Did James Kirk command a ship before the Enterprise ?

[garamet]

There's nothing canonical to indicate that Kirk commanded a vessel prior to Enterprise. He was, as others have indicated, first officer of the Republic, with Captain Garrovick as his CO.

His promotion to captain, and assuming command of Enterprise were, per screen-Trek, simultaneous.

 

[aridas sofia]

There's nothing canonical to indicate that Kirk commanded a vessel prior to Enterprise.

That's true, but the TOS Writers' Guide and TMoST saying he commanded a destroyer-equivalent before the Enterprise gives us a pretty good indication what the people that came up with the character intended.

He was, as others have indicated, first officer of the Republic, with Captain Garrovick as his CO.

I believe the episode ("Obsession") didn't mention anything about Kirk being first officer. He served under Garrovick on the Farragut as a lieutenant, "on his first deep-space assignment". He served on Republic as an ensign per "Court Martial".

His promotion to captain, and assuming command of Enterprise were, per screen-Trek, simultaneous.

Again, I can't recall this being stated in any episode. Do you recall where you saw it?

 

[garamet]

^You're right, it was Farragut, not Republic.

And the folks at Paramount have said for years that only what you see onscreen is "canon," regardless of who wrote what or when.

Kirk's simultaneous promotion and assignment to Enterprise are never specifically stated, but since there's no mention onscreen of his having commanded a ship as captain before Enterprise, it's implied, particularly in "Menagerie."

 

[The Old Mixer]

There's no mention onscreen of him having gone to primary school, either...but that doesn't mean that we can assume he skipped it.

 

[AC84]

Rumor has it that in the new movie, Chris Pine will be promoted to Captain and CO of the Enterprise by Chris Pike at the end of the movie......Oh wait, I'm sorry. Jim Kirk will be.

 

[garamet]

^If the rumor's true, then it's certainly consistent with what's implied in "Menagerie."

The Old Mixer said:
There's no mention onscreen of him having gone to primary school, either...but that doesn't mean that we can assume he skipped it.

It's more of a feel than anything else. Why would the command of Enterprise be of such vital importance to him that he rhapsodizes about "never lose you...never" if she were just another ship under his command?

 

[aridas sofia]

^ Perhaps because it is a "big deal" command carrying out a "big deal" mission. One of "only twelve like her," on a five year mission into the unknown.

 

[The Old Mixer]

^Exactly. This was the ultimate achievement for a Starfleet captain--command of a starship (which, in TOS, was implied to be only those 12 ships of the class that we now call Constitution). Doesn't mean he didn't cut his teeth in a lesser command as one of his steps towards achieving that goal. Kind of like being a governor or congressman before achieving the presidency.

 

[garamet]

Well, I'd certainly welcome any proof that he captained a ship prior to Enterprise, but I'm not seeing it onscreen.

 

[The Old Mixer]

How would you interpret his exchange with Garth in "Whom Gods Destroy"? From memory, Garth compliments him on being a great military commander. Kirk's reply is, "I'm mainly an explorer now." The mission of the Enterprise didn't change during Kirk's command. And he's a career Starfleet officer, he didn't transfer from another service in which he commanded ground forces. The most logical way of interpreting this line is that he had previously commanded a combat vessel in a wartime situation...long enough and successfully enough to have made an impression on somebody like Garth.

There's also the line in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" in which Sally Kellerman's character reminds Kirk that he'd asked for Gary Mitchell on his first command. I think some interpret that to mean that the Enterprise is his first command...but she's actually referring to it as if it were another command, not the one he's currently serving.

IIRC, all of the onscreen references to his previous starship experience also leave enough of a gap in the years immediately preceding his command of the Enterprise for him to have served a couple years as commander of another vessel.

He also had a lot of combat-oriented decorations as of "Court-Martial", a first season episode. While one can certainly rationalize that he earned all of those in a subordinate role, it's more likely, given the above, that at least some of them reflect his experience as a commander in wartime.

 

[cooleddie74]

The only canon ships we KNOW Kirk served on prior to commanding the Enterprise were the Republic(at the Academy for training cruises)and the Farragut. Everything else is from non-canon novels and comics.

 

[garamet]

"Commander" doesn't necessarily mean "captain."

He could have done some brilliant tactical things at any command rank that would have gotten Garth's attention. He may have been at the conn when the captain of whatever vessel he was on was offduty, injured, etc. Maybe when Garrovick was killed by the vampire cloud, as first officer Kirk was responsible for saving the ship.

Then again, Garth was mad. Who knows how much of what he said was true?

 

[The Old Mixer]

^Now it seems like you're jumping through hoops to justify why he didn't have a prior command. Occam's razor.

The ranks of "Commander" and "Captain" are different...but in a naval organization, "commander" is commonly used to describe the position of commanding a vessel...and, as others have pointed out, there's a tradition of being the captain of a smaller vessel with the rank of Commander. I believe submarine captains commonly hold that rank.

 

[garamet]

The Old Mixer said:
^Now it seems like you're jumping through hoops to justify why he didn't have a prior command. Occam's razor.

The ranks of "Commander" and "Captain" are different...but in a naval organization, "commander" is commonly used to describe the position of commanding a vessel...and, as others have pointed out, there's a tradition of being the captain of a smaller vessel with the rank of Commander. I believe submarine captains commonly hold that rank.

Looks as if we're approaching this from two different directions, then.

I'm not saying he didn't command a vessel prior to Enterprise. I'm saying it's my understanding from screen-Trek that he was promoted to captain and assumed command of Enterprise simultaneously.

So we're not actually contradicting each other.

 

[The Old Mixer]

^But from where do you derive that understanding? I can't think of a shred of onscreen evidence about the conditions under which he received either his promotion to the rank of Captain or his command of the Enterprise, other than the vague reference to Kirk having met Pike when he assumed command of the Enterprise.

 

[A beaker full of death]

As I stated above, the creative forces behind TOS had served. They modeled the service they created on WWII (with heavy influence from aircraft carrier service in particular). The overarching spirit of the thing, of course, was derived from the Napoleonic navies. in both, one simply didn't get command of a capital ship without first commanding a lesser ship (usually as a lieutenant or Lt. Commander). It's only reasonable to read that into the Starfleet they created. Much of what they wrote was written not only by veterans, but FOR an audience of veterans, which is why so much is implied and didn't have to be spelled out.

 

[Number_6]

If you look at a list of U.S. naval vessels and their captains, you'll find that a lot of them are only Lt. Cmdrs.

Wasn't Queeg a Lt. Cmdr. in The Caine Mutiny?

 

[cooleddie74]

And don't forget: on DS9 Worf was considered the recognized and official commanding officer of the Defiant when Sisko wasn't aboard, and he was only a lt. commander during his entire stint on the show.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Number_6 said:
Wasn't Queeg a Lt. Cmdr. in The Caine Mutiny?

I believe so.

 

[aridas sofia]

A beaker full of death said:
As I stated above, the creative forces behind TOS had served. They modeled the service they created on WWII (with heavy influence from aircraft carrier service in particular). The overarching spirit of the thing, of course, was derived from the Napoleonic navies. in both, one simply didn't get command of a capital ship without first commanding a lesser ship (usually as a lieutenant or Lt. Commander). It's only reasonable to read that into the Starfleet they created. Much of what they wrote was written not only by veterans, but FOR an audience of veterans, which is why so much is implied and didn't have to be spelled out.

Absolutely. It is important not to underestimate the influence of the 18th century Cook explorations AND the service of Stephen Decatur aboard the 1799 schooner Enterprize. As a 24 year old commander of Enterprize (rank: lieutenant) he led the attack in Tripolitan waters to burn the captured frigate Philadelphia. This Nelsonian feat immediately made Lieutenant Decatur a national hero. He was promoted -- with the consent of the officers over whose heads he was raised -- to post captain, and given command in October 1804 of one of the navy's premier frigates -- Constitution. He was only 25 years old.

At that time a commanding officer led his landing and boarding parties. It wasn't unusual to see a man earn the rank of captain by 30 years of age. Decatur's experience beginning on Enterprize was extraordinary, but not without parallel. And taken with Cook's explorations, I believe it forms the basis for the Kirk character. From the perspective of the people creating him, the example of Cook and the young Decatur seemed more apropos to a descendant of 1960's astronauts than that of a middle aged WW2 cruiser commander.