Did James Kirk command a ship before the Enterprise ?

[J.T.B.]

The Old Mixer said:
The "Where No Man Has Gone Before" uniform "braids" are more like solid rings, and we didn't see any broken ones on anybody...so I just take it that in the early uniform, they didn't have enough cuff variations to account for all of the ranks that wound up being used on the show. Also, wasn't Mitchell specifically said to be a Lt. Cmdr., but had one solid ring? That would indicate that the scheme does not directly correspond to the later braid scheme.

Yes. When we've been down this road before, IIRC, Timo said that Mitchell was actually a lieutenant, that his record display was incorrect and Kirk referred to him as a LCDR because he had given him a posthumous promotion. (If that is wrong, Timo, I apologize and please set me straight!)

Of course, that would also imply that Spock was only a lieutenant as XO, skipping a grade rather than having the second in command the next rank below the captain, which is standard Starfleet procedure in everything we have seen.

Much simpler, IMO, to say that the sleeve braid system was different at that time!

Am I correct in saying that if Kirk were a CDR in WNMHGB, he would be the only non-CAPT commanding officer of a Starfleet ship of any size seen in Trek?

--Justin

 

[Niemz]

Kirk's first ship, as Captain, was the Enterprise according to canon.

 

[garamet]

RE: Uniform braid, a RL practicality: Low budget. Extremely low budget. They only had so many shirts to go around. I imagine once they codified the ranks the wardrobe folks were kept busy ripping one kind of braid off and sewing another on, depending on who was wearing which shirt that week.

Heck, the budget was so tight that, the story goes, Roddenberry used to prowl the neighborhood on trash night collecting odd-shaped hunks of Styrofoam to be painted and used as set decor.

 

[Duncan MacLeod]

No. For 1966 Star Trek's budget, around $196,000 per episode iirc, was quite high. Although it did go down in the 2nd and 3rd seasons. But it was a very expensive show to make really could have used about 20% more money.

It was Matt Jeffries that used to gather the styrofoam and paint it, more because he needed stuff that looked strange and unusual than to save money although saving money was a definate bonus.

 

[Warped9]

Zeppster said:
The Enterprise was his first command. He was the youngest Captain in the fleet at the age of 31.

The televised and printed evidence from the Writer's Guide refutes this.

 

[The Old Mixer]

aridas sofia said:
I never said he wasn't talking about the Enterprise.

Then neither one of us knows what you're talking about.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Niemz said:
Kirk's first ship, as Captain, was the Enterprise according to canon.

Source?

 

[Warped9]

The Old Mixer said:

Niemz said:
Kirk's first ship, as Captain, was the Enterprise according to canon.

Source?

WNMHGB:
Dehner: "You asked for him aboard your first command."

Excerpt from the Writer's Guide: Kirk's first command was a destroyer equivalent class starship (paraphrased).

Consequently Kirk's first command was not the Enterprise.

 

[aridas sofia]

The Old Mixer said:

aridas sofia said:
I never said he wasn't talking about the Enterprise.

Then neither one of us knows what you're talking about.

Cute. Trite, but cute.

For those that care, I said...

It doesn't say anything about Enterprise being a new ship. Enterprise might have been an old ship and been refit with the new "time barrier" breaking engines.

To which The Old Mixer replied...

I'd say it's pretty obvious from context. Who's taking them back? And why would that officer be so enthusiastic about another ship? Plus, the "Time Warp Factor" terminology used in "The Cage" suggests that it's one of those "new ships" that have "broken the time barrier".

It's quite a sretch to assume that he wasn't talking about the Enterprise, IMO.

And in general, throughout the series, such a big deal is made of "Starships" in the Enterprise's limited class being the best ships available, top of the line...not aging vessels being made defunct by newer, better classes.

The line from "The Cage" is...

And you won't believe how fast you can get back. The time barrier’s been broken. Our new ships can--

What constitutes a "new" ship? Was the Enterprise in TMP a "new" ship after refitting? Decker specifically said she was "almost an entirely new Enterprise." And what was at the heart of that contention? Scott says the ship has new engines. Never tried at warp power.

It was twenty-five years from the time Okuda says the ship was launched -- in 2245 -- to the TMP refit -- in 2270. What prevents these people from doing that twice? Twenty-five years before 2245 is 2220, and roughly forty years before Kirk took command. What if that had been her original construction date? If the ship needs complete overhauls at 25 year intervals, she would have been relaunched with entirely new, up-to-date propulsion systems in 2245, and yet still have been 40 (ish) years old when Kirk took command. "The Cage" happens only a few years later. Enterprise would still be "a new ship," certainly from the perspective of those castaways and arguably even from the perspective of her own crew.

Does this kind of story make sense? Well, look at all the old ships flying around in TNG. 100 year-old ships and more. Excelsiors and Mirandas and Grissoms and... even refit Constitutions. And what of the naval precedent being bandied about here? The aircraft carrier U.S.S. Enterprise is... 47 years old. It had a major overhaul refit in 1990 -- at 30 years of age.

I'm not saying anyone needs to believe this. It obviously didn't make the grade with Okuda. But such an interpretation fits with TMoST, the Writers' Guide and the expressed intent of Roddenberry during TOS -- that the ship have some age and history behind it. It even fits with the notion that the ship was (re-) launched in 2245. It fits with current naval practice. And frankly, it is more interesting to consider more captains and crews on that ship than just the two before Kirk -- at least to me.

 

[Warped9]

Warped9 said:

The Old Mixer said:

Niemz said:
Kirk's first ship, as Captain, was the Enterprise according to canon.

Source?

WNMHGB:
Dehner: "You asked for him aboard your first command."

Excerpt from the Writer's Guide: Kirk's first command was a destroyer equivalent class starship (paraphrased).

Consequently Kirk's first command was not the Enterprise.

And if you want to get really picky Kirk could have held the rank of full Commander for his first command then have been promoted to the rank of Captain and posted to the Enterprise.

 

[Therin of Andor]

aridas sofia said:
look at all the old ships flying around in TNG. 100 year-old ships and more. Excelsiors and Mirandas and Grissoms and... even refit Constitutions.

The designs are old. Doesn't mean the actual ships are over 100 years old.

 

[cooleddie74]

In "Interface(TNG)" Picard or some other officer mentions the Excelsior is in the region of the missing USS Hera(the ship captained by Geordi's mother), but I sincerely doubt it's Sulu's old ship from the movies. There's no evidence that it is an 85-year-old vessel in the right age range. Most likely a later ship carrying the same name.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I think I'm seeing your point aridas sofia, but your previous couple of posts seemed to be talking in circles. The gist:

"The line doesn't say that the Enterprise was a new ship."
"But it seems pretty obvious that the Enterprise was one of the new ships, and here's why...."
"I never said the Enterprise wasn't a new ship."

Warped9 said:

The Old Mixer said:

Niemz said:
Kirk's first ship, as Captain, was the Enterprise according to canon.

Source?

WNMHGB:
Dehner: "You asked for him aboard your first command."

Undisputed, and referenced by me upthread...but doesn't say anything about the specific point--that, according to Niemz, a canonical source has established that the Enterprise was Kirk's first command at the rank of Captain.

Excerpt from the Writer's Guide: Kirk's first command was a destroyer equivalent class starship (paraphrased).

Again, something that I've been attempting to support further upthread...but not canon. And even if it were, it still doesn't establish that the Enterprise was Kirk's first command at the rank of Captain.

And if you want to get really picky Kirk could have held the rank of full Commander for his first command then have been promoted to the rank of Captain and posted to the Enterprise.

Again, something that I've argued to support upthread...but pure speculation, not established by any canonical source.

There is some onscreen implication that Kirk commanded another ship before the Enterprise, which I've referenced upthread. But there is no onscreen source that establishes what that ship was, what rank he held when he commanded it, or how old he was when he took command of the ship. I'm not refuting any of what you've posted...but it's not evidence of what Niemz was attempting to assert.

 

[Timo]

Of course, that would also imply that Spock was only a lieutenant as XO, skipping a grade rather than having the second in command the next rank below the captain, which is standard Starfleet procedure in everything we have seen.

Actually, having a "one-rank gap" there appears to be standard for most of the known cases save for Picard/Riker!

Janeway had two LtCmdrs as his XOs. Keogh had a LtCmdr. Spock under Kirk was referred to as LtCmdr despite his sleeve markings twice during the first season (a recent promotion performed "stepwise" for this bureaucratic reason or that?). Sisko had a Major as his station XO and a Major or a LtCmdr as Defiant second-in-command, even after he himself got the fourth pip.

Nevertheless, Commander Kirk at the center seat in "Where No Man" would be our one and only known case of regular starship command by somebody below O-6 rank. By direct extension of that theory, though, the lesser vessel Antares would be commanded by a Commander Ramart, O-5... And of course there would be various unseen ships whose captains could hold lower ranks - even though there clearly are also various witnessed ships of very small size that explicitly have four-pippers in command.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deleted 2]

Duncan MacLeod said:
And next, Timo will expound on his theory that Pike was a lieutenant when he commanded the Enterprise, and the ship herself was a sagging old rust bucket.

Why not? Lieutenants have commanded small ships in many navies, and many modern navies today refer to the OF-2 rank as 'Captain' or 'Captain Lieutenant'. The Enterprise--under Pike--is presumed to have a crew complement of 200. Ships that size usually have a Lt. Cmdr in charge, so it might be a tad too large, but maybe Pike took command after the death of his CO--a Lieutenant Commander--died while on deep space assignment.

 

[Timo]

...many modern navies today refer to the OF-2 rank as 'Captain' or 'Captain Lieutenant'.

And ours happens to be one of those - due to a Russian heritage, rather than a French/German or British one. Captain Lieutenants (the same as USN/RN/Starfleet Lieutenant, O-3) are sometimes seen in command of minesweepers and such, while Commander Captains (the equivalent of LtCmdr, O-4) and Commanders (Cmdr, O-5) are more typical aboard primary combatants, which admittedly are here limited to missile corvettes.

Would Pike's ship be considered "small enough", even with such a low crew count? Archer's vessel could sail with just 80 people, and was under the command of an O-6, but admittedly was an extra-prestigious ship regardless of size - and probably was designed for a much larger crew, judging by her size.

And yes, Captain Pike could well have been merely temping aboard NCC-1701 in "The Cage". It's not as if he were quoted as a veteran of deep space or anything - it seemed as if this were the first time he lost any personnel, in a galaxy we know to be really dangerous to landing parties...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[GodThingFormerly]

Timo said:
It's not as if he were quoted as a veteran of deep space or anything - it seemed as if this were the first time he lost any personnel, in a galaxy we know to be really dangerous to landing parties...

Oh, bullshit. Pike specifically states to Boyce that he is tired of losing crewmembers, which strongly implies that he has gone through previous disasters like Rigel VII. Call him an incompetent, sexist, borderline alcoholic with maladaptive tendencies if you must, but inexperienced? I think not.

TGT

 

[Deleted 2]

^ For the sake of argument, that does not mean that these crewmembers were lost under his command, or under his command as CO of the enterprise. He might have lost people while leading a landing party as head of security, for example.

We can go even further, and speculate the Enterprise left Earth with a crew of 400+, commanded by an O-6 Captain, and returned from its deep space mission after ten years with a crew of 200 and a mere Lieutenant in command. The crewmembers who didn't return were either killed on away missions or deserted to join various alien empathic orgy cults.

This would also explain why we only see crewmembers wearing either a single rank braid (indicating the rank of lieutenant) or none at all, and why Pike was so eager to return home rather than investigate a distress signal.

 

[aridas sofia]

I'll be the first one to argue for a Commander Kirk in WNMHGB. But everything about a Lieutenant Pike being the captain in "Cage" feels wrong to me. I think "The Cage" with Pike having the same sleeve marks as his senior officers is just... wrong. If I could get inside the heads of the people making the pilot and understand why they did it that way, maybe I could buy into it. But as it is it just seems like it was a detail deemed unimportant to the production.

In putting together the Federation Reference Series I interpreted those marks in the only way I think makes sense -- they simply distinguish between senior officers and junior officers, with the broken stripe representing some sort of in-between specialist like the Napoleonic Surgeon or Purser.

 

[Timo]

Well, basically all the other people with that single stripe on their sleeve could plausibly be of Lieutenant rank - the XO is even specifically said to be one, unless "Lieutenant" in that case is another colloquial term much like Number One.

Perhaps we could say that the color of the stripe is also significant, so that Pike, Mitchell and/or Spock could be Lieutenant Commanders despite their single stripes. A bit like the current difference between LtCol and Major, or 1st and 2nd Lt, in US Army rank insignia... A faulty system as such, and one that Starfleet did away with between "The Cage" and "Corbomite Maneuver".

Timo Saloniemi