in the courtmarshell, Kirk said, My first command. Yes as Captain of the Enterprise, but he must have commanded another ship and mission with Mitchell - and unknown ship. He also served under Captain Garrovick on the Farragut and on the Republic as Lt. commander and Lt. I guess.
Did James Kirk command a ship before the Enterprise ?
- Thread starter Bones1864
- Start date
Something like the antares maybe. To me Kirk was like audie Murphy. Winning the big battle when it was necessary. He was a soldier, not a diplomat. In fact there ware no Ambassadors aboard, were there ? I hope we see more constellation type ships than some kewl little ship .
xortex, please don't post multiple times in a row. Use the edit and/or quote functions to combine your replies into a single post. From the Board Rules on spamming:
Thanks!
The connection between TOS and STXI remains to be seen; nothing yet to say it couldn't be one of perfect consistency. We don't even know which era the movie is supposed to deal with...
Yes, we know April was the first skipper, and Pike came at some point after that, but we're completely in the dark on how many captains there were overall, how long they spent aboard, and whether some had several tours of duty. If we see Pike at timepoint X before Kirk's known captaincy, it's extremely difficult to argue that this shouldn't be, for any and all values of X.
Timo Saloniemi
Yes, we know April was the first skipper, and Pike came at some point after that, but we're completely in the dark on how many captains there were overall, how long they spent aboard, and whether some had several tours of duty. If we see Pike at timepoint X before Kirk's known captaincy, it's extremely difficult to argue that this shouldn't be, for any and all values of X.
Timo Saloniemi
Garamet:
You've referred a couple of times to Kirk as first officer of the Farragut. I'm sure that's not true. His rank was Lieutenant, and McCoy refers to the first officer when he's arguing with Kirk about why he shouldn't feel guilty. He says something about how the first officer of the Farragut said Kirk performed "with uncommon bravery."
As for the original question, two things. First, there's no overt canon reference either to Kirk having commanded another ship before Enterprise, or Enterprise being his first command. As others have pointed out, Kirk had special reverance for Enterprise because it and the 11 other Constitution-class ships were considered Starleet's finest ships and crew.
Second, it flies in the face of reason that no matter how accomplished he was as an officer, Kirk would get a Constitution-class ship without having a previous command at maybe the rank of Commander. I personally believe he may have also been a first officer at the rank of Lieutanant Commander before rising to be a commanding officer.
Red Ranger
Niemz:
Just saying it doesn't make it so. Where's your evidence? From what ep? Which line? Who said it? Or as my old journalism professor would write in the margins of an unattributed statement, "Says who?"
RR
There's actually some wriggle room for Kirk to have been captain of several ships prior to the Enterprise. We're so used to see captains command the same ships for many years in the individual shows, but some commands may only last a few months or even weeks. It's plausible that Kirk cut his teeth on a number of smaller short-term commands before landing a big one like the Enterprise, IMO.
Still, I tend to go with the idea that Kirk was the youngest officer to reach the actual rank of captain at the time...
Still, I tend to go with the idea that Kirk was the youngest officer to reach the actual rank of captain at the time...
Obsession: U.S.S. Farragaut... the son of the captain, he first served under and who was killed by that creature, served aboard Enterprise...
I wasn't going to post this, but what the hell.
2249 - Age 17 - With the backing of Commodore Mallory, James T. Kirk, second son of the late Commander George Kirk, enters Starfleet Academy at the youngest age allowed.
2253 - Age 21 - Kirk graduates from SFA, is commissioned an Ensign and posted to the USS Republic an older light cruiser commanded by Capt. Garrovick.
2254 - Age 22 - Republic is damaged and sent back to Earth for repairs Capt Garrovick is transferred to the USS Farragut, Constitution class heavy cruiser, whose skipper was killed on a mission, he takes several officers with him as crew replacements including Kirk. Later Kirk is promoted to Lt. jg and acts as Garrovick’s aide at the Axanar Peace Mission.
2255 - Age 23 - Farragut is attacked by the cloud creature at Tychos IV, Garrovick is killed along with half the crew, Kirk helps bring the crippled ship into port. Kirk is nominated to Command School and travels back to Earth to begin the curriculum.
2256 - Age 24 - Kirk is re-united with an old friend: Gary Mitchell, an upperclassman in the history class he teaches. Kirk beats the Kobayashi Maru scenario, he is awarded a commendation for ‘original thinking’ and promoted to full Lt. He also becomes involved with Carol Marcus at this time.
2257 - Age 25 - Kirk graduates from Command School with high honors, he is assigned as Navigation Officer aboard the USS El Dorado a light cruiser commanded by Capt. Stone.
2259 - Age 27 - Kirk is promoted to Lt. Cmdr. and transferred to the heavy cruiser USS Constitution as Executive Officer under Capt. Rexar Vetra of Andor.
2260 - Age 28 - Kirk takes command after the Captain is killed during an engagement with a Klingon cruiser and 3 destroyers, he evades then re-engages crippling 2 of the destroyers, damaging the cruiser and forcing a Klingon withdrawal. He is awarded the Medal of Honor, Karagite Order of Heroism and a Starfleet Combat Command Star. Upon his return to Earth Kirk is posted to his first command the older light destroyer USS Ariel, he requests Lt. jg Gary Mitchell as navigator.
2261 - Age 29 – Kirk’s on again - off again romance with Carol Marcus results in a son. At Carol’s request Kirk distances himself from them.
2262 - Age 30 - Kirk is promoted to Commander and posted to the heavy frigate USS Lydia Sutherland, here he first meets the irascible Lt. Leonard McCoy MD.
2263 - Age 31 - Kirk and Lydia Sutherland protect the Arulia outpost from a Tholian swarm. Alone they hold on for 97 hours before reinforcements arrive. Kirk is awarded the Star of Valor and promoted to Captain.
2264 - Age 32 - Kirk is assigned to command the USS Enterprise, the handpicked successor of Fleet Captain Christopher Pike. Undertakes mission to the galaxy’s edge.
2265 - Age 33 – Kirk begins five-year mission of exploration aboard the Enterprise.
2249 - Age 17 - With the backing of Commodore Mallory, James T. Kirk, second son of the late Commander George Kirk, enters Starfleet Academy at the youngest age allowed.
2253 - Age 21 - Kirk graduates from SFA, is commissioned an Ensign and posted to the USS Republic an older light cruiser commanded by Capt. Garrovick.
2254 - Age 22 - Republic is damaged and sent back to Earth for repairs Capt Garrovick is transferred to the USS Farragut, Constitution class heavy cruiser, whose skipper was killed on a mission, he takes several officers with him as crew replacements including Kirk. Later Kirk is promoted to Lt. jg and acts as Garrovick’s aide at the Axanar Peace Mission.
2255 - Age 23 - Farragut is attacked by the cloud creature at Tychos IV, Garrovick is killed along with half the crew, Kirk helps bring the crippled ship into port. Kirk is nominated to Command School and travels back to Earth to begin the curriculum.
2256 - Age 24 - Kirk is re-united with an old friend: Gary Mitchell, an upperclassman in the history class he teaches. Kirk beats the Kobayashi Maru scenario, he is awarded a commendation for ‘original thinking’ and promoted to full Lt. He also becomes involved with Carol Marcus at this time.
2257 - Age 25 - Kirk graduates from Command School with high honors, he is assigned as Navigation Officer aboard the USS El Dorado a light cruiser commanded by Capt. Stone.
2259 - Age 27 - Kirk is promoted to Lt. Cmdr. and transferred to the heavy cruiser USS Constitution as Executive Officer under Capt. Rexar Vetra of Andor.
2260 - Age 28 - Kirk takes command after the Captain is killed during an engagement with a Klingon cruiser and 3 destroyers, he evades then re-engages crippling 2 of the destroyers, damaging the cruiser and forcing a Klingon withdrawal. He is awarded the Medal of Honor, Karagite Order of Heroism and a Starfleet Combat Command Star. Upon his return to Earth Kirk is posted to his first command the older light destroyer USS Ariel, he requests Lt. jg Gary Mitchell as navigator.
2261 - Age 29 – Kirk’s on again - off again romance with Carol Marcus results in a son. At Carol’s request Kirk distances himself from them.
2262 - Age 30 - Kirk is promoted to Commander and posted to the heavy frigate USS Lydia Sutherland, here he first meets the irascible Lt. Leonard McCoy MD.
2263 - Age 31 - Kirk and Lydia Sutherland protect the Arulia outpost from a Tholian swarm. Alone they hold on for 97 hours before reinforcements arrive. Kirk is awarded the Star of Valor and promoted to Captain.
2264 - Age 32 - Kirk is assigned to command the USS Enterprise, the handpicked successor of Fleet Captain Christopher Pike. Undertakes mission to the galaxy’s edge.
2265 - Age 33 – Kirk begins five-year mission of exploration aboard the Enterprise.
The only factual things we know are:
- Pike commanded the Enterprise before Kirk for about ten years.
- Kirk took command of the Enterprise after Pike and that was the only time he met him. It’s possible he could have seen Pike sometime before yet never actually spoke to the man. It’s safe to assume Kirk knew of Pike before he actually met him. In fairness, though, bringing Kirk and Pike together before transfer of command is being just too cute and fanboyish.
- Roddenberry’s intention is pretty clear: both Pike and Kirk hold the rank of Captain when we see them in their respective times, regardless of any confusion over whatever their respective uniform braiding may or may not infer. A reasonable assumption would be that how rank is denoted by uniform braiding changed from the Pike and WNMHGB time to TOS.
- Elizabeth Dehner makes a specific reference to Kirk’s first command. This onscreen reference supports the material from Kirk’s bio in the Writer’s Guide that Kirk commanded a destroyer equivalent class starship as his first command. These two things also support a more credible scenario that Starfleet would not grant command of one their most prized ships to an inexperienced officer no matter what kind of wunderkind he seemed to be, but rather to someone who had some proven command experience under his belt. That would certainly demonstrate more responsible judgment and leadership on Starfleet’s part.
- In WNMHGB Kirk and Spock do not seem overly familiar with each other. True there’s nothing onscreen to establish they had never met before Kirk assuming command, but it’s pretty damned clear they’re not that familiar with each other to the point they’re not friends yet. Suffice to say that if the forthcoming movie establishes a friendship between Kirk and Spock before Kirk’s command of the Enterprise then that will be inconsistent with what we see in WNMHGB and the early episodes of the series.
- In TAS’ “The Counter-Clock Incident” Roddenberry intended to establish onscreen that Robert T. April was the first commander of the Enterprise. For a lot of people TAS has as much validity as anything else onscreen and so Robert April is widely accepted as the ship’s first commander. If the movie refutes this after decades of widespread acceptance then it’s merely cementing the issue that it’s an alternate timeline and/or a restart. That said there is nothing establishing how long April commanded the Enterprise. He could have commanded it for only one or two or three years before moving on and being replaced by Pike. That said I will say I think Bruce Greenwood as Pike is good casting.
- We know what the Enterprise looks like both during TOS and in Pike’s era. If it is more than moderately contemporized for the forthcoming movie then it is cemented as an alternate timeline and/or restart. Tweaking a few details is one thing, but drastic revision is a definite break with established fact.
- We know what the uniforms of “The Cage” era look like. Again anything more than moderate tweaking for the sake of consistency and contemporary production standards is outright revisionism.
- In WNMHGB it’s established that Kirk and Mitchell are good friends since the Academy. It doesn’t say they’ve been serving together for any prolonged period of time. Indeed Dehner’s reference to Kirk asking for Mitchell aboard “his first command” suggests that Kirk and Mitchell renewed their friendship when Kirk finally got Mitchell assigned to the Enterprise (Dehner’s remark also suggest Kirk’s request for Mitchell wasn’t granted the first time around for his first command). If Mitchell doesn’t make an appearance in the movie or isn’t even referenced it will be rather odd since Kirk and Mitchell are obviously a lot closer in WNMHGB than Kirk and Spock.
- In WNMHGB the only familiar faces are Kirk, Spock, Scotty and Sulu. This does support the subtext that McCoy and the younger personnel of Uhura, Janice Rand, Chekov and Chapel might not have been assigned to the Enterprise yet. Yet the mere notion that they’re casting all those roles and shoehorning them into a story supposedly set prior to Kirk taking command of the Enterprise is too damned cute for words. The characters were evidently not all of the same age and certainly did not attend the Academy at the same time. The internal chronology of TOS supports Kirk at the Academy while Spock is already on starship duty with Pike. Scotty and McCoy’s ages are older than the others and they likely attended the Academy before Kirk and Spock. Sulu and Uhura are about the same age yet younger than Kirk and Spock so Sulu and Uhura could be Academy contemporaries, but they would have been at the Academy after Kirk and Spock. Finally Chekov and Janice Rand seem to be about a year apart in age and so they could have been at the Academy around the same time. And the early episodes with Chekov do seem to suggest that he is reasonably fresh out of the Academy by about a year or so.
What we do not know and may never know:
- What ship Kirk commanded before being posted to the Enterprise.
- Whether he held the rank of Captain or Commander during that prior command posting. And note that even if he held the rank of Commander he could still be referred to as “Captain.”
- We don’t know how many have commanded the Enterprise. We know of April, Pike, Kirk and Decker (albeit briefly). If you accept TWoK then you also have Spock. The only credible way to shoehorn in any other commanders would be to have the ship being older than she appears or the onscreen evidence seems to suggest. In “The Cage” Jose Tyler’s reference to “our new ships” strongly suggests the Enterprise is one of those “new ships,” but we don’t know this as irrefutable fact. And Tyler’s remark implies “new” means ships launched since the Columbia’s disappearance. Factually we don’t know how old the Enterprise is. The date 2245 is often recognized, but much depends upon the dating of other events in continuity. And 2245 has never been stated onscreen anywhere, but rather only in printed references decades after TOS was out of production. In Stephen E. Whitfield’s The Making Of Star Trek there is a reference to Enterprise class ships having existed for “about forty years,” but what this reference means is subject to interpretation. Is it saying the Enterprise herself is actually about forty years old at the time of TOS or that ships similar to the Enterprise have existed for about forty years? I’m inclined to believe the latter, but it is open to conjecture. The Columbia disappeared eighteen years prior to the events in “The Cage” which is set thirteen years before TOS. Thus the Columbia disappeared thirty-one years prior to TOS. Thirty-one years is just in the ballpark of “about forty years” prior to TOS in regards to a generalized printed reference. But it doesn’t establish whether those ships are specifically Constitution-class starships or merely deep space exploratory cruisers that are earlier versions of the type of ships of which the Enterprise is one. Again I’m more inclined to accept the latter as more likely.
- Pike commanded the Enterprise before Kirk for about ten years.
- Kirk took command of the Enterprise after Pike and that was the only time he met him. It’s possible he could have seen Pike sometime before yet never actually spoke to the man. It’s safe to assume Kirk knew of Pike before he actually met him. In fairness, though, bringing Kirk and Pike together before transfer of command is being just too cute and fanboyish.
- Roddenberry’s intention is pretty clear: both Pike and Kirk hold the rank of Captain when we see them in their respective times, regardless of any confusion over whatever their respective uniform braiding may or may not infer. A reasonable assumption would be that how rank is denoted by uniform braiding changed from the Pike and WNMHGB time to TOS.
- Elizabeth Dehner makes a specific reference to Kirk’s first command. This onscreen reference supports the material from Kirk’s bio in the Writer’s Guide that Kirk commanded a destroyer equivalent class starship as his first command. These two things also support a more credible scenario that Starfleet would not grant command of one their most prized ships to an inexperienced officer no matter what kind of wunderkind he seemed to be, but rather to someone who had some proven command experience under his belt. That would certainly demonstrate more responsible judgment and leadership on Starfleet’s part.
- In WNMHGB Kirk and Spock do not seem overly familiar with each other. True there’s nothing onscreen to establish they had never met before Kirk assuming command, but it’s pretty damned clear they’re not that familiar with each other to the point they’re not friends yet. Suffice to say that if the forthcoming movie establishes a friendship between Kirk and Spock before Kirk’s command of the Enterprise then that will be inconsistent with what we see in WNMHGB and the early episodes of the series.
- In TAS’ “The Counter-Clock Incident” Roddenberry intended to establish onscreen that Robert T. April was the first commander of the Enterprise. For a lot of people TAS has as much validity as anything else onscreen and so Robert April is widely accepted as the ship’s first commander. If the movie refutes this after decades of widespread acceptance then it’s merely cementing the issue that it’s an alternate timeline and/or a restart. That said there is nothing establishing how long April commanded the Enterprise. He could have commanded it for only one or two or three years before moving on and being replaced by Pike. That said I will say I think Bruce Greenwood as Pike is good casting.
- We know what the Enterprise looks like both during TOS and in Pike’s era. If it is more than moderately contemporized for the forthcoming movie then it is cemented as an alternate timeline and/or restart. Tweaking a few details is one thing, but drastic revision is a definite break with established fact.
- We know what the uniforms of “The Cage” era look like. Again anything more than moderate tweaking for the sake of consistency and contemporary production standards is outright revisionism.
- In WNMHGB it’s established that Kirk and Mitchell are good friends since the Academy. It doesn’t say they’ve been serving together for any prolonged period of time. Indeed Dehner’s reference to Kirk asking for Mitchell aboard “his first command” suggests that Kirk and Mitchell renewed their friendship when Kirk finally got Mitchell assigned to the Enterprise (Dehner’s remark also suggest Kirk’s request for Mitchell wasn’t granted the first time around for his first command). If Mitchell doesn’t make an appearance in the movie or isn’t even referenced it will be rather odd since Kirk and Mitchell are obviously a lot closer in WNMHGB than Kirk and Spock.
- In WNMHGB the only familiar faces are Kirk, Spock, Scotty and Sulu. This does support the subtext that McCoy and the younger personnel of Uhura, Janice Rand, Chekov and Chapel might not have been assigned to the Enterprise yet. Yet the mere notion that they’re casting all those roles and shoehorning them into a story supposedly set prior to Kirk taking command of the Enterprise is too damned cute for words. The characters were evidently not all of the same age and certainly did not attend the Academy at the same time. The internal chronology of TOS supports Kirk at the Academy while Spock is already on starship duty with Pike. Scotty and McCoy’s ages are older than the others and they likely attended the Academy before Kirk and Spock. Sulu and Uhura are about the same age yet younger than Kirk and Spock so Sulu and Uhura could be Academy contemporaries, but they would have been at the Academy after Kirk and Spock. Finally Chekov and Janice Rand seem to be about a year apart in age and so they could have been at the Academy around the same time. And the early episodes with Chekov do seem to suggest that he is reasonably fresh out of the Academy by about a year or so.
What we do not know and may never know:
- What ship Kirk commanded before being posted to the Enterprise.
- Whether he held the rank of Captain or Commander during that prior command posting. And note that even if he held the rank of Commander he could still be referred to as “Captain.”
- We don’t know how many have commanded the Enterprise. We know of April, Pike, Kirk and Decker (albeit briefly). If you accept TWoK then you also have Spock. The only credible way to shoehorn in any other commanders would be to have the ship being older than she appears or the onscreen evidence seems to suggest. In “The Cage” Jose Tyler’s reference to “our new ships” strongly suggests the Enterprise is one of those “new ships,” but we don’t know this as irrefutable fact. And Tyler’s remark implies “new” means ships launched since the Columbia’s disappearance. Factually we don’t know how old the Enterprise is. The date 2245 is often recognized, but much depends upon the dating of other events in continuity. And 2245 has never been stated onscreen anywhere, but rather only in printed references decades after TOS was out of production. In Stephen E. Whitfield’s The Making Of Star Trek there is a reference to Enterprise class ships having existed for “about forty years,” but what this reference means is subject to interpretation. Is it saying the Enterprise herself is actually about forty years old at the time of TOS or that ships similar to the Enterprise have existed for about forty years? I’m inclined to believe the latter, but it is open to conjecture. The Columbia disappeared eighteen years prior to the events in “The Cage” which is set thirteen years before TOS. Thus the Columbia disappeared thirty-one years prior to TOS. Thirty-one years is just in the ballpark of “about forty years” prior to TOS in regards to a generalized printed reference. But it doesn’t establish whether those ships are specifically Constitution-class starships or merely deep space exploratory cruisers that are earlier versions of the type of ships of which the Enterprise is one. Again I’m more inclined to accept the latter as more likely.
Whenever discussing these kinds of things in regards to continuity and blasted "canon" I see it as something of detective work and trying to see which evidence is the most credible. Certainly not everything referenced "in print" carries as much weight as what is referenced onscreen (and some of it is even contradictory), but when printed references support onscreen references and subtext then I'm usually inclined to accord it more weight.
Similar threads
