically.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

I was asking rhetorically.

Rhetorically or not, the plot of the movie hinges on a rather large piece of stupidity. It's a stupidity of mind-blowing proportions. It's not like they're afraid the Ba'ku might pick it up on some type of sensor network, they already have three S'ona battleships floating around in orbit without cloaking devices. It's not like there's an issue beaming people up from the surface, we see people beam back and forth with ease.

 

[horatio83]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

As much as I love ST VI, it has always bothered me that Admiral Cartwright turned out to be one of the conspirators in ST VI. I thought his character was great in ST IV and always wished that he hadn't turned bad.

How about you?

Unlike Colonel Whatever, play by Auberjonois, Cartwright wasn't a joke of a character. I do not like 'villains who twirl their mustaches' or put tattoos on their faces so I liked that Cartwright turned out to be a conspirator.
Bad is a matter of perspective as Kirk didn't differ very much from these guys in the very beginning.

 

[DarKush]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

I liked Cartwright's villainous turn in Star Trek IV. Instead of just some random admiral having a recurring character be one of the chief conspirators was a good move. I also didn't mind how Trek Lit. has made Cartwright a member of Section 31.

 

[The Rock]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

As much as I love ST VI, it has always bothered me that Admiral Cartwright turned out to be one of the conspirators in ST VI. I thought his character was great in ST IV and always wished that he hadn't turned bad.

How about you?

Unlike Colonel Whatever, play by Auberjonois, Cartwright wasn't a joke of a character. I do not like 'villains who twirl their mustaches' or put tattoos on their faces so I liked that Cartwright turned out to be a conspirator.
Bad is a matter of perspective as Kirk didn't differ very much from these guys in the very beginning.

Oh come on, the people in on the conspiracy were bad, plain and simple. I mean you had members of Starfleet and the Klingons willing to kill their own just to prolong a conflict. And for what? What would've been the point of prolonging hostilities between the Klingons and the Federation? What's so bad about peace?

 

[horatio83]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

In real life there are plenty of examples of military folks wanting to prolong hostilities. And of course it is never just the military people, it is also the weapons industry, the people who work there and so on. War is a good business. I hope this answers your last question.
In the history of your own country there are also examples of military guys wanting to explicitly provoke a war.

What happens in TUC, prolonging a cold war, is somewhere in between.

I am usually the first one to bitch about the military and the nasty things they are up to but I would think twice about calling millions of people plain and simply bad.


Back to Cartwright, I do not think he is bluffing when he calls the Klingons trash in the conference. He might work together with some Klingons like Chang precisely to keep all Klingons at bay. Like Kirk he just might not like them. Sure, Meyer's movie have strong militaric notes and there is the talk about mothballing Starfleet so it might impact his career but I doubt that it is his only motivation. Seems like a mixture of self-interest and hatred.
The beauty of TUC is that it makes this hatred understandable. These brutes are clearly not guys you would want for dinner. And then it shows how the protagonist overcomes this.

 

[The Rock]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

In real life there are plenty of examples of military folks wanting to prolong hostilities. And of course it is never just the military people, it is also the weapons industry, the people who work there and so on. War is a good business. I hope this answers your last question.
In the history of your own country there are also examples of military guys wanting to explicitly provoke a war.

What happens in TUC, prolonging a cold war, is somewhere in between.

I am usually the first one to bitch about the military and the nasty things they are up to but I would think twice about calling millions of people plain and simply bad.


Back to Cartwright, I do not think he is bluffing when he calls the Klingons trash in the conference. He might work together with some Klingons like Chang precisely to keep all Klingons at bay. Like Kirk he just might not like them. Sure, Meyer's movie have strong militaric notes and there is the talk about mothballing Starfleet so it might impact his career but I doubt that it is his only motivation. Seems like a mixture of self-interest and hatred.
The beauty of TUC is that it makes this hatred understandable. These brutes are clearly not guys you would want for dinner. And then it shows how the protagonist overcomes this.

Well I don't see how prolonging hostilities is noble or admirable in any kind of way.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

I also didn't mind how Trek Lit. has made Cartwright a member of Section 31.

I would love to go back in time and kick whoever created Section 31 square in the nuts.

 

[horatio83]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

Well I don't see how prolonging hostilities is noble or admirable in any kind of way.

It certainly isn't. But are people who follow their self-interest plain bad? I am not ready to make such as a sweeping statement as I do not know what I would want if I worked in the military or in the weapons industry. I do not know if I really wanted peace after having spent decades in border skirmished with these foul-smelling brutes.
I'd rather side with Eisenhower, it is most likely a structural problem instead of a matter of a few bad people.