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Spoilers Did Picard finally ''right the ship'' with Picard season 3?

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This is the part that drives me most crazy. Trauma is not nihilism; it is a sad part of current life. Stories that ignore it, gloss over it, belittle it, distract from it, diminish the power that a story has to show someone facing intense trauma, rising above it, and recognizing it for what it did to them as a person.

I was rewawtching Discovery season 3 and I love the scene with Burnham and Georgiou, as Georgiou finally realizes the value in the compassion and empathy that she had buried due to her upbringing. It's a painful reality for many and yet stories tell us that doesn't have to be the end.

That's not nihilism; that is a great truth!

If Georgiou had truly realized 'compassion and empathy' suddenly, she would have been horrified by the fact that she spent decades murdering (and eating) several thousands of innocent sentient beings.

The whole supposed 'redemption' of Space Hitler was silly at best.

Such schlock. :lol:
 
If Georgiou had truly realized 'compassion and empathy' suddenly, she would have been horrified by the fact that she spent decades murdering (and eating) several thousands of innocent sentient beings.

That is indeed what happened in "Terra Firma, Parts I & II."
 
I'm not going to waste time defending that when there's plenty of well-expressed criticism for that season out there, which I'm sure you've watched.
That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
There's also Admiral Clancy's nihilistic and hopeless take on Starfleet, almost reminiscent of all the questionable views that Jonathan and Martha gave to Snyder's homicidal Superman.
Except, this is demonstrated to be wrong and Clancy is wrong and changes. This is optimistic rather than nihilistic. Season 1, like 3, unpacks some measure of consequences for a Starfleet post Borg, post Dominion War, post Romulan crisis.
 
Georgiou had truly realized 'compassion and empathy' suddenly, she would have been horrified by the fact that she spent decades murdering (and eating) several thousands of innocent sentient beings.
She does. Terra Firma is encapsulating TOS style optimism that humans are savage but can change, evolve even.

It's excellent.
 
Sure, but no one has to listen to you if you won't actually defend your assertions.

You'll listen. Your choice to reply ;)

And I don't have to prove anything to 4-5 individuals on here, lol. Picard S1's reputation speaks for itself, and there are enough popular, lengthy critiques out there, widely viewed.... which again, I'm sure you've seen.

So no need to pretend like you don't know all the things I would have listed, and it's a long list.

The problem with your comparison, of course, is that the part of the point of PIC S1 is that Clancy was wrong, and she comes to realize and take responsibility for her mistake. Whereas Snyder's films never frame Jonathan's and Martha's words as a wrong or a mistake to be overcome.

Does she actually really take responsibility? She tells Picard to "Shut the Fuck Up" and only steps up when she was backed into a corner, never actually admitting any wrongdoing. So the show doesn't try to frame her as 'wrong.'

Heck, there are a few individuals on this forum that were actually defending Clancy's stance. Just the same you'll find the Snyder die-hards who defend the nihilistic takes on Jonathan and Martha.
 
Heck, there are a few individuals on this forum that were actually defending Clancy's stance. Just the same you'll find the Snyder die-hards who defend the nihilistic takes on Jonathan and Martha.
Well, if more people like it then it will become right. That's how this works, so I'm told.
 
She does. Terra Firma is encapsulating TOS style optimism that humans are savage but can change, evolve even.

It's excellent.

If she truly changed, she'd want to take responsibility for her horrific crimes... instead of trying to save herself and slinking away.

It was the typical awkward unearned attempts at emotions, tears and melodrama that you find on Discovery.

Since we don't know you, no we don't know.

Why do you generally tend to quote posts that aren't even directed at you?

lol.

Like seriously.
 
And I don't have to prove anything to 4-5 individuals on here, lol. Picard S1's reputation speaks for itself, and there are enough popular, lengthy critiques out there, widely viewed.... which again, I'm sure you've seen.

Then why even waste your time at all? It’s also pretty presumptuous to suggest we’ve seen these videos. Haven’t you noticed that most of us don’t take YouTube videos seriously?
 
Does she actually really take responsibility? She tells Picard to "Shut the Fuck Up" and only steps up when she was backed into a corner, never actually admitting any wrongdoing.

And she uses a clearly kind, respectful tone of voice in telling him to shut up (the intention being to draw an ironic contrast between the literal words and the actual meaning behind them); she believes his claims, supports his decision to protect the Coppelius Androids from the Zhat Vash, and sends a huge armada of Starfleet's newest ships at the time to protect Coppelius.

That is clearly a recognition that she did wrong and an act of taking responsibility for her bad choices.

So the show doesn't try to frame her as 'wrong.'

Of course it does. From "Remembrance" onwards, the Federation's decision to abandon the Romulan Rescue effort is framed as a bad thing, and her attempt to defend that decision is framed as clearly wrong.

Heck, there are a few individuals on this forum that were actually defending Clancy's stance.

Were they defending her stance on abandoning the Romulans, or were they defending her belief that Jean-Luc was behaving arrogantly? Because she can be right about Jean-Luc and wrong about the Romulans, all in the same scene.
 
Then why even waste your time at all? It’s also pretty presumptuous to suggest we’ve seen these videos. Haven’t you noticed that most of us don’t take YouTube videos seriously?

A few of you don't, and it tends to be the same few. Others however.

I don't believe that you guys are completely ignorant to the criticism for Picard S1. Most have seen the reviews. I buy that you are choosing to ignore them.

If I'm in agreement with RLM for example on Picard S1's failings, it's fine. It's not going to convince any of you few otherwise. That's why I'm not wasting time on it. Picard S1 is done, it's written. It did what it did and was received the divisive way it was.

Let's move forward.
 
She literally does just that in "Terra Firma."

Did she actually want to kill herself? I can't recall most of S3. That was the one with the Burn and the screaming child.. lol. That's when I was done with that show. It had gotten too unintentionally ridiculous.
 
A few of you don't, and it tends to be the same few. Others however.

I don't believe that you guys are completely ignorant to the criticism for Picard S1. Most have seen the reviews. I buy that you are choosing to ignore them.

If I'm in agreement with RLM for example on Picard S1's failings, it's fine. It's not going to convince any of you few otherwise. That's why I'm not wasting time on it. Picard S1 is done, it's written. It did what it did and was received the divisive way it was.

Let's move forward.

I’m all for moving forward. But there has to be acceptance that Star Trek is a big tent. And enough sniping on both sides. Picard as a whole is behind us. And Star Trek is about looking forward. Let’s do so.
 
Except, this is demonstrated to be wrong and Clancy is wrong and changes. This is optimistic rather than nihilistic. Season 1, like 3, unpacks some measure of consequences for a Starfleet post Borg, post Dominion War, post Romulan crisis.
The problem with that is that whatever changes or reforms that might happen in Starfleet or Federation society that come about in season 1 is not earned through the plot.

First of all, the entire thing basically shits on TNG's "Measure of a Man" to get its conflict. Remember that great Picard speech and the judge's decision about the rights of synthetic life-forms like Data? Throw all of that out of the window.

Moreover, there's nothing shown on-screen in season 1 to earn any redemption that points to optimism. Clancy sits in her office in the very first episode and asserts that the Federation and Starfleet get to "choose" which species lives and dies to justify abandoning the Romulans. Nothing that happens over the course of the rest of the season shows in any way the Federation or Starfleet changing from that genocidal notion.

The only thing that happens is a Scooby-Doo villain reveal to the rest of the galaxy that "Oh my god, it was a Romulan cult!" with the attack on Mars, and we're told changes are being done.
 
Did she actually want to kill herself?

She was willing to sacrifice her life to try to save others and try to reform the Terran Empire.

I can't recall most of S3. That was the one with the Burn and the screaming child.. lol. That's when I was done with that show.

You should try engaging with the material.

It had gotten too unintentionally ridiculous.

Ridiculous? Like a team-up between the Borg Queen and Changelings allowing for the instant transformation of every young person in Starfleet into a mindless zombie? Ridiculous, huh? ;)

Sometimes ridiculous can still be good, as I'm sure Terry Matalas would point out.
 
I can believe that. I’ve not seen his take on Twelve Monkeys but it is quite highly regarded.

That IS a wonderful show. Very character focused. You will really exercise your brain a lot during the series due to the time travel aspect, but that's pretty much all time travel in general. This is just ramped up to a higher degree.

Bottom line, highly recommend watching.
 
The problem with that is that whatever changes or reforms that might happen in Starfleet or Federation society that come about in season 1 is not earned through the plot.

First of all, the entire thing basically shits on TNG's "Measure of a Man" to get its conflict. Remember that great Picard speech and the judge's decision about the rights of synthetic life-forms like Data? Throw all of that out of the window.

I'm afraid you are mis-remembering "The Measure of a Man." The JAG in that episode does not rule that Data is a full and complete legal equal of all sapient beings. She rules very narrowly that Data is not the property of Starfleet and therefore may legally resign his commission. That's it. That's the full extent of her ruling. That's why, twelve years later, the Federation was using EMHes for slave labor in VOY "Author, Author." Because, unfortunately, the Federation's rulings on A.I. rights were incomplete and inconsistent.

So PIC S1 didn't "shit on" "The Measure of a Man." It accurately and faithfully followed up on what canon had already established in 2001: that Data's victory in "Measure" was incomplete.

Also, real history is full of marginalized people winning some of their rights, and then seeing major backlashes. The 13th and 14th Amendments to the U.S. Constitution were followed by almost a century of Jim Crow, after all. So the idea that there would be a major setback for A.I. rights even after Data's and the Doctor's partial victories in "Measure" and "Author" is, in fact, quite realistic.

Moreover, there's nothing shown on-screen in season 1 to earn any redemption that points to optimism. Clancy sits in her office in the very first episode and asserts that the Federation and Starfleet get to "choose" which species lives and dies to justify abandoning the Romulans. Nothing that happens over the course of the rest of the season shows in any way the Federation or Starfleet changing from that genocidal notion.

The entire point of the season is that Picard and company prove to the Federation that that kind of nationalism and bigotry is harmful and self-destructive.

The only thing that happens is a Scooby-Doo villain reveal to the rest of the galaxy that "Oh my god, it was a Romulan cult!" with the attack on Mars, and we're told changes are being done.

It is fair to argue that PIC S1 should have shown more of the pro-A.I. rights legal reforms happening beyond the purview of La Sirena. It's even fair to argue that it externalized that bigotry too much by having the Zhat Vash be responsible for the Mars Attack. But nonetheless, the point of the season is that the Federation realizes that their anti-A.I. bigotry had been artificially enflamed by hostile foreign manipulation that also led to thousands of their own deaths, and that by indulging in that bigotry they had played right into the Zhat Vash's hands. They realized, in other words, that their bigotry and nationalism had been self-destructive -- just as the Zhat Vash's own anti-A.I. bigotry was self-destructive (their willingness to sacrifice Romulus in the name of fighting A.I.). The season did the work, and in doing so the season absolutely rejected the philosophy of nihilism that Snyder's works so often embrace.
 
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