Spoilers Did Picard finally ''right the ship'' with Picard season 3?

[fireproof78]

I do think PIC S3 deserves credit for the new things it does. It does give a new level of depth and sophistication to the TNG characters, because narratively it would be impossible not to in modern television. But the two ultimate goals of the season were #1 to get the TNG crew back on the Enterprise-D bridge and #2 evolve Jean-Luc into being a Good Dad. #2 is new, #1 is not. The band got back together to play all their biggest hits plus one new song, their last new song.

And I will grant that I do think that Season 3 did well to explore consequences of the narrative world. It just fell back on the Enterprise D crew as "the most important thing" and thus that became the driving focus by the end. And that's unfortunate for me because what was occurring up to that point was very entertaining.

 

[Sci]

And I will grant that I do think that Season 3 did well to explore consequences of the narrative world. It just fell back on the Enterprise D crew as "the most important thing" and thus that became the driving focus by the end. And that's unfortunate for me because what was occurring up to that point was very entertaining.

I am not too proud to admit that having the TNG crew reunite aboard the Enterprise-D worked on me. 100%. I was an easy artistic lay for that one. But I knew I was being an easy lay.

 

[TerryTrek]

I think I can extend your metaphor here to make a point.

I agree with you that PIC S3 could be equated to The Avengers. The issue is, PIC S1 was The Dark Knight. And the people who liked PIC S1 wanted PIC S3 to be more akin to Logan than The Avengers (or Avengers: Endgame if you want to make the comparison more literal).

The Dark Knight has near insane levels of fan and audience support. Borderline religious. Picard S1 though... haha.

 

[fireproof78]

I am not too proud to admit that having the TNG crew reunite aboard the Enterprise-D worked on me. 100%. I was an easy artistic lay for that one. But I knew I was being an easy lay.

And the reactions I saw around here did not surprise me one iota. It was designed a certain way, hit the feels the right way, and many people enjoyed it. But, I would hope that we would not want a verbatim scene on Voyager with Chakotay going "We're the crew of Voyager. We stand together." and then blow shit up. That's, well, it's something but not something I would say appeals on the Trek side of things all the time.

 

[Sci]

The Dark Knight has near insane levels of fan and audience support. Borderline religious. Picard S1 though... haha.

Irrelevant, because I am comparing The Dark Knight to PIC S1 in terms of narrative function and artistic goals, not in terms of audience reaction.

To repeat the comparison: People like me are glad that PIC S1 was more like The Dark Knight than The Avengers, and we wish S3 had been more like Logan than Avengers: Endgame.

 

[hellojane]

I mean, for the kind of story PIC S3 is trying to be -- a good time watching the band get back together -- then popularity is a fairly important metric of success. If large numbers of people aren't having fun watching the Beatles reunite to play their biggest hits one last time, then the concert isn't doing what it's setting out to do.

But, "getting the band back together to play their greatest hits one last time" is not a particularly deep or artistically meritorious kind of concert. It's not the kind of concert that's going to do all that much that's new or challenge its audience.

Totally agree! If this season's whole goal was to give everyone a chance to see them again and end everyone on a happy note, then yes it succeeded. Again, I enjoyed the season and am happy for the most part.

However I think there's a difference between saying this season is great because it made people feel good and this season is great because of a good story. No one would deny the first point I don't think. It succeeded there. Where I think people are disagreeing is if the story was good and up to what one would hope for their reunion. I feel like it succeeded in giving everyone what they wanted in a reunion while also serving up a rather basic story. Some people here (not you obviously) are arguing that who cares about the story or that story was good just because it's popular. I don't think that's fair.

 

[fireproof78]

However I think there's a difference between saying this season is great because it made people feel good and this season is great because of a good story. No one would deny the first point I don't think. It succeeded there. Where I think people are disagreeing is if the story was good and up to what one would hope for their reunion. I feel like it succeeded in giving everyone what they wanted in a reunion while also serving up a rather basic story. Some people here (not you obviously) are arguing that who cares about the story or that story was good just because it's popular. I don't think that's fair.

Again, you phrase it quite well.

The biggest take away from me in Season 3 is that the band back together was super fun. But, it did nothing to set up the future, except say the future is to call back to the past. Jack is not an interesting character in his own right, and his past sins are more than easily swept under the rug and ignored, rather than exploring potentially interesting character drama.

It's all way too nice and neat for me to go "Yup, give me Legacy." I don't know what Legacy would be beyond looking backwards with fond memories, and sighing in simple pleasure.

 

[TerryTrek]

Irrelevant, because I am comparing The Dark Knight to PIC S1 in terms of narrative function and artistic goals, not in terms of audience reaction.

To repeat the comparison: People like me are glad that PIC S1 was more like The Dark Knight than The Avengers, and we wish S3 had been more like Logan than Avengers: Endgame.

When it comes to artistic goals, it's quite relevant. Given the divisive reception to Pic S1. TDK and Logan have received near unanimous praise, so the artistic goals were achieved.

As Echostation mentioned on this forum (and it was worded quite well), Pic S1 aimed high (sure) but executed it all poorly. A mess.

There were mainly elements of S3 that played it safe. However, it was done in a competent manner that worked for most audiences and was satisfying. It was Avengers Endgame.

If anything Picard S1 is more like the Zack Snyder DC films. BvS.

 

[Sci]

When it comes to artistic goals, it's quite relevant. Given the divisive reception to Pic S1. TDK and Logan have received near unanimous praise, so the artistic goals were achieved.

As Echostation mentioned on this forum (and it was worded quite well), Pic S1 aimed high (sure) but executed it all poorly. A mess.

In what manner? Explain.

If anything Picard S1 is more like the Zack Snyder DC films. BvS.

Absolutely not. Snyder's films are implicitly nihilistic; PIC S1 is existentialist, not nihilist. PIC S1 goes out of its way to reject the kind of nihilism in which Snyder's films revel.

 

[hellojane]

Indeed. The relationship between her and Geordi is warm enough but it's basic. There's a character there in so far as

Agreed. The actress is great and made the best of what she had, but acting like there was great character there is...not it. Again, we barely know anything about her and she was there for ten episodes standing around. Being a good pilot and loving her dad isn't anything to write home about. We barely know anything about Jack either. I guess you could argue it doesn't matter much with Sidney because she wasn't meant to be a main character, but I do think it's an issue with Jack if they want us to be invested in him for the future. So he's a former criminal and he was hearing the Borg in head till he stomped off after a tantrum and almost started a war? And now he loves Picard after knowing him a week and everything is fine? Not exactly great character work there.

I felt like we knew pretty much who Troi and Riker's kids were, what they were like, and their characters after only one episode in season 1. I can't say that about the ones in this season.

 

[TerryTrek]

In what manner? Explain.

Explain how Picard S1 was a mess? There is an overwhelming majority of video reviews on that topic out there which would do it more justice than a few typed words on this forum. I'm just glad S3 was able to use some of those story beats and make something good out of them, even Picard's controversial robot body storyline.

Absolutely not. Snyder's films are implicitly nihilistic; PIC S1 is existentialist, not nihilist. PIC S1 goes out of its way to reject the kind of nihilism in which Snyder's films revel.

There's room to argue that many elements of S1 (and Discovery) are quite nihilistic, the brutal murders, the eye torture, romulan witches ripping their skin off, all the characters being emotionally scarred by trauma (even Rios.. which was totally unnecessary, his Captain killed himself?) etc. Seven had a very broken, hopeless, nihilistic attitude in S1,and I found that rather disappointing compared to where Voyager left her off. I agree there are some existentialist elements as well. Ultimately Snyder is another one who had lofty artistic ambitions, but ultimately didn't know how to make a product that was satisfying, popular and successful for majority mass audiences. There's gotta be the right balance.

 

[Campe]

Explain how Picard S1 was a mess? There is an overwhelming majority of video reviews on that topic out there which would do it more justice than a few typed words on this forum.

Why is it so much to actually ask someone to articulate their argument? I’m sorry, but I find “Go look it up on YouTube” to be a terribly lazy style of debate.

 

[fireproof78]

all the characters being emotionally scarred by trauma (even Rios.. which was totally unnecessary, his Captain killed himself?) etc. Seven had a very broken, hopeless, nihilistic attitude in S1,and I found that rather disappointing compared to where Voyager left her off.

This is the part that drives me most crazy. Trauma is not nihilism; it is a sad part of current life. Stories that ignore it, gloss over it, belittle it, distract from it, diminish the power that a story has to show someone facing intense trauma, rising above it, and recognizing it for what it did to them as a person.

I was rewawtching Discovery season 3 and I love the scene with Burnham and Georgiou, as Georgiou finally realizes the value in the compassion and empathy that she had buried due to her upbringing. It's a painful reality for many and yet stories tell us that doesn't have to be the end.

That's not nihilism; that is a great truth!

 

[Set Harth]

Snyder's films are implicitly nihilistic

Not really.

we wish S3 had been more like Logan than Avengers: Endgame.

Patrick Stewart gets killed by a tree stump?

 

[Sci]

Explain how Picard S1 was a mess? There is an overwhelming majority of video reviews on that topic out there which would do it more justice than a few typed words on this forum. I'm just glad S3 was able to use some of those story beats and make something good out of them, even Picard's controversial robot body storyline.

Yeah, no. Either defend your assertion or stop making it.

There's room to argue that many elements of S1 (and Discovery) are quite nihilistic, the brutal murders, the eye torture, romulan witches ripping their skin off, all the characters being emotionally scarred by trauma (even Rios.. which was totally unnecessary, his Captain killed himself?) etc. Seven had a very broken, hopeless, nihilistic attitude in S1,and I found that rather disappointing compared to where Voyager left her off. I agree there are some existentialist elements as well.

PIC S1 has many elements of trauma, it is true. But PIC S1 is about how we all need to make the choice to keep living in spite of that pain; Snyder's films are all about how life is futile because of pain. If there's any one quote that encompasses the philosophy of Snyder's films, it's this one: "We're already dead." If there's any one quote that encompasses the themes of PIC S1, it's this one: "The wind rises; we must try to live."

 

[Campe]

I think one major point needs to be restated: I don’t think a lot of people are suggesting that Picard season 3 is awful television. I think it has a few awful entries but generally it works okay as a whole. But it does nothing particularly new. It’s entire design is based on nostalgia. And if that’s what you want, great. Personally, as I’ve read others say, I’d agree that the return to Enterprise-D with the crew I grew up with to be a lot of fun.

But the rest of it did nothing for me personally. (Save maybe Captain Seven.) That doesn’t make it bad television. Just not overly compelling television. If it was bad TV, I would have stopped watching around episode 6. But I kept tuning in. That does say something for sure. Like I said above, this is very much a warm blanket. And if that’s what you like, great. I think most of us here who aren’t giving it universal praise just would like to be challenged a bit more. That’s not a bad thing.

 

[TerryTrek]

Yeah, no. Either defend your assertion or stop making it.

Yeah no. There's no rules saying that's how it works here. This isn't the court. I'm not going to waste time defending that when there's plenty of well-expressed criticism for that season out there, which I'm sure you've watched.

Besides, in all honestly... the list would be too long.

PIC S1 has many elements of trauma, it is true. But PIC S1 is about how we all need to make the choice to keep living in spite of that pain; Snyder's films are all about how life is futile because of pain. If there's any one quote that encompasses the philosophy of Snyder's films, it's this one: "We're already dead." If there's any one quote that encompasses the themes of PIC S1, it's this one: "The wind rises; we must try to live."

Snyder's characters ultimately try to carry on though. Both are equally emo depictions of these iconic characters sadly.

There's also Admiral Clancy's nihilistic and hopeless take on Starfleet, almost reminiscent of all the questionable views that Jonathan and Martha gave to Snyder's homicidal Superman.

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[Sci]

I think one major point needs to be restated: I don’t think a lot of people are suggesting that Picard season 3 is awful television. I think it has a few awful entries but generally it works okay as a whole. But it does nothing particularly new. It’s entire design is based on nostalgia. And if that’s what you want, great. Personally, as I’ve read others say, I’d agree that the return to Enterprise-D with the crew I grew up with to be a lot of fun.

But the rest of it did nothing for me personally. (Save maybe Captain Seven.) That doesn’t make it bad television. Just not overly compelling television. If it was bad TV, I would have stopped watching around episode 6. But I kept tuning in. That does say something for sure. Like I said above, this is very much a warm blanket. And if that’s what you like, great. I think most of us here who aren’t giving it universal praise just would like to be challenged a bit more. That’s not a bad thing.

I would only add to this that I strongly suspect Matalas is capable of a higher caliber of artistic merit than he set out to achieve in PIC S3.

 

[Campe]

I would only add to this that I strongly suspect Matalas is capable of a higher caliber of artistic merit than he set out to achieve in PIC S3.

I can believe that. I’ve not seen his take on Twelve Monkeys but it is quite highly regarded.

 

[Sci]

Yeah no. There's no rules saying that's how it works here. This isn't the court.

Sure, but no one has to listen to you if you won't actually defend your assertions.

There's also Admiral Clancy's nihilistic and hopeless take on Starfleet, almost reminiscent of all the questionable views that Jonathan and Martha gave to Snyder's homicidal Superman.

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The problem with your comparison, of course, is that the part of the point of PIC S1 is that Clancy was wrong, and she comes to realize and take responsibility for her mistake. Whereas Snyder's films never frame Jonathan's and Martha's words as a wrong or a mistake to be overcome.

ETA:

That's why PIC S1 is existentialist rather than nihilist. PIC S1 depicts horrific things like Clancy's nationalism in order to explore how good people can be seduced by them but then insists that they can be redeemed. To use a metaphor, PIC S1 shows Dante going through the Inferno so that he can reach Paradise. Snyder's films just glorify the Inferno and deny there's anything beyond it.