Spoilers Did Picard finally ''right the ship'' with Picard season 3?

[Sci]

She should have wanted to kill herself

Now that is nihilism.

if she had actually reformed.

Nope. The desire to live so as to right wrongs is also a legitimate manifestation of changing for the better.

It was a silly storyline for a cartoony Space Hitler character that never really got their punishment for all the atrocities committed.

And from a narrative standpoint, she literally sacrificed her life trying to make up for that before being rescued by God the Guardian of Forever.

You can argue how well the narrative intent was executed (because there is a level of subjectivity to that), but your original critique that Mirror Philipa was never horrified by her previous actions is just false. She was horrified, and she tried to right the things she had done wrong, and she died in that alternate timeline for it.

One time is enough. Obviously it's not worth engaging further with material one does not enjoy.

Which is fine, but you should separate the question of your enjoyment from the question of narrative functionality. The former is completely subjective; the latter is not, yet you keep making critiques based on inaccurate assertions of the latter.

Interesting how that was received so much better as a satisfying serialized payoff, than the crying Kelpian child being responsible for The Burn.

Not that interesting. There's a segment of Trek "fandom" that would respond to DIS walking on water by snickering and saying, "Can't swim, huh?"

For myself: I lost my mother very shortly after DIS S3 aired. And I absolutely defend the revelation that the Burn was caused by Su'Kal's grief. If my grief could have burnt down the galaxy, it would have. It was a good creative decision and I don't want to be friends with you if you mock it.

Who else determines whether it is good?

Time, mostly.

Some works are popular when they were created and then endure forever -- most of Shakespeare, for instance. Some works emerge in obscurity and then achieve lasting love later on -- The Great Gatsby and Moby-Dick. Some works are popular when they emerge and then are forgotten -- Jan & Dean, for instance. And some works are unpopular when they emerge and stay unpopular -- the infamous 1987 bomb Ishtar, for instance.

The Last Jedi also lost about 700M in potential box office (compared to it's predecessor) due to poor Wom, diminishing returns.

Citation needed.

 

[Farscape One]

So who determines whether it is good?

The season was written to be popular and successful, and it was. Audiences and fans loved it, positive word of mouth. These are all signs of a *gasp* 'good' season.


Good and engaging by who's standards? Because if fans and audiences are tuning in and enjoying the series... they are indeed engaged by the story.

I'm in the camp of loving the season, personally. I'm not trying to attack you, I'm just saying popular doesn't always mean good.


To your point about the season being written to be popular and successful... isn't that the goal of EVERY writer for EVERY series/movie in existence? It's not exclusive to Terry. He succeeded in achieving that goal, yes. But is season 3 so weak it can't defend itself against a few people who may not like it as much?

I loved the season, but those who didn't... okay, fine. I'll make a case for it, maybe a couple times. If no one budges, I agree to disagree. No harm, no foul.

No shame in just walking away.

 

[Sci]

To your point about the season being written to be popular and successful... isn't that the goal of EVERY writer for EVERY series/movie in existence?

I mean, yes and no. Every writer wants some success and to entertain large numbers of people. But some writers are willing to specifically design their work to entertain the largest number of people possible, while others are more interested in expressing their particular artistic vision, even if doing so means a lot of potential audience members won't relate to your work.

I think it's clear that Matalas wanted PIC S3 to be a show that as many people as possible would enjoy, with a dash of his own artistic vision on top of that. He was doing the equivalent of trying to write a top ten hit. Whereas I think it's clear that Chabon was willing to create something that might not achieve maximum possible popularity, for the sake of honoring his unique voice as an artist -- the equivalent of writing an underground indie song.

They're both legitimate artistic choices. But I know which one usually speaks to the deepest parts of my soul, and it's usually not the top ten hit.

 

[Farscape One]

I mean, yes and no. Every writer wants some success and to entertain large numbers of people. But some writers are willing to specifically design their work to entertain the largest number of people possible, while others are more interested in expressing their particular artistic vision, even if doing so means a lot of potential audience members won't relate to your work.

I think it's clear that Matalas wanted PIC S3 to be a show that as many people as possible would enjoy, with a dash of his own artistic vision on top of that. He was doing the equivalent of trying to write a top ten hit. Whereas I think it's clear that Chabon was willing to create something that might not achieve maximum possible popularity, for the sake of honoring his unique voice as an artist -- the equivalent of writing an underground indie song.

They're both legitimate artistic choices. But I know which one usually speaks to the deepest parts of my soul, and it's usually not the top ten hit.

I would think that even with the artistic ones that the goal was still to be remembered and enioyed by as many as possible. I'd call that a success: your work being appreciated, enjoyed, and remembered.

 

[TerryTrek]

Now that is nihilism.
Nope. The desire to live so as to right wrongs is also a legitimate manifestation of changing for the better.

If you've killed millions brutally, the first wrong one must right is accountability for those genocidal crimes.

Maybe Hilter could have been redeemed if he chose to save a child on the opposite side. It would make him free from accountability for past crimes.

She was horrified, and she tried to right the things she had done wrong, and she died in that alternate timeline for it.

Which is fine, but you should separate the question of your enjoyment from the question of narrative functionality. The former is completely subjective; the latter is not, yet you keep making critiques based on inaccurate assertions of the latter.

Just for you, at some point this month I'll rewatch that part and see if she was actually horrified by her crimes and ready to take accountability for it. It didn't play that way on earlier viewing.

Not that interesting. There's a segment of Trek "fandom" that would respond to DIS walking on water by snickering and saying, "Can't swim, huh?"

For myself: I lost my mother very shortly after DIS S3 aired. And I absolutely defend the revelation that the Burn was caused by Su'Kal's grief. If my grief could have burnt down the galaxy, it would have. It was a good creative decision and I don't want to be friends with you if you mock it.

Plenty of others have mocked it to oblivion so I won't bother. That was just my moment where I parted way with this show.

Time, mostly.

Some works are popular when they were created and then endure forever -- most of Shakespeare, for instance. Some works emerge in obscurity and then achieve lasting love later on -- The Great Gatsby and Moby-Dick. Some works are popular when they emerge and then are forgotten -- Jan & Dean, for instance. And some works are unpopular when they emerge and stay unpopular -- the infamous 1987 bomb Ishtar, for instance.

So we shall see whether this season maintains it's positive WOM in the time to come. As fans get louder for more of this, I believe it will.

Citation needed.

See box office mojo. TFA = 2 Billion. TLJ = 1.3 Billion. TRoS= 1 Billion. Still successful, but audiences dropped off. The opposite of the Marvel films during the Infinity Saga.

I think it's clear that Matalas wanted PIC S3 to be a show that as many people as possible would enjoy, with a dash of his own artistic vision on top of that.

Yup. He actually said that in a YT interview recently.

 

[Sci]

I would think that even with the artistic ones that the goal was still to be remembered and enioyed by as many as possible. I'd call that a success: your work being appreciated, enjoyed, and remembered.

The issue is that there's always a trade-off between popularity and specificity of artistic voice.

We all experience life subjectively; as a result, works of art that are constructed to reflect one's own unique artistic voice will never attract as many people as works of art that are constructed to speak more broadly to the general human experience, because the overwhelming majority of people have not had your specific experience.

Consider how much more popular, say, Steven Spielberg's Jurassic Park (1993) is than his recent film The Fabelmans (2022). One was designed to speak to a large number of people's experiences; one was designed to speak to people with experiences that closely align with Spielberg's.

 

[Farscape One]

What is WOM?

 

[CorporalClegg]

Word of Mouth

 

[HotRod]

What is WOM?

Word Of Mouth.

 

[Sci]

If you've killed millions brutally, the first wrong one must right is accountability for those genocidal crimes.

Which she undertakes to do, and then dies for it.

Plenty of others have mocked it to oblivion so I won't bother. That was just my moment where I parted way with this show.

It was an excellent decision and it speaks to me very deeply as someone who has experienced profound grief in recent years.

So we shall see whether this season maintains it's positive WOM in the time to come. As fans get louder for more of this, I believe it will.

It might! Or, as the happy vibes of seeing the TNG characters back for the first time in so many years wears off, it might not. I'd say it's about 50/50 right now. We'll find out.

See box office mojo.

Box Office Mojo does not have the capacity to travel to alternate timelines to assess real-life performance against counter-factual scenarios. You can ramble on about WOM all you want, but the simple fact of the matter is that The Last Jedi was the third Star Wars movie in as many years and audience numbers most commonly start to drop off in a scenario like that.

The opposite of the Marvel films during the Infinity Saga.

Marvel is a very different animal, because it is not one series but rather a set of interconnected series with overlapping but not identical fandoms, and because it has been cultivating that brand as a set of interconnected but discrete series since 2008. Whereas Star Wars has been cultivating a brand as a single distinct series, of which Rogue One was only the first to try to brand itself as a different series. Marvel's experience is not applicable.

 

[Farscape One]

The issue is that there's always a trade-off between popularity and specificity of artistic voice.

We all experience life subjectively; as a result, works of art that are constructed to reflect one's own unique artistic voice will never attract as many people as works of art that are constructed to speak more broadly to the general human experience, because the overwhelming majority of people have not had your specific experience.

Consider how much more popular, say, Steven Spielberg's Jurassic Park (1993) is than his recent film The Fabelmans (2022). One was designed to speak to a large number of people's experiences; one was designed to speak to people with experiences that closely align with Spielberg's.

Doesn't that seem rather vain, though? Using THE FABELMANS as an example (I have not seen it), it is supposed to essentialy be Spielberg's own life story. Isn't directing your own autobiography a sort of vain prospect? Or at least, can be viewed that way?

(I'm not saying he hasn't earned it... the man brought timeless classic after timeless classic to us all for decades. If anyone deserves to make such a thing, it's him.)

 

[Farscape One]

Word Of Mouth.

Thank you.

 

[Farscape One]

Word of Mouth

Thank you.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Isn't directing your own autobiography a sort of vain prospect?

Yes. It's literally self-indulgent. You're missing Sci's point, though.

 

[Sci]

Doesn't that seem rather vain, though?

All art is a little bit vain.

Using THE FABELMANS as an example (I have not seen it), it is supposed to essentialy be Spielberg's own life story. Isn't directing your own autobiography a sort of vain prospect? Or at least, can be viewed that way?

It could be. On the other hand -- you know, something about that movie spoke to me. I don't know if I could ever get, say, my cousin to experience what I felt from it, because her relationship to film is different from mine. But there again, she loves the film Love & Basketball (she is athletic), and I've never even tried to watch that because I rarely connect to sports movies. I strongly suspect (though I don't know 100% and won't know until the day I watch it) that Love & Basketball is not for me.

Anyway, works of art are not always designed for everyone. There's nothing wrong with that. So artists always have to make a trade-off between specificity of expression vs. size of audience.

(I'm not saying he hasn't earned it... the man brought timeless classic after timeless classic to us all for decades. If anyone deserves to make such a thing, it's him.)

True enough.

 

[Farscape One]

Yes. It's literally self-indulgent. You're missing Sci's point, though.

No, I get the point. I just simply don't fully agree with it.

 

[fireproof78]

Good and engaging by who's standards? Because if fans and audiences are tuning in and enjoying the series... they are indeed engaged by the story

Ultimately, time. Did it impact people on a deeper level, and speak to the human condition in a way that will be remembered? Or, did it trade on shallow feelings of nostalgia and ear tickling and not leave a lasting impression?

Ultimately, we won't know for a bit. I do know for me I revisit Discovery a lot because the characters resonate. That's me.

Milage will vary and is not dependent on populism. If you want me to like a show argue the merits, not ratings. Ratings have no merit to me.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Or, did it trade on shallow feelings of nostalgia and ear tickling and not leave a lasting impression?

Yes.

Oh, wait. That was rhetorical. Sorry, my dude.

 

[Sci]

Or, did it trade on shallow feelings of nostalgia and ear tickling and not leave a lasting impression?

It's worth bearing in mind that some nostalgia-based works of art can achieve lasting popular love even beyond their original nostalgia audience, and some can't. Like, I don't think anyone really remembers or cares about The Brady Bunch Reunion, but clearly people still love Grease. It depends on a lot of factors and I suspect I would need to think longer and more deeply to try to suss out what those factors are.

 

[TerryTrek]

Which she undertakes to do, and then dies for it.

Box Office Mojo does not have the capacity to travel to alternate timelines to assess real-life performance against counter-factual scenarios. You can ramble on about WOM all you want, but the simple fact of the matter is that The Last Jedi was the third Star Wars movie in as many years and audience numbers most commonly start to drop off in a scenario like that.

Marvel is a very different animal, because it is not one series but rather a set of interconnected series with overlapping but not identical fandoms, and because it has been cultivating that brand as a set of interconnected but discrete series since 2008. Whereas Star Wars has been cultivating a brand as a single distinct series, of which Rogue One was only the first to try to brand itself as a different series. Marvel's experience is not applicable.

One could argue if the film was better received, there wouldn't have been that fatigue and numbers dropping off.

Ultimately the diminishing returns mattered to Disney. Episode 9 literally tried to awkwardly course correct a lot of TLJ, and Critics actually found that jarring. Rey Palpatine..lol

The negativity for TLJ got to them, whether it was the 700M lower box office or the vocal division..

Makes me happy we got Picard and friends reunited one last time in a satisfying 'TNG movie' of sorts that audiences loved. Sorry Luke, Han and Leia.. it's never going to happen now.