Did anyone laugh when...

[Franklin]

It's more plausible that a science officer would even know what to do to fix the warp-drive rather than Kirk. Cinematically, having him just abandon the bridge at that moment for the turbolift would have looked weird. Instead you have the iconic moment of them turning to see Spock's empty chair (Spock having left when nobody was watching) and Spock rushing down to engineering. Kirk wasn't just going to leave without anyone noticing. Also, unless Trek II had immediately used the Genesis device to resurrect Kirk, by having him make the sacrifice would have pretty much ended the Trek franchise right then and there. While it's true that the cast and crew always produced each film as if it could be the last, there's no way they would have ended it with their hero dead. Losing Spock was as bold as they could be in the writing.

When you add it all up, all the plot elements in Wrath of Khan click together very nicely.

The only person who should know as much about how his starship runs than the captain is his chief engineer. I'd be surprised (and disappointed) if Spock knew more about how the Enterprise worked than Kirk did. He may know as much (which not all science officers would have to know), but not more. Kirk should've known what needed to be done, too. But he seemed paralyzed. He couldn't "corbomite" himself out of this one. Spock knew what he had to do before Kirk did, and he acted.

And of course they could've killed off Kirk. The next movie would've been about his resurrection, not Spock's.

By the way, they "lost Spock" not because it was the boldest thing they could write, but because Nimoy agreed to be in the movie only after Jack Sowards promised him a death scene. Spock wasn't even in Bennett's first treatment of the story because Bennett was sure Nimoy wouldn't do it. The original death scene was supposed to occur early in the story, but it kept getting pushed farther and farther into the story until Spock was basically in the entire movie.

Spock was Captain of the Enterprise in TWOK.

IMO it wasn't a real ship with 'real' missions, just a training ship all under Spock's command.
I know I know he gave command to Kirk. IMO Kirk was in command of the mission. The ship, the crew's compliment were Spock's responsibility. The tactics, the negotiations were Kirks.
Spock knew the trainees (to some extent) manning this Enterprise. Kirk didn't.
Spock wasn't science officer in TWOK and if Kirk as captain should know the ship better than anyone (except the chief engineer) so should Spock.

And since Spock worked on the ship and Kirk no longer did perhaps Spock would know the ship design better.
And perhaps it needed Vulcan endurance to fix the ship in TWOK. Scott looked like he had tried and failed.

When Spock turned command over to Kirk, the responsibility for everyone and everything on the ship and the ship itself transferred to Kirk, too. It's the nature of command. You can't split responsibility. It rests alone with the ship's captain. Spock went back to the science station on the bridge and filled his old roles as science officer and first officer.

I did say Spock certainly knew the ship as well as Kirk. Since it apparently became a training ship, it's unlikely it would've had any new equipment on it Kirk wouldn't be familiar with (unlike in TMP, where the refit with new technology meant Kirk had to catch up).

I'll grant you that Vulcan endurance may have given Spock an advantage in the situation, but that doesn't mean the thought of getting the mains back on line the way Spock did it couldn't have crossed Kirk's mind to at least try. Instead he stood there on the bridge and looked helpless.

 

[Melakon]

Spock seems to have more knowledge than Kirk about the complexities of matter/antimatter engines in "The Naked Time".

KIRK: We've got to risk a full-power start. The engines were shut off. No time to regenerate them. Do you hear me? We've got to risk a full-power start!
...
KIRK: . . .We need a formula. We've got to risk implosion!
...
KIRK: We've got to risk implosion. It's our only chance.

SPOCK: It's never been done.

KIRK: Don't tell me that again, Science Officer! It's a theory. It's possible. We may go up into the biggest ball of fire since the last sun in these parts exploded, but we've got to take that one in ten thousand chance!
...
SPOCK: Jim, there is an intermix formula.
...
SPOCK: It's never been tested. It's a theoretical relationship between time and antimatter.
...
SPOCK (to Scott): Stand by to intermix. I'll call the formulae in from the Bridge.

 

[Commishsleer]

The only person who should know as much about how his starship runs than the captain is his chief engineer. I'd be surprised (and disappointed) if Spock knew more about how the Enterprise worked than Kirk did. He may know as much (which not all science officers would have to know), but not more. Kirk should've known what needed to be done, too. But he seemed paralyzed. He couldn't "corbomite" himself out of this one. Spock knew what he had to do before Kirk did, and he acted.

And of course they could've killed off Kirk. The next movie would've been about his resurrection, not Spock's.

By the way, they "lost Spock" not because it was the boldest thing they could write, but because Nimoy agreed to be in the movie only after Jack Sowards promised him a death scene. Spock wasn't even in Bennett's first treatment of the story because Bennett was sure Nimoy wouldn't do it. The original death scene was supposed to occur early in the story, but it kept getting pushed farther and farther into the story until Spock was basically in the entire movie.

Spock was Captain of the Enterprise in TWOK.

IMO it wasn't a real ship with 'real' missions, just a training ship all under Spock's command.
I know I know he gave command to Kirk. IMO Kirk was in command of the mission. The ship, the crew's compliment were Spock's responsibility. The tactics, the negotiations were Kirks.
Spock knew the trainees (to some extent) manning this Enterprise. Kirk didn't.
Spock wasn't science officer in TWOK and if Kirk as captain should know the ship better than anyone (except the chief engineer) so should Spock.

And since Spock worked on the ship and Kirk no longer did perhaps Spock would know the ship design better.
And perhaps it needed Vulcan endurance to fix the ship in TWOK. Scott looked like he had tried and failed.

When Spock turned command over to Kirk, the responsibility for everyone and everything on the ship and the ship itself transferred to Kirk, too. It's the nature of command. You can't split responsibility. It rests alone with the ship's captain. Spock went back to the science station on the bridge and filled his old roles as science officer and first officer.

I did say Spock certainly knew the ship as well as Kirk. Since it apparently became a training ship, it's unlikely it would've had any new equipment on it Kirk wouldn't be familiar with (unlike in TMP, where the refit with new technology meant Kirk had to catch up).

I'll grant you that Vulcan endurance may have given Spock an advantage in the situation, but that doesn't mean the thought of getting the mains back on line the way Spock did it couldn't have crossed Kirk's mind to at least try. Instead he stood there on the bridge and looked helpless.

Whether Kirk would know the ship as well as/better than Spock would depend on whether Kirk went on another 5YM after TMP. For all we know this could be the 2nd time kirk has crewed a ship since TOS.

I think Spock would still feel responsible for the untrained crew in TWOK even though Kirk technically was in charge.

When Spock in the Science Station saw the Warp core was offline he probably wouldn't have known the exact situation in engineering. All he would have known that the core was offline, Scott was not answering and there were no other trained crew there.
The last thing he would have wanted was for Kirk to go down there. Not because Kirk wouldn't have known what to do but because Kirk was his BFF and if the situation was desperate Spock didn't want KIrk to die.

 

[Shat Happens]

I didn't like it. Actually I dint enjoy it because a woman in the theater was telling her companion how that scene was the same dialogue as the old movie and such.

gee, when people will learn to be quiet at movies?

But I dont like JJ SPock. Prime Spock was logical, stoic and above all, cool. That he felt emotions at all was a well-guarded secret. JJ Spock is having fits all the time.

Spock feeling emotions was a well-guarded secret? WTF. Rewatch "Amok Time". Everyone knew Spock had emotions. That's why McCoy was always trying to get a rise out of him, and why he would sometimes chide Spock for ignoring them.

Maybe I didnt chose the best words. I meant Prime Spock was concealing, or denying, but anyway he was (almost) always in control of his emotions and projecting a cultural image of Vulcans that they have no emotions at all (belived by a lot of in-universe people).

The only times I remenmber him losing it was:

1. infected by technowater naked time.

2. during PonFarr, but THAT was a unavoidable biological imbalance (And Pon Farr itself was so not-talked-about few humans ever knew about it at all)

3. Spores.

4. He thought he had killed Kirk (while recovering from pon farr). -- AND he promptly regained control (great scene)

As it can be seen, all abnormal circunstances (half of then he was under influence) that are the proverbial "exceptions that proves the rule".

Now JJ Spock is the completely opposite: he is always nervous. He trembles, he screams, he beats people since he was a kid. Granted it was under stress, but 1) he is angrier and dyscontrolled than everybody else enduring these same stressful situations and 2) Where's "The" Spock? I was told Spock would be in these movies.

 

[Melakon]

Maybe the three films aren't Kirk's story, but Spock's. Perhaps he turns into patiently annoyed Spock in the third film.

 

[Franklin]

I didn't like it. Actually I dint enjoy it because a woman in the theater was telling her companion how that scene was the same dialogue as the old movie and such.

gee, when people will learn to be quiet at movies?

But I dont like JJ SPock. Prime Spock was logical, stoic and above all, cool. That he felt emotions at all was a well-guarded secret. JJ Spock is having fits all the time.

Spock feeling emotions was a well-guarded secret? WTF. Rewatch "Amok Time". Everyone knew Spock had emotions. That's why McCoy was always trying to get a rise out of him, and why he would sometimes chide Spock for ignoring them.

Maybe I didnt chose the best words. I meant Prime Spock was concealing, or denying, but anyway he was (almost) always in control of his emotions and projecting a cultural image of Vulcans that they have no emotions at all (belived by a lot of in-universe people).

The only times I remenmber him losing it was:

1. infected by technowater naked time.

2. during PonFarr, but THAT was a unavoidable biological imbalance (And Pon Farr itself was so not-talked-about few humans ever knew about it at all)

3. Spores.

4. He thought he had killed Kirk (while recovering from pon farr). -- AND he promptly regained control (great scene)

As it can be seen, all abnormal circunstances (half of then he was under influence) that are the proverbial "exceptions that proves the rule".

Now JJ Spock is the completely opposite: he is always nervous. He trembles, he screams, he beats people since he was a kid. Granted it was under stress, but 1) he is angrier and dyscontrolled than everybody else enduring these same stressful situations and 2) Where's "The" Spock? I was told Spock would be in these movies.

A lot? Anyone on the Enterprise who read even a paragraph of Vulcan history on the library computer would know Vulcans have emotions. They would know Spock is not hiding them, but repressing them.

Besides what you mention above, Spock showed emotion in:

-- "The Cage", when he smiled at the flowers and, of course, all together now, "THE WOMEN!"
-- "Where No Man Has Gone, Before", he seems very content with himself for beating his captain in chess.
-- "Charlie X", he plays the Vulcan harp. Music is self-expression.
-- "All Our Yesterdays", when he reverts back to pre-Surak Vulcan behavior.
-- "City on the Edge of Forever", he claims himself a fool for not starting to record the history the Guardian is showing sooner. An exclamation like that is revealing emotion.
-- "The Savage Curtain", when he meets Surak.
-- "Unification, Part II", upon hearing Sarek has died.
-- "The Galileo Seven", he ignites the shuttle's fuel in an act of pure desperation.
-- "Assignment Earth", he is incredibly content petting a cat until he realizes it, then he almost acts embarrassed.
-- In many episodes, his little smirks and put downs of McCoy.
-- TMP, he weeps for V'Ger.
-- TVH, he calls his shipmates his friends.
-- TFF, he's obviously not all that happy with Sybok in general.
-- TUC, he gets very disgusted with Valeris.

There are probably others. But those are quite a few to be just exceptions.

 

[Mudd]

I'll admit I giggled with glee at how upset I expected the fanboise to get about it.

 

[Shat Happens]

Spock feeling emotions was a well-guarded secret? WTF. Rewatch "Amok Time". Everyone knew Spock had emotions. That's why McCoy was always trying to get a rise out of him, and why he would sometimes chide Spock for ignoring them.

Maybe I didnt chose the best words. I meant Prime Spock was concealing, or denying, but anyway he was (almost) always in control of his emotions and projecting a cultural image of Vulcans that they have no emotions at all (belived by a lot of in-universe people).

The only times I remenmber him losing it was:

1. infected by technowater naked time.

2. during PonFarr, but THAT was a unavoidable biological imbalance (And Pon Farr itself was so not-talked-about few humans ever knew about it at all)

3. Spores.

4. He thought he had killed Kirk (while recovering from pon farr). -- AND he promptly regained control (great scene)

As it can be seen, all abnormal circunstances (half of then he was under influence) that are the proverbial "exceptions that proves the rule".

Now JJ Spock is the completely opposite: he is always nervous. He trembles, he screams, he beats people since he was a kid. Granted it was under stress, but 1) he is angrier and dyscontrolled than everybody else enduring these same stressful situations and 2) Where's "The" Spock? I was told Spock would be in these movies.

A lot? Anyone on the Enterprise who read even a paragraph of Vulcan history on the library computer would know Vulcans have emotions. They would know Spock is not hiding them, but repressing them.

Besides what you mention above, Spock showed emotion in:

-- "The Cage", when he smiled at the flowers and, of course, all together now, "THE WOMEN!"
-- "Where No Man Has Gone, Before", he seems very content with himself for beating his captain in chess.
-- "Charlie X", he plays the Vulcan harp. Music is self-expression.
-- "All Our Yesterdays", when he reverts back to pre-Surak Vulcan behavior.
-- "City on the Edge of Forever", he claims himself a fool for not starting to record the history the Guardian is showing sooner. An exclamation like that is revealing emotion.
-- "The Savage Curtain", when he meets Surak.
-- "Unification, Part II", upon hearing Sarek has died.
-- "The Galileo Seven", he ignites the shuttle's fuel in an act of pure desperation.
-- "Assignment Earth", he is incredibly content petting a cat until he realizes it, then he almost acts embarrassed.
-- In many episodes, his little smirks and put downs of McCoy.
-- TMP, he weeps for V'Ger.
-- TVH, he calls his shipmates his friends.
-- TFF, he's obviously not all that happy with Sybok in general.
-- TUC, he gets very disgusted with Valeris.

There are probably others. But those are quite a few to be just exceptions.

I think some of those are debatable (and others I'd forget). But anyway, dont come close to JJSpock's tantrums and such.

When Prime Sarek died Prime Spock was "not happy". When JJ Amanda died JJ Spock completely lost it.

When Prime Kirk apparently died (by his hands), Prime Spock surrendered himself to the authorities. When JJ Kirk died JJ Spock went on a murderous rampage.

 

[Malaika]

speaking about that K/S scene my problem with it is -- aside from the fact that I don't buy them being that much friends at this point -- that they left out Bones who for all intents and purposes was Kirk's only real friend. It also made little sense to me that Scotty called Spock and not the doctor
Call me sensitive but they could keep the K/S moment and have Bones there too but it seems like they deliberately left Bones out of that scene because they recognized that if he were there it would somehow take away from the whole 'Kirk and Spock are best friends forever' moment, and I don't like it.

and I didn't like that Kirk thanked Spock only for saving his life giving all the credit to him since (and bless Bones for reminding him that) he would be dead now if it wasn't for McCoy and Uhura. Spock also knows that it wasn't all his merit and he almost ruined everything with his anger, actually.


I get that the Kirk/Spock friendship is the one thing the writers absolutely can't not have in the movies (they can't win about that, I know that) but they should also respect the new dynamics they have created and keep the integrity of these characters, otherwise some K/S moments will always inevitably feel pretentious and not earned to me.

 

[BillJ]

But the situations are completely different...

When Prime Sarek died Prime Spock was "not happy". When JJ Amanda died JJ Spock completely lost it.

Spock Prime is 160 years old and had reconciled to a degree with Sarek and being part human. Spock in Star Trek (2009) is in his thirties and just lost his mother and his homeworld and has Kirk sticking a proverbial fork in the wound and twisting it.

When Prime Kirk apparently died (by his hands), Prime Spock surrendered himself to the authorities. When JJ Kirk died JJ Spock went on a murderous rampage.

It doesn't even make sense to compare these two situations.

 

[BillJ]

-- "Where No Man Has Gone, Before", he seems very content with himself for beating his captain in chess.

Pretty sure Kirk beat Spock.

 

[Franklin]

-- "Where No Man Has Gone, Before", he seems very content with himself for beating his captain in chess.

Pretty sure Kirk beat Spock.

You're right, Kirk made a move Spock didn't anticipate and escaped his trap. Spock looked annoyed and surprised. Thinking more about it now, I don't remember anyone saying, "Checkmate," but yeah, Spock at least didn't win.

 

[BillJ]

-- "Where No Man Has Gone, Before", he seems very content with himself for beating his captain in chess.

Pretty sure Kirk beat Spock.

You're right, Kirk made a move Spock didn't anticipate and escaped his trap. Spock looked annoyed and surprised. Thinking more about it now, I don't remember anyone saying, "Checkmate," but yeah, Spock at least didn't win.

I think my impression that Kirk won came from the throat-cut gesture made in the turbolift when discussing the game.

 

[Malaika]

Maybe I didnt chose the best words. I meant Prime Spock was concealing, or denying, but anyway he was (almost) always in control of his emotions and projecting a cultural image of Vulcans that they have no emotions at all (belived by a lot of in-universe people).

The only times I remenmber him losing it was:

1. infected by technowater naked time.

2. during PonFarr, but THAT was a unavoidable biological imbalance (And Pon Farr itself was so not-talked-about few humans ever knew about it at all)

3. Spores.

4. He thought he had killed Kirk (while recovering from pon farr). -- AND he promptly regained control (great scene)

As it can be seen, all abnormal circunstances (half of then he was under influence) that are the proverbial "exceptions that proves the rule".

Now JJ Spock is the completely opposite: he is always nervous. He trembles, he screams, he beats people since he was a kid. Granted it was under stress, but 1) he is angrier and dyscontrolled than everybody else enduring these same stressful situations and 2) Where's "The" Spock? I was told Spock would be in these movies.

A lot? Anyone on the Enterprise who read even a paragraph of Vulcan history on the library computer would know Vulcans have emotions. They would know Spock is not hiding them, but repressing them.

Besides what you mention above, Spock showed emotion in:

-- "The Cage", when he smiled at the flowers and, of course, all together now, "THE WOMEN!"
-- "Where No Man Has Gone, Before", he seems very content with himself for beating his captain in chess.
-- "Charlie X", he plays the Vulcan harp. Music is self-expression.
-- "All Our Yesterdays", when he reverts back to pre-Surak Vulcan behavior.
-- "City on the Edge of Forever", he claims himself a fool for not starting to record the history the Guardian is showing sooner. An exclamation like that is revealing emotion.
-- "The Savage Curtain", when he meets Surak.
-- "Unification, Part II", upon hearing Sarek has died.
-- "The Galileo Seven", he ignites the shuttle's fuel in an act of pure desperation.
-- "Assignment Earth", he is incredibly content petting a cat until he realizes it, then he almost acts embarrassed.
-- In many episodes, his little smirks and put downs of McCoy.
-- TMP, he weeps for V'Ger.
-- TVH, he calls his shipmates his friends.
-- TFF, he's obviously not all that happy with Sybok in general.
-- TUC, he gets very disgusted with Valeris.

There are probably others. But those are quite a few to be just exceptions.

I think some of those are debatable (and others I'd forget). But anyway, dont come close to JJSpock's tantrums and such.

When Prime Sarek died Prime Spock was "not happy". When JJ Amanda died JJ Spock completely lost it.

When Prime Kirk apparently died (by his hands), Prime Spock surrendered himself to the authorities. When JJ Kirk died JJ Spock went on a murderous rampage.

I think a different life might have made this Spock different and accelerated his emotional development (Spock Prime reached this point too but it took him longer).
You can't, also, know what kind of experiences might have made Tos Spock the way he was, experiences that maybe this Spock hadn't lived. My impression is that he's a tad more defensive about his human side too, less ashamed about it
and honestly? It makes more sense to me. Even if a part of him had always tried to be the proper vulcan and please his father (not to mention that as a kid he grew up on vulcan and was subjected to those standards and expectations), he also is his mother's son and he undeniably loves Amanda. Denying his human side would mean denying his mother and being ashamed of her. Spock isn't ashamed of his mother.

I feel JJ&co did a good job trying to realistically show what it means for him to be a hybrid and someone who is torn between two worlds that also represent not only two sides of him but also his parents so he can't choose only one side because it's like choosing between his parents.
Now with the loss of his mother he might embrace vulcan more because it's a defense mechanics in order to deal with his grief, logic being the comfort zone.. at the same time I can see him wanting, even more than before, to honor his mother embracing his human side too.


I also think a lot of that is a matter of perspective too. In the reboot you get more focus on Spock as a protagonist .. he's not just the hero's sidekick anymore. In putting him more to the front you're allowed to see him beyond Kirk's own perception of him. You see more of him and what you see is a tad less biased than the perspective used by tos.
This is one of those things that remind me that tos was a result of its time.. Spock just was the cool alien, in being simply 'weird' he was considered interesting. Nowadays writers don't see things like that anymore-
I think the same would happen to the other characters too if they suddenly were made front and center. You'd know way more about Sulu or McCoy or Uhura and that 'more' might challenge a bit what you thought you knew about them when they were in the background.

 

[borgboy]

The younger Spock in The Cage was more emotional than he was by the time of TOS era. Reboot Spock is younger than Spock Prime was in TOS.
Also, Reboot Spock has a relationship with Uhura, who does encourage him to show emotions. He loses Amanda at a much younger age and Vulcan, so Reboot Spock is living a very different life than Spock Prime.

 

[fireproof78]

The younger Spock in The Cage was more emotional than he was by the time of TOS era. Reboot Spock is younger than Spock Prime was in TOS.
Also, Reboot Spock has a relationship with Uhura, who does encourage him to show emotions. He loses Amanda at a much younger age and Vulcan, so Reboot Spock is living a very different life than Spock Prime.

Absolutely. nuSpock is younger, and less mature in regards to his emotional control. I mean, even Saavik showed some minor hints of emotion and was not the pure logical control like Spock was in TWOK.

In addition, one of my favorite aspects of Sarek was the wisdom of his lines to Spock in Star Trek 2009. One that stood out to me, and was a major theme I picked up on in Spock's arc was this line:

"Emotions run deep within our race, in many way more deeply than with humans. Logic offers us a serenity human seldom experience: the control of feelings, so that they do not control you."

And that is the journey that Spock is on. He is trying to find that serenity that Sarek talked about, but he is still learning. There are still events that get under his skin, that push him to his limits.

Kirk's death, to me, was that final straw. He had lived with death for a year, trying to bury it, trying to deal with it, and then more death comes all at once.

As a quick aside, I think Nero and his crew in 09 represented the potential loss of control and emotional nature that Sarek is speaking about.

Spock is not emotionless, but in control. nuSpock is still learning that. That's why his "Khan" never bothered me.

 

[Spockkirk]

No I didn't find it amusing at all I felt for Spock.

 

[Hober Mallow]

Yes, there was snickering in my theater. Very awkward moment.

 

[xavier]

Yes, there was snickering in my theater. Very awkward moment.

I agree.it was awkward.

 

[Enterprise is Great]

No snickering and no laughing when I saw it. There may have been a few "Go get him Spock!"s uttered though.