Star Trek III and Sarek

[Brannigan]

(Note:I did not see a recent thread about this topic)

In Star Trek lore it is established that Sarak is a powerful and influential Ambassador in the Federation.

When he comes to Kirk following Spock's death he pleads with Kirk to restore Spock and his Katra which means extreme risk for Kirk. The risk ultimately means Kirk subverting Starfleet command, destroying his beloved ship and being demoted. (I often wonder: had Kirk not saved earth from the whale probe would he have even gotten another command?)

So: If Sarak is the figure he is made out to be why does he not find a way to help Kirk legally go to Genesis to retrieve Spock? It is assumed that Sarak probably had a hand in getting Kirk and crew a ship at the end of Star Trek IV; but why didnt he use his considerable sway and prestige to argue the importance of retrieving Spocks body and thus avoid having Kirk ruin his career? (I know the real world reason: Plot).

 

[Ssosmcin]

Privacy. Vulcans have a thing about that. Then Kirk blabbed to starfleet on his own and got shot down (Kirk has a thing about not keeping secrets also).

Also, it's unethical to use your influence for personal reasons.

 

[David cgc]

Also, it's unethical to use your influence for personal reasons.

I think Sarek could argue that he'd use his influence to have any Vulcan national's remains properly repatriated if they died off-world.

Still, Genesis was a massive no-go zone. It's possible that if the Klingons hadn't attacked (and Spock hadn't been revived), he could've had the Grissom retrieve his body, but then the question is if it could be done fast enough in light of McCoy's deteriorating mental state, before he began suffering permanent damage.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Well, the idea Sarek had was to bitch Kirk out. He thought Spock's Katra was with him. And then Kirk would go and get the just discovered body (for whatever reason explained off screen). Sarek didn't need to get the body himself without the Katra.

 

[Cyfa]

I like to think that Sarek could have gone down a more official route to retrieve Spock's body, but that would have taken too much time, and as @David cgc has mentioned, time was of the essence. Nevermind McCoy's deteriorating mental state (do mind, though), for how long would Spock's body be useable before decomposition hits the point of no return (even with 23rd century medical technology)?
(Sarek didn't know that the Genesis effect had rejuvenated Spock at that point. Unless he did? The Grissom/Genesis Planet scenes don't seem to be intercut with the Earth scenes chronologically. My mind makes it all work when I watch the film, but I don't think about it too much. A good excuse for another rewatch )

Edit: At the risk of derailing this thread, why was Spock's body jettisoned in TWoK? I thought that kind of thing (in real life, anyway) only happened when there weren't the resources to preserve the body until the ship reaches home port (or wherever). We didn't see any of the poor deceased cadets get shot off into space - were they put into stasis for the return to port? Surely Vulcan funeral customs are known to Starfleet (even if not the more arcane ones like the fal-tor-pan)?

 

[David cgc]

(Sarek didn't know that the Genesis effect had rejuvenated Spock at that point. Unless he did? The Grissom/Genesis Planet scenes don't seem to be intercut with the Earth scenes chronologically. My mind makes it all work when I watch the film, but I don't think about it too much. A good excuse for another rewatch )

The original script (and novelization) have it that Spock's body was required for the ceremony interring his Katra in the Hall of Ancient Thought. As originally structured, the first few Grissom scenes would've opened the movie, with Kirk knowing Spock's body had landed intact before they even got back to Earth. Which is good, because if the body had burned up in the atmosphere, the whole thing would've been moot.

At the risk of derailing this thread, why was Spock's body jettisoned in TWoK? I thought that kind of thing (in real life, anyway) only happened when there weren't the resources to preserve the body until the ship reaches home port (or wherever). We didn't see any of the poor deceased cadets get shot off into space - were they put into stasis for the return to port? Surely Vulcan funeral customs are known to Starfleet (even if not the more arcane ones like the fal-tor-pan)?

I think the best we'll do is the novelization, where Spock's will specified burial in space if he died in action. Sarek presumed it was because of his half-human heritage that he thought the katra transfer might not work (or might not be welcome), but operated under the assumption that if he was able to successfully move his katra before death, he'd be able to communicate to his carrier that his wishes had changed and they needed to keep his body, after all.

 

[Cyfa]

Ah, thank you, @David cgc I really should have flicked through the novelisation - after all, it's on the shelf next to my PC less than 30cm away! (I'll have to re-read it after I've re-watched the film)

 

[Airmandan]

What bothered me was why Sarek assumed that Spock's Katra and body could be reunited. His body, as far as anyone knew, was dead. His katra, both Kirk and Sarek figured out, was still alive in McCoy. So why didn't they fly McCoy to Vulcan and stick Spock's Katra in a jar like they do with others?

And I just realized this thread was dormant for over a year now. Great

 

[Ssosmcin]

What bothered me was why Sarek assumed that Spock's Katra and body could be reunited. His body, as far as anyone knew, was dead. His katra, both Kirk and Sarek figured out, was still alive in McCoy. So why didn't they fly McCoy to Vulcan and stick Spock's Katra in a jar like they do with others?

We can assume that Sarek (and Kirk) learned Spock's tube was discovered by Grissom once they made their report to Starfleet. "Refusion" is an ancient rite not done "since ages past and then only in legend." But still in their history.

Sarek took a shot. Besides, he admits his logic is uncertain concerning Spock.

And I just realized this thread was dormant for over a year now. Great

10 months. You have a year, you're good.

 

[publiusr]

Remember…there were dirty folks in Starfleet. My guess is that—had the dyno-scanner not picked up Khan, with Ceti Alpha V the target—Starfleet would still have made the new planet off limits.

Grissom was the back-up scrambled in a hurry.

If it were a pure science mission, heavily armed Reliant would never have been involved—it would only have been Esteban.

And Enterprise blows Grissom up with the lucky shot

Khan would never have had a chance one way or the other.

 

[Maurice]

What bothered me was why Sarek assumed that Spock's Katra and body could be reunited. His body, as far as anyone knew, was dead. His katra, both Kirk and Sarek figured out, was still alive in McCoy. So why didn't they fly McCoy to Vulcan and stick Spock's Katra in a jar like they do with others?

As scripted, the movie opened with the Grissom detecting Spock's tube, and Starfleet and Kirk and presumably Sarek had been notified about the discovery. The front end of the movie got rearranged in editing, leading to this plot hole.

 

[FredH]

"Refusion" is an ancient rite not done "since ages past and then only in legend." But still in their history.

It did always strike me as odd that it hadn’t been done since the days of legend, yet they still knew how to do it…

 

[David cgc]

What bothered me was why Sarek assumed that Spock's Katra and body could be reunited. His body, as far as anyone knew, was dead. His katra, both Kirk and Sarek figured out, was still alive in McCoy. So why didn't they fly McCoy to Vulcan and stick Spock's Katra in a jar like they do with others?

The lines were cut from the script (and expanded on in the novelization), but it was originally explicit that they needed Spock's corpse as well as his Katra that was in McCoy to put him in a jar on Vulcan, and finding Spock's body alive was a total surprise. By just leaving it to Sarek's vague "and then both will find peace" (and the exegetic knowledge that the movie's purpose is to bring Spock back to life), it's implied that they all knew from the start that they were trying to save Spock, and not simply bury him correctly (and fix McCoy's brain).

                                           MALTZ
                             Wait! You said you would kill me!

                                           KIRK
                             I lied.

                   At Kirk's gesture, Chekov leads Maltz out. Kirk turns
                   back to his panel.

                                           SULU
                             Estimating Vulcan at point one
                             niner.

                   CAMERA MOVES IN to Kirk and Saavik.

                                           KIRK
                             Saavik: message to Ambassador
                             Sarek. Tell him we bring McCoy
                             and a living Spock. Ask him to
                             prepare for the Katra ritual.

                   Saavik raises an eyebrow.

                                           SAAVIK
                             Yes, Admiral. But that
                             may not be possible.

                                           KIRK
                                     (turning)
                             What? What are you saying?

                                           SAAVIK
                             The Katra ritual is meant to
                             deposit Spock's consciousness in
                             the Hall of Ancient Thought - not
                             in his body.

                                           KIRK
                             But we have Spock alive! That's
                             more than we bargained for!

                                           SAAVIK
                             Or less. What you describe is called
                             Fal Tor Pan - the refusion. It is
                             very dangerous. The elders may not
                             choose to attempt it.

                                           KIRK
                             And if they don't.? What will
                             happen to Spock?

                                           SAAVIK
                             He will remain always as he
                             is.

                   As Kirk wrestles with the horror of this we see:

 

[Airmandan]

The lines were cut from the script (and expanded on in the novelization), but it was originally explicit that they needed Spock's corpse as well as his Katra that was in McCoy to put him in a jar on Vulcan, and finding Spock's body alive was a total surprise. By just leaving it to Sarek's vague "and then both will find peace" (and the exegetic knowledge that the movie's purpose is to bring Spock back to life), it's implied that they all knew from the start that they were trying to save Spock, and not simply bury him correctly (and fix McCoy's brain).

                                           MALTZ
                             Wait! You said you would kill me!

                                           KIRK
                             I lied.

                   At Kirk's gesture, Chekov leads Maltz out. Kirk turns
                   back to his panel.

                                           SULU
                             Estimating Vulcan at point one
                             niner.

                   CAMERA MOVES IN to Kirk and Saavik.

                                           KIRK
                             Saavik: message to Ambassador
                             Sarek. Tell him we bring McCoy
                             and a living Spock. Ask him to
                             prepare for the Katra ritual.

                   Saavik raises an eyebrow.

                                           SAAVIK
                             Yes, Admiral. But that
                             may not be possible.

                                           KIRK
                                     (turning)
                             What? What are you saying?

                                           SAAVIK
                             The Katra ritual is meant to
                             deposit Spock's consciousness in
                             the Hall of Ancient Thought - not
                             in his body.

                                           KIRK
                             But we have Spock alive! That's
                             more than we bargained for!

                                           SAAVIK
                             Or less. What you describe is called
                             Fal Tor Pan - the refusion. It is
                             very dangerous. The elders may not
                             choose to attempt it.

                                           KIRK
                             And if they don't.? What will
                             happen to Spock?

                                           SAAVIK
                             He will remain always as he
                             is.

                   As Kirk wrestles with the horror of this we see:

The things that end up on the cutting room floor.

 

[Ssosmcin]

It did always strike me as odd that it hadn’t been done since the days of legend, yet they still knew how to do it…

Vulcan's have always had a long memory with lots of traditions and ancient rites. They fact that they knew how to do it isn't the same thing has actually having done it.

 

[FredH]

Vulcan's have always had a long memory with lots of traditions and ancient rites. They fact that they knew how to do it isn't the same thing has actually having done it.

I’d sure like to hear the story of the previous time they did it — and why they hadn’t since.