Did Chakotay and Janeway ever have secret romantic feelings for one another

[Catarina]

I'm going with what Robert Beltran said in a interview, Chakotay was never "into" Janeway. And in the case of Resolutions it was simply she was going to be the only girl in town.

I don't think he was pining. I agree. Respect with a dash of attraction, sure.
But take his interviews with a grain of salt. He has changed his opinions as the show progressed.which is not a bad thing. But he has commented he wanted to explore them because it might be interesting on a couple occassions. I mention one example below. I have noticed after Kate made her statement, which was far more thought out as usual, he took a different stand as if, yeah he what she said. People can change their minds but now he states it like it was a concrete decision. Nottt.


To the OP: Someone asked this question at a convention and I can't recall it verbatim, but his sarcastic response was this:
Beltran: I don't think Chakotay had romantic feelings for the Captain? (Looks at crowd as if to inquire their view)(Crowd boos)
Beltran: oh, right! We were all (military pose) Starfleet when people were looking but when we were alone? (Hoots)we were getting it on all the time! We used to role play. I would be the Captain. (Crowd girl shouts: not gunna happen!) Let's get those shields down to 30%, baby"

That's all I remember . But later in that same panel, he did tell a fan in his sincere tone that had they explored it it would have been fun. And as we all know he was eager for a good story for his character. but from his opinion he makes it clear Seven would have been his pick. Haha. Aside from her obvious looks, Jeri Ryan is so laid back and playful. It was probably refreshing to be around on an 18 hrs shift.

Ammendment to my post: whether they were romantic secretly for each other I would gather depends on who wrote it, doesn't it? Taylor days or post Taylor days. I believe they wanted to write it that way but it was halted. Therefore Chakotay wasn't pining because his feels were altered to suit the new idea.

 

[Odonna]

I agree with this. A different time and a different place Janeway might have explored her feelings toward Chakotay romantically. Part of why she gave herself permission to pursue a relationship with Michael Sullivan was because there was no one in the crew a Captain could be with. I think it was funny how she altered Sullivan, tweaked him here and there. It was only when she accepted that isn't how real people work that she simulated actual humanity.

In Endgame when Admiral Janeway visits Chakotay's grave, I think that scene revealed how much she did feel for him. I know she spoke of how he had to live all those years without 'her' , without Seven. We have to go by the story and it is that Chakotay and Seven developed this great love. I however interpreted that Janeway felt a loss too, more than the words that separated Janeway and Chakotay as Captain and Commander.

Ahh, you’re one of “us”, Refuge! Thanks for the support.

Don’t get me started on Michael Sullivan… (seriously, don’t get me started…)

But I think you’re right about Admiral Janeway at Chakotay’s grave. It does make you wonder what happened to the Captain & First Officer dinners after they married… Did Seven come too? My guess is Seven might not appreciate their close friendship. You know, all of the touching and exchanging of wry looks. Of course, we only heard the story from the admiral… Who knows what really happened out in space in that other timeline… :-D

Yes, they did!
Watch "Resolutions", "Sacred Ground" and "Coda",

Lynx, I get the J/C in Resolutions and Coda of course. What is it that you see in Sacred Ground?
Alter Ego should go in there also, where Janeway takes Chakotay’s arm at the luau. And then it sort of went into remission. Q & the Grey, Unity etc.

4 to 8 months passed in the last 3 minutes of Resolutions.

The camera watched a tomato plant grow for 4 to 8 months.

That's a clear suggestion that our heroes enjoyed each others bodies.

Guy, have you ever watched a tomato plant grow? We’re talking weeks, not months! But it seems to be the case that the original script led to a kiss and then etc etc.

 

[Sophie74656]

I've heard a lot about this deleted kiss. Does anyone have an interview quote or anything where anyone actually talked about this?

 

[Sophie74656]

For what purpose? Create extra but useless drama with this love triangle, which could only put the three in an uncomfortable situation, under the derisive scrutinity of the rest of the crew, to the point of becoming the entertainment of the following months, while Tom Paris would take bets?!)
Nah, not only Jaffen or Chakotay would have no interest to fight for winning Janeway, if not upsetting her but I think that both have a pacifist mind. In fact, I believe that they would do anything to get along, whether a superficial understanding or a real friendship, for her.

And then, let's be honest, if we had compare the situations of Chakotay and Jaffen, it seems to me that the latter would be the incontestable winner. indeed, while Chakotay dreamed to win Kathryn's heart, and only got some signs of affection but no promise of a possible future together in return, on 7 years, she offered every ounce and fibre of her being to Jaffen on a short period of several months and if he had stayed on board, both would have taken their story where they had stayed but more surely, they would have made the promise to rekindle their relationship once back at home.

I don't think they would fight for her, I think there would just be tension between the two of them. Or at the least there may be some unease from Chakotay towards him.

I agree with out about Janeway. She may have returned a flirtation to Chakotay and a deep friendship, but she never really appeared to have romantic feelings for him.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

For what purpose? Create extra but useless drama with this love triangle, which could only put the three in an uncomfortable situation, under the derisive scrutinity of the rest of the crew, to the point of becoming the entertainment of the following months, while Tom Paris would take bets?!)
Nah, not only Jaffen or Chakotay would have no interest to fight for winning Janeway, if not upsetting her but I think that both have a pacifist mind. In fact, I believe that they would do anything to get along, whether a superficial understanding or a real friendship.

And then, let's be honest, if we had compare the situations of Chakotay and Jaffen, it seems to me that the latter would be the incontestable winner. indeed, while Chakotay dreamed to win Kathryn's heart, and only got some signs of affection but no promise of a possible future together in return, on 7 years, while she offered every ounce and fibre of her being to Jaffen on a short period of several months and if he had stayed on board, both would have taken their story where they had stayed but more surely, they would have made the promise to rekindle their relationship once back at home.

But, let's be reassured, seeing that neither of the producers or scriptwriters were interested in love life of the characters, except Jeri Taylor, we would never come to this love conflict!

 

[Odonna]

I've heard a lot about this deleted kiss. Does anyone have an interview quote or anything where anyone actually talked about this?

I had heard about the script only on the Forums previously, but then this is where I came across shots of the 3 script pages of that scene. They look legit. The script format, the typescript. I haven't tried to line up the date on it, but sounds about right. I've been fooled before, but you can decide for yourself.
http://kncrowder88.tumblr.com/post/104666685699/so-i-got-these-from-the-hardcore-janewaychakotay

Ghislaine, Don't forget that Voyager writer Bryan Fuller was also "interested in love life of the characters" and wanted Chakotay to be what became the Jaffen character:
"I would have liked to have seen some sort of acknowledgement of the relationship between Janeway and Chakotay, and I thought ‘Workforce’ would have been a great place to do that; instead of the Jaffen character, what if it were Chakotay, brainwashed, that Janeway was having the romance with? That would have been a place for us to explore that relationship, and especially the repercussions of how it would have impacted their relationship back on the ship."
— Bryan Fuller, Star Trek: The Magazine (June 2001)

 

[Sophie74656]

It seems they were interested in the love life of some characters. You had Harry falling in love with an alien woman, Seven trying to date, Tom and B'Elanna getting married and having a baby, and Janeway getting it on with a hologram.

 

[Odonna]

The Janeway x Chakotay was most likely the brainchild of Jeri Taylor. Like a lot of things in VOY season 1-3, were Jeri Taylor's ideas. Jeri Taylor, who at the time was a middle aged woman, got to write stories about a middle aged woman that she helped create. "Resolutions" being the most Janeway x Chakotay episode in the series.

Janeway's list of prowesses Taylor never failed to mention in any episode she wrote for her. For "Resolutions" when she's stranded on a planet, alone with a handsome Native man, in a small house, Janeway wears dresses for her scientific reconnaissance. Because, the episode was framed with Janeway trying to figure out a way to cure the virus and not about being a romantic rendezvous with the only man on the planet.

Other Taylor stories like this, would be the abandoned Mrs. Davenport holoprogram (meant to be like Dixon Hill on TNG) and the episode "Sub Rosa". Because Taylor herself is a fan of Gothic novels and those cheap romance paperbacks you can buy at the store.

People like SFDebris felt that Taylor wrote Janeway like a Mary Sue, because she came off as a wish fulfillment character of the writers. They took their own attributes and add them to her character. The same way Tom Paris is an expert at everything, through sheer lack of imagination on the creative side. Which could also explain Chakotay and Harry being so static and boring during their 7 year run.

By season 3/4 with the threat of cancellation hanging over head, many of the earlier ideas that VOY started out with were dropped. Including the Chakotay x Janeway romance. Not that it was coming from the best place to begin with anyway.

MACO, I know you’re not the first to say this about Jeri Taylor and Janeway, but I’m going to challenge it, because I think it’s a cop out, and probably sexist. Don’t you think that Captain Kirk was a wish fulfillment “Matthew Louis” or whatever you call the male version of “Mary Sue”, for Gene Roddenberry? Don’t you think Christopher Pike being pursued by a green Orion slave girl was one of Gene’s fantasies? Tell the truth now! :-D And Gene and Kirk were about the same age! And look at all of the Irish named characters in TOS! Of course every writer puts some of their own attributes into their characters. The big question is how skillful they are in doing it? If you want to say that Jeri Taylor and many of the others working on Voyager weren’t all that great of writers, I would agree with you. But don’t say it’s because Taylor likes romance. In the Golden Age of Hollywood, they knew they had to have a good romance in the story to attract most women to their movie. There was a name for it. I forget at the moment…

I’ve heard this claim that Jeri always lists “Janeway’s prowesses” in her episodes, but I would like to see examples of what you’re talking about. (Oh my gosh, characters such as McCoy and even Spock gushed like crazy about Capt Kirk in TOS. “Yes, Charlie, he’s one of a kind.” “A starship also runs on loyalty to one man. And nothing can replace it, or him.”)

Someone said that in Resolutions the crew on Voyager kept gushing about how wonderful Janeway was, and they missed only the captain. I watched Resolutions again just to check it out and neither of that is true at all. It is true that Chakotay says some nice things about her, but he’s trying to sweet talk her at the time!

My problem with Voyager wasn’t with what the earlier ideas were, but that its own premise was never developed in an interesting way to create for Voyager its own Star Trek identity. Every time there was a glimmer of something different and interesting it disappeared or was made bland and dull. Why was Chakotay and the Maquis domesticated so quickly--? We were told about fights on board between the crews, but except for the one with B’Elanna, not shown. Imagine tensions and problems like in Parallax but of different types on and off all through the first season. Later, Seska and Chakotay’s son are suddenly eliminated. Poof! And on it goes.

To get back to the topic, a friend once said, “These people don’t act like real humans stranded 70,000 light years away from home.” Yes, I’m a real contrarian on the topic of captain fraternization in this situation, and from the viewpoint of creativity. Why play out “the lonely captain” scenario once again? It’s been done several times already. This was a chance to actually explore the difficulties and the benefits of a captain in an adult committed relationship. Non-fraternization makes sense in the Alpha Quadrant where people can have regular leave, but not 70 years or more from home. Nobody signed up for that. They had a right to try to have full lives. Heck, some British Naval Captains and officers used to bring their wives on board during a cruise, even on warships. Finally in “Nemesis” we see Captain Riker serving with his wife Deanna Troi.

Since TPTB chose not to do the romance thing with Janeway & Chakotay, they should have at least done us the courtesy to have the characters talk candidly about their relationship, so we hear it from them why not. Some honest human drama. They wouldn’t even give us that. Lastly, barring all that, they could have left the relationship ambiguous to let the fans decide for themselves what’s been going on off screen. TV shows used to do that all the time (Perry Mason, The Avengers, etc). But these guys felt compelled to spell out the relationship in “Shattered” in the most clumsy way they possibly could. This graceless mentality on the part of the writers/producers is why so many of my friends quit watching back in the day, and is just one of many reasons I see Voyager as a great idea that was never fully realized.

 

[Sophie74656]

Since TPTB chose not to do the romance thing with Janeway & Chakotay, they should have at least done us the courtesy to have the characters talk candidly about their relationship, so we hear it from them why not. Some honest human drama. They wouldn’t even give us that. Lastly, barring all that, they could have left the relationship ambiguous to let the fans decide for themselves what’s been going on off screen.

This kind of confuses me because they DID this. Janeway made it clear she would not be involved with anyone under her command. So yes, you heard it from her exactly "why not". On top of that they DID lieave it somewhat ambiguous. They maintained a bit of a flirtation, had candlelit dinners, held hands....

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

It does make you wonder what happened to the Captain & First Officer dinners after they married… Did Seven come too? My guess is Seven might not appreciate their close friendship. You know, all of the touching and exchanging of wry looks. Of course, we only heard the story from the admiral… Who knows what really happened out in space in that other timeline… :-D

Bonté Divine, how did you come to the hypothesis that Seven could become jealous of the relationship between Janeway & Chakotay, once she married Chakotay? :-O

1. Seven has nothing to envy to Janeway/Chakotay's complicity as close friends because herself shared , as pupil, friend and almost surrogate daughter, an equally special relatioship with Janeway, which gave her an almost a free pass to go and bother the older woman, whatever the time of day or night, as soon as a question or an idea crossed her mind or even a sudden envy to talk about everything and anything about life and people in general (= the so-known philosophy debates they shared). In fact, Seven was lucky to know both Kathryn Janeway, the one with the mask of Captain and the one without it, who was much more relaxed and even funny -> only a few had this opportunity (Chakotay, Tuvok and maybe the Doctor and still!).

I trully think that even if she was now a married woman, she would ensure not to cut ties with Janeway and seek to spend comfortable time with her, outside Chakotay's presence, like sharing regurlarly lunches or diners followed by lengthy discussions. Maybe the frequency of their meetings will be reduced but they will still be there. In fact, the problem could come from Chakotay and not Janeway, in becoming frustrated to see his wife continuing to seek Janeway's advice and/or consent while as his husband, he should be the one where to turn. And consequently, jealous of the time his wife could spend with Janeway, instead of being with him for sexual intercourses or others activities.

2. You wrote that Janeway and Chakotay used to share looks*, words or allusions, diners in her quarters for informal briefings by candlelights during their 7 years forced (= stick on a vessel in the middle of an unknown quadrant proximity) suggesting a mutual or at least, a one-way attraction, depending of what we want to see or believe, but we know that except maybe a supposed kiss, nothing serious happened on a period of 7 years. Of course, Seven had to hear all the rumors circulating about a possible love affair between the 2 commanding officers and question some people like the Doctor, Tom Paris, Harry Kim, Neelix to determine their veracity and even maybe, observed ‎them countless times herself to make her own opinion, like she did with Tom/B'Elena and for what? To see, 2 people who behaved with professionalism and openness to each other, all in knowing retain a respective distance. Sorry but I do not see what could change things afterwards, especially if Seven and Chakotay were now a married couple.Janeway can still share informal briefing with Chakotay once a week in her quarters (while Seven is doing something else, working or sharing entertaining time with friends), invite the couple for a diner or be invited by the couple, etc... .

According to Janeway's past behavior, she is someone who firmly believes to the principle of commitment with someone (she remained faithful to Mark for 3 years despite more and less covert advance from Chakotay) so, I don't see her turning suddenly into home wrecker, now that her best friend and the young woman she considers like a daughter are a married couple. At worst, will she think of all the occasions that she missed to become a wife and why, maybe a mother herself but I'm pretty sure that she will do her best to make Chakotay/Seven work. And to keep ensure the happiness and well being of Seven.

(-> * note that I didn't talk about touches because we all saw how much tactile Janeway - and Mulgrew herself - was to show her support, her ‎encouragements, her ‎gratitude)

3. The real question in this matter will instead to know what will be Chakotay's attitude.
Indeed, a) if he married Seven really out of love and if he is decided to make her happy, there will be no problem. She will become the center of all his attentions, which can only satisfy Janeway's heart and mind. b) if he married Seven after a romantic disappointment (he wanted Kathryn but the latter wasn't interested or not anymore and he finally use Seven as a substitute), not only he will be unable to play the comedy of the loving husband for a very long time, but Seven will deeply hurt at the same time (if she tried as the former Borg is sincere in her feelings, of course) and she will leave him. At least, he will be alone AGAIN, .... and forced to face the hostility of Seven's friends against him, especially Janeway and the Doctor -> if Voyager is still in the DQ, the atmosphere risks to be sealed and Chakotay could find the time very very long c) Chakotay decides himself to cut the charade, to leave Seven and to assure Kathryn of his love, with the risk to take again a drubbing or the happiness of seeing her change her mind about him and a clear pathway to a future together is mapped d) Seven decides to cut the charade, realizing that she doesn't love her husband as she should, leaves him ‎and sets out to seduce someone (or why not, the Captain Janeway herself?! -> the J/7 is very large so, I guess that this coupling isn't so ridiculous). Or simply, to carry on with her life, even if that life looks like the one she had before her experience with Chakotay.
.

 

[Sophie74656]

Bonté Divine, how did you come to the hypothesis that Seven could become jealous of the relationship between Janeway & Chakotay, once she married Chakotay? :-O

1. Seven has nothing to envy to Janeway/Chakotay's complicity as close friends because herself shared , as pupil, friend and almost surrogate daughter, an equally special relatioship with Janeway, which gave her an almost a free pass to go and bother the older woman, whatever the time of day or night, as soon as a question or an idea crossed her mind or even a sudden envy to talk about everything and anything about life and people in general (= the so-known philosophy debates they shared). In fact, Seven was lucky to know both Kathryn Janeway, the one with the mask of Captain and the one without it, who was much more relaxed and even funny -> only a few had this opportunity (Chakotay, Tuvok and maybe the Doctor and still!).

I trully think that even if she was now a married woman, she would ensure not to cut ties with Janeway and seek to spend comfortable time with her, outside Chakotay's presence, like sharing regurlarly lunches or diners followed by lengthy discussions. Maybe the frequency of their meetings will be reduced but they will still be there. In fact, the problem could come from Chakotay and not Janeway, in becoming frustrated to see his wife continuing to seek Janeway's advice and/or consent while as his husband, he should be the one where to turn. And consequently, jealous of the time his wife could spend with Janeway, instead of being with him for sexual intercourses or others activities.

2. You wrote that Janeway and Chakotay used to share looks*, words or allusions, diners in her quarters for informal briefings by candlelights during their 7 years forced (= stick on a vessel in the middle of an unknown quadrant proximity) suggesting a mutual or at least, a one-way attraction, depending of what we want to see or believe, but we know that except maybe a supposed kiss, nothing serious happened on a period of 7 years. Of course, Seven had to hear all the rumors circulating about a possible love affair between the 2 commanding officers and question some people like the Doctor, Tom Paris, Harry Kim, Neelix to determine their veracity and even maybe, observed ‎them countless times herself to make her own opinion, like she did with Tom/B'Elena and for what? To see, 2 people who behaved with professionalism and openness to each other, all in knowing retain a respective distance. Sorry but I do not see what could change things afterwards, especially if Seven and Chakotay were now a married couple.Janeway can still share informal briefing with Chakotay once a week in her quarters (while Seven is doing something else, working or sharing entertaining time with friends), invite the couple for a diner or be invited by the couple, etc... .

According to Janeway's past behavior, she is someone who firmly believes to the principle of commitment with someone (she remained faithful to Mark for 3 years despite more and less covert advance from Chakotay) so, I don't see her turning suddenly into home wrecker, now that her best friend and the young woman she considers like a daughter are a married couple. At worst, will she think of all the occasions that she missed to become a wife and why, maybe a mother herself but I'm pretty sure that she will do her best to make Chakotay/Seven work. And to keep ensure the happiness and well being of Seven.

(-> * note that I didn't talk about touches because we all saw how much tactile Janeway - and Mulgrew herself - was to show her support, her ‎encouragements, her ‎gratitude)

3. The real question in this matter will instead to know what will be Chakotay's attitude.
Indeed, a) if he married Seven really out of love and if he is decided to make her happy, there will be no problem. She will become the center of all his attentions, which can only satisfy Janeway's heart and mind. b) if he married Seven after a romantic disappointment (he wanted Kathryn but the latter wasn't interested or not anymore and he finally use Seven as a substitute), not only he will be unable to play the comedy of the loving husband for a very long time, but Seven will deeply hurt at the same time (if she tried as the former Borg is sincere in her feelings, of course) and she will leave him. At least, he will be alone AGAIN, .... and forced to face the hostility of Seven's friends against him, especially Janeway and the Doctor -> if Voyager is still in the DQ, the atmosphere risks to be sealed and Chakotay could find the time very very long c) Chakotay decides himself to cut the charade, to leave Seven and to assure Kathryn of his love, with the risk to take again a drubbing or the happiness of seeing her change her mind about him and a clear pathway to a future together is mapped d) Seven decides to cut the charade, realizing that she doesn't love her husband as she should, leaves him ‎and sets out to seduce someone (or why not, the Captain Janeway herself?! -> the J/7 is very large so, I guess that this coupling isn't so ridiculous). Or simply, to carry on with her life, even if that life looks like the one she had before her experience with Chakotay.
.

Personally I kind of think it's odd if a married man has a close relationship with another woman. My brain knows it can be completely innocent and they can be just friends but I know of too many instanses where it ended up not being innocent. My own (ex) husband of 10 years had a close female friend that he would have dinner with often and right away I was never comfortable with it but never asked him not to go. About a year after that started I found out they were sleeping together the whole time.

 

[Lynx]

Lynx, I get the J/C in Resolutions and Coda of course. What is it that you see in Sacred Ground?
Alter Ego should go in there also, where Janeway takes Chakotay’s arm at the luau. And then it sort of went into remission. Q & the Grey, Unity etc.

In "Sacred Ground", Chakotay is doing everything he can to preventing Janeway from going to the tests and then trying to prevent her from walking into that energy field in order to save Kes's life. That show that he had a lot of feelings and concern for Janeway.

In fact, that was the only episode that Chakotay actually annoyed me when I first watched the episode because I wanted that Janeway should do what she planned to save Kes.

I agree on "Alter Ego" and the other episodes you mentioned.

 

[Lynx]

Personally I kind of think it's odd if a married man has a close relationship with another woman. My brain knows it can be completely innocent and they can be just friends but I know of too many instanses where it ended up not being innocent. My own (ex) husband of 10 years had a close female friend that he would have dinner with often and right away I was never comfortable with it but never asked him not to go. About a year after that started I found out they were sleeping together the whole time.

What a jerk!

A former girlfriend did something similar to me.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Ghislaine, Don't forget that Voyager writer Bryan Fuller was also "interested in love life of the characters" and wanted Chakotay to be what became the Jaffen character:
"I would have liked to have seen some sort of acknowledgement of the relationship between Janeway and Chakotay, and I thought ‘Workforce’ would have been a great place to do that; instead of the Jaffen character, what if it were Chakotay, brainwashed, that Janeway was having the romance with? That would have been a place for us to explore that relationship, and especially the repercussions of how it would have impacted their relationship back on the ship."
— Bryan Fuller, Star Trek: The Magazine (June 2001)

Don't worry, Odonna, I hadn't forgotten! ;-)

But honestly unless Kathryn Janeway and Chakotay are BOTH brainwashed, I don't see how the two could take action (I mean, living a love story far from everything regarding Voyager, for a few months), knowing that Kathryn Janeway repeatedly informed to whom it may concern (particularly Chakotay) that she would NEVER sleep with one of her subordinates and until episode 16 of season 7 (Workforce), she ‎has stuck to this principle.

Assuming that it is this scenario that was retained and despite the initial Fuller's intention to explore the J/C relationship after the unexpected fling with its impact and repercussions, we would have a scenario à la Threshold or Resolutions, with Janeway (especially her) and Chakotay (who will surely find it a bit hard, AGAIN), once back on aboard Voyager (and after to have been treated by the Doctor), acting as if there was nothing amiss, under the pretext that they weren't in their normal state and consequently, didn't control the actions. So, no impact... unless, Janeway has learnt that she was pregnant a few weeks after their return and there it would have been hard not to seriously deal with the issue. But do not dream, it is Star Trek Voyager!

 

[Odonna]

This kind of confuses me because they DID this. Janeway made it clear she would not be involved with anyone under her command. So yes, you heard it from her exactly "why not". On top of that they DID lieave it somewhat ambiguous. They maintained a bit of a flirtation, had candlelit dinners, held hands....

When did we see Janeway make it clear to Chakotay she would not be involved with anyone under her command, or to anyone else prior to Workforce?

Please give me the episode and scene. (because I just did a re-watch of the series and did not see it. But I could be forgetting…)

One might assume it happened off screen, but I’m suggesting it would have been nice to see an actual after hours conversation between Kathryn & Chakotay sometime in Season 3, preferably before the “Q and the Grey” and “Unity”. Maybe after a dinner, or on a holodeck excursion. (as an example) They’re having fun and he makes a move and she stops him. He asks why not, she says, you know, regulations. She reminds him of how he himself said it was difficult to work with and have a relationship with Seska. He says, you’re not Seska. Unless you’re actually a Nausican agent in disguise, I don’t foresee the same problems. They laugh. Then she tells him she still considers herself engaged to Mark and hopes to get back to him. Yada yada yada. He finally gives up and says I understand. She hopes this won’t affect their working relationship. He says it won’t, but hopes they can still be friends. She says, absolutely.

Or something like that. I would have liked to see an actual conversation. There is sort of one at the end of Hunters in S4. I’ve heard it was originally more about their own relationship, but got re-written and now it’s not. Now she says something like, “Well, I can’t use Mark as a crutch anymore. But then it’s not like I have any opportunities out here.” And Chakotay’s sitting right there looking like a beaten puppy…

But on the other hand, if they had left the relationship ambiguous, it would have worked for me. It’s the end of “Shattered” that I object to where Chakotay says there were “some barriers” they didn’t cross. Creative malpractice in my opinion, but that’s just me.

Don't worry, Odonna, I hadn't forgotten! ;-)
But honestly unless Kathryn Janeway and Chakotay are BOTH brainwashed, I don't see how the two could take action...

So, no impact... unless, Janeway has learnt that she was pregnant a few weeks after their return and there it would have been hard not to seriously deal with the issue. But do not dream, it is Star Trek Voyager!

Ghislaine, I think Fuller’s idea was that both Chakotay and Kathryn would be brainwashed or given the amnesia at the same time. No, it wouldn’t happen if only one were like that (as actually occurred in the episode).
And whoa, what a Great Idea that would have been, for Janeway to find herself pregnant! But alas, you are so right. Voyager never took any big chances like that. :-D
I will offer more comments later to respond to your other interesting thoughts as I am able.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

To Sophie74656,
I sincerely sympathize with you! What a jerk! I hope that since this unfortunate experience, you can smile again!

Concerning "infernal trio" or threesome (), it would be upsetting and unfair to see Seven being suddenly suspicious of Kathryn Janeway's intentions after all the latter has done for her, since joining Voyager, and all that because of a male presence (aka Chakotay)! . Besides, I sitll don't understand why Seven didn't informed Janeway about her dating with Chakotay, not necessary when she has began but
by the 3rd or 4 date, it might have been time to inform her?!

You know what really annoyed me in Seven/Chakotay's pairing? 1) they didn't match in my opinion and 2) this "association" formed of regression in the personality of these two characters too:
- Seven who was known as a strong personality (knowing what she wanted and ready to put the means at her disposal to achieve her goal, even if she incurred the wrath of the crew; putting people in their place regardless of their sensitivity; shockingly honest, arrogant, curious at point to interfere in all aspects of the private lives of people - in a research goal - but, hidding a devastating humor and a great sensitivity, which made her moving and friendly, became suddenly quite the opposite. Worst, while she was so independent and sometimes, extreme, she became a submissive woman under the pen of any macho scriptwriter and why in the end? To give to Chakotay an occasion to leading the story (oh yes, failing to shine by his heroism in last seasons, show him as a perfect suitor for the Ice Queen ... who can only melt before many deployed charm! ).
.....- Although his forced celibacy seems to end (even if it's not with the woman
many wanted! ), Chakotay's behavior towards Seven as Kathryn left me an unpleasant feeling. Indeed, as I said in another post, the character gave me the impression of arriving after the battle (fight he refused to deliver, btw - or even pay his mite -, leaving mainly Janeway and the Doctor do all the job), then coming appreciate, enjoy and take advantage of the result, once the project was completed* -> as a reminder, Chakotay, early thought that Tom Paris and later, Seven, were Janeway's personal project!

(a lot of fan fictions - on J/C, J/7 and even C/7 ... although in the end, he ended up being sincere in his feelings for her -, sadly confirmed this impression)

And about Endgame, I found Chakotay's attitude towards Janeway particularly improper! She wasn't only his superior although up to consider him as her equal (despite his past in the Maquis), but his best friend too (even if he wished more for a moment!), going up to answer questions about private matters (sometimes, with an inappropriate insistence), but when it came to him, he played the secretive, while the one he courted was none other than Janeway's protégée - what was to punish her to have definitively rejected him? -, Seven, who was incidentally, a young woman (maybe she looked liked a woman between 25-30 yo but her emotional maturity was the one of a child or at less, a young teenage girl), who was still in search of her humanity - even though she had already taken a big step in the right direction -, so even maybe, with some emotional fragility making her out of control (and we saw how bad she reacted so, it wasn't unlikely!) and so, a potential risk for the safety of Voyager vessel and the crew. Despite all that, Chakotay seemed to put his libido before his duties of moral and material support to his Captain & dear friend, while the latter seemed really need support see comfort and that, wasn't ok for me! He could and should wait to court Seven and
especially not to make her promises that he wasn't sure to hold, like being present at her side, once on Earth!

Don't get me wrong, and contrary to what some might think, I do not hate neither had any problem with Chakotay's character. Yes, he has never been one of my favorites right from Caretaker (while I loved Janeway, Tuvok, Tom, Kes and Neelix , at first sight) but he had certain qualities that I appreciate, like some form of moral uprightness, (even ifsometimes, his fidelity to some moral principles and fights generated variable geometry), a quiet strength that could comfort (even if some of his reactions/decisions were taken under the influence of emotion, what suggested a dark side), his investment in certain causes and people he really cared (with the risk of mixes of too much attention or not enough and even, not at all). But between what I called the J/7's mess AND some unpleasant attitudes (Janeway had too!) in episodes of previous seasons, didn't make Chakotay's character grow in my liking (I think that RB's behavior on and out sets, has not improved things). That why, thinking to a possible J/C ending really bothered me, even if I understand the fandom (they are attractive, passionate, brillant, care for their people, etc...but I learnt that those who look alike, do not always end together, as frustrating as it sounds!

 

[Odonna]

In "Sacred Ground", Chakotay is doing everything he can to preventing Janeway from going to the tests and then trying to prevent her from walking into that energy field in order to save Kes's life. That show that he had a lot of feelings and concern for Janeway...
I agree on "Alter Ego" and the other episodes you mentioned.

Oh yes, you’re right. He also goes to Sickbay while she’s in the ordeal and says he’s going to stay there and monitor her vital signs with the Doctor in case she needs to be immediately beamed out. Anyone else would just let the doctor keep him informed.

Others we might make note of include “The Fight”. Most of the J/C scenes can be seen as co-workers and friends, but there’s that odd scene when Chakotay is on the biobed and Janeway walks up and I think she grabs his shoe (!), and then touches his knee, before getting to his arm or shoulder. Just a little odd even for her. A bit more familiar than a co-worker or friend would be, I think! :-D

And there’s another that comes to mind. I’m not sure of the episode. Might be “Hope and Fear”, the one on the alien slipstream ship. Chakotay is working at an unfamiliar console and Janeway walks up behind him. He turns suddenly to her and smiles, and she looks back with a little devilish grin. They both act like she just poked him somewhere... At least that’s how it comes across to me.

I have to mention “Workplace Pt2”, when Janeway realizes that they are both of the same species, and Chakotay says in that low, husky voice, “We’re more than that, we’re friends.” The hottest declaration of “friendship” I’ve ever heard! Holy mackerel! Talk about subtext…

Lastly, there is that question and line towards the end of “Shattered”. Even though I hate that scene, it does tell us something. You have a Pre-launch Janeway who after only a few hours having an adventure with Time-travel Chakotay is wondering “how close” the two of them will get, not thinking at all in that moment about protocols or even her engagement to poor Mark! It tells us at least that Janeway felt an attraction to Chakotay from pretty early on, I think. (much as Mulgrew has said she thought “I would do this for free” when first introduced to Beltran as a co-star) Of course in S1 there’s no indication of this attraction until later on.

It also just occurred to me that Chakotay’s line, “there were some barriers we didn’t cross”, also suggests that there might have been a few barriers that they in fact did cross… In any case, I’ll stop now.

 

[Iseult]

Janeway was at a real disadvantage in that she didn't have a sweet little thing waiting for her when she went home every few months. She had to be creative on the Holodeck. Shame really because she and Chakotay were well matched.

Whenever Chakotay and Janeway were in private together, all I could think was "NOW KISS!" But I ended up really liking her Irish holo-boyfriend, probably just because of the accent.

 

[Refuge]

Whenever Chakotay and Janeway were in private together, all I could think was "NOW KISS!" But I ended up really liking her Irish holo-boyfriend, probably just because of the accent.

Hey you're new! Welcome.

 

[Iseult]

Hey you're new! Welcome.

I've been lurking long enough, finally decided to join. Thanks!