Did James Kirk command a ship before the Enterprise ?
- Thread starter Bones1864
- Start date
I tend to agree with Warped9 on this.
Minor nits:
Not really. We know he commanded the ship about ten years before Kirk, but the length of his tenure is not known. For all we know, he transferred to the Insignificant two days after "The Cage", taking Spock with him.
Nope, Kirk met Pike when the latter was promoted to Fleet Captain. There is no mention of a handover of the ship in "The Menagerie".
...Although interestingly enough, Spock and Gary Mitchell are said to have been close colleagues for years. Perhaps both served under Pike? What effect this has on Kirk's wish to have Mitchell aboard his first command is unclear.
However, "eras" come and go. And while we might expect the big starship to retain her basic characteristics for a relatively long period, uniform styles can change overnight. So an adventure taking place "close to the date of The Cage" might easily feature a completely different uniform style (and/or rank indication system) without creating a contradiction.
Timo Saloniemi
Not really. We know he commanded the ship about ten years before Kirk, but the length of his tenure is not known. For all we know, he transferred to the Insignificant two days after "The Cage", taking Spock with him.
Nope, Kirk met Pike when the latter was promoted to Fleet Captain. There is no mention of a handover of the ship in "The Menagerie".
...Although interestingly enough, Spock and Gary Mitchell are said to have been close colleagues for years. Perhaps both served under Pike? What effect this has on Kirk's wish to have Mitchell aboard his first command is unclear.
However, "eras" come and go. And while we might expect the big starship to retain her basic characteristics for a relatively long period, uniform styles can change overnight. So an adventure taking place "close to the date of The Cage" might easily feature a completely different uniform style (and/or rank indication system) without creating a contradiction.
Timo Saloniemi
Yes, Spock does call Kirk, "Jim" in the briefing room. Also, from the tone of the beginning chess game it seems that they are somewhat familiar with each other as Kirk teases Spock about "his bad blood."
In fact, the dialog in the turbolift with Kirk, Spock and Mitchell seems to connote a working relationship that isn't quite brand-spanking new as does the dialog by Dehner indicating that Spock, along with Kirk, has served for sometime with Mitchell.
WHNHB doesn't seem to suggest that this is the "first mission" or earliest mission of Kirk and Spock. In fact, nothing in the script or dialog suggest that they've just met. Also, Spock's doling of advice to Kirk and the color/division of his uniform seems to indicate that he is the first officer and not the accepted fanon choice of Mitchell. He only acts as the ship's navigator/helmsmen.
WHNHB, like "The Cage" before it, seems to be smack in the middle of the "mission" not at the beginning. So it's far game as to when, where and how Kirk and Spock met, if they new each other before the second pilot.
Early episodes of TOS also indicate that Kirk and Spock are close in some manner. In "The Corbomite Maneuver," Kirk asks Spock for advice but has already made his decision. Spock retorts, "Why do constantly ask me about things you've made your mind about?"
To which Kirk says, "Emotional security."
In "The Man Trap," Uhura chastises Spock for not reacting to the news a crewman has died stating that it could be Captain Kirk, whom she refers to "as the closest thing on this ship that you (Spock) have to a friend."
Just because WHNHB was the second pilot, it is not a coming together pilot like TNG's EaF but in mid-action pilot like "The Cage" and can hardly be used to make a blanket statement that Kirk and Spock only just met.
Considering that "Where No Man" opens at the very edge of the galaxy, at a place Kirk considers "impossible" for previous Earth adventurers to have visited, it seems likely that the entire crew has already spent considerable time together...
...in months upon months of uneventful transit to this assignment. They might still have met for the very first time when the mission to the edge of the galaxy began.
Generally speaking, we might argue that everybody in Starfleet knows of each other, and that when these personnel are assigned together, this casual knowledge suddenly transforms to "a long history together". Moreover, whenever Kirk has a friendship that "goes way back", we might assume it consists of chance meetings every five years or so. After all, even the mother of Kirk's child seldom met our good captain!
Timo Saloniemi
...in months upon months of uneventful transit to this assignment. They might still have met for the very first time when the mission to the edge of the galaxy began.
Generally speaking, we might argue that everybody in Starfleet knows of each other, and that when these personnel are assigned together, this casual knowledge suddenly transforms to "a long history together". Moreover, whenever Kirk has a friendship that "goes way back", we might assume it consists of chance meetings every five years or so. After all, even the mother of Kirk's child seldom met our good captain!
Timo Saloniemi
Starfleet must be too big for everyone to know each other well. Maybe there are certain individuals who's reputation gets around.
The edited opening, where Kirk says they are leaving Earth and the Solar system behind, seems to indicate they are not yet on a 5-year deep space mission. I think the commonly-held belief that this happens before the events of the 5YM makes the most sense, but as Timo says, it would have taken awhile to get where they were going. It is wide open just how much these officers have seen or served with each other before they embarked on the WNMHGB mission.
^Indeed as I stated above that it's fair game as to the exact place and time Kirk and Spock met. Also, the original narration states "The U.S.S.Enterprise. Until now its task of space law regulation, contact with Earth's colonies, and investigation of alien life, had always kept the vessel within galaxy limits."
However, based on this statement alone it is hard to determine how long Kirk has been in command of the Big E, but it still can be deduce that he has been in command for a period of space patrol before having new orders cut to head out for the galactic edge. It seems unlikely that Kirk was speaking of the Enterprise before his taking command.
However, based on this statement alone it is hard to determine how long Kirk has been in command of the Big E, but it still can be deduce that he has been in command for a period of space patrol before having new orders cut to head out for the galactic edge. It seems unlikely that Kirk was speaking of the Enterprise before his taking command.
yes he did..
there were several things from the banter while playing chess to the frank way both speak to each other at times to the end scene made believe that while they will grow closer that they already had known each other for awhile at the time of wnmhgb.
we know directly from the dialog that spock had served with gary for awhile but there is also a line that seems to point that spock had known both gary and kirk.
spock.
this from kirk also seems to indicate that all three had known each even if it was kirk and spock meeting /knowing each other before hand due to mitchell.
i just dont see two people talking to each other the way they do in that one scene if they had just meet and started serving together.
I wish someday that the original '65 Pilot could be totally restored someday, complete with original soundtrack and act cards.
Similar threads
