Deanna Troi: What changes would you make
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I'm Back came in at 6:15 PM EDT GMT -4 H/BST -5 H 9 May 2009Will Complete above post when I get back
Marta Dubois: Ardra -- Devils Due
Was among the finalists for the roles of Natasha Yar and Deanna Troi in TNG
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Performers_approached_for_Star_Trek_roles#Marta_DuBois
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Marta_DuBois
Was among the finalists for the roles of Natasha Yar and Deanna Troi in TNG
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Performers_approached_for_Star_Trek_roles#Marta_DuBois
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Marta_DuBois
I think I probably would play up the differences between the Betazoids and the rest of the crew. I have the idea that mirror universe Betazeds are spys and generally feared, though I would think that even if empath powers aren't being out right abused, they'd probably make the average crewmember wonder about what a betazed was thinking.
Second thing is she needs to loose that accent. Both her mother and father have American accents, so why does she sound Russian?
I liked the backstory but I think it could have been fleashed out or used a bit more. Maybe somebody up for a promotion to the first officer, but Riker doesn't want to leave. Even if the guy is lying, how would everyone else see it -- as helping Riker or as telling what she senses?
I don't really like the idea of telekenesis just because you'd have to nerf it to the point that it's a parlor trick or remove this ability pretty often. Same with outright mindreading -- If she can read the baddie's thoughts word for word, you'll have to have psy shielding all the time so that she doesn't reveal the entire plot in the first 10 minutes.
Just sort of a random thought, but what about a Betazed who isn't very good at being psychic. Like he/she can sorta sense people's feelings but is prone to misinterpreting weaker emotions. That way you could have some reason to doubt that the other captain is really annoyed when it could be fear, or in pain when it's really anger. I think that might be fun. Keep 'em guessing.
Second thing is she needs to loose that accent. Both her mother and father have American accents, so why does she sound Russian?
I liked the backstory but I think it could have been fleashed out or used a bit more. Maybe somebody up for a promotion to the first officer, but Riker doesn't want to leave. Even if the guy is lying, how would everyone else see it -- as helping Riker or as telling what she senses?
I don't really like the idea of telekenesis just because you'd have to nerf it to the point that it's a parlor trick or remove this ability pretty often. Same with outright mindreading -- If she can read the baddie's thoughts word for word, you'll have to have psy shielding all the time so that she doesn't reveal the entire plot in the first 10 minutes.
Just sort of a random thought, but what about a Betazed who isn't very good at being psychic. Like he/she can sorta sense people's feelings but is prone to misinterpreting weaker emotions. That way you could have some reason to doubt that the other captain is really annoyed when it could be fear, or in pain when it's really anger. I think that might be fun. Keep 'em guessing.
I have started again to work on the episode idea I posted before I left on the cruise.
I agree. I think that they'd be excellent characterised as spys, or maybe a bit like the (not so) secret police in the Mirror Universe. It's a pity that we've never really got to see that. I think Troi would have been Picard's biggest asset or his biggest problem in the Mirror Universe, depending on whose side she's on.
I think it would have been nice to see how both of them coped. Betazoids would know that humans are lying or covering up the truth, or thinking one thing and saying another for the sake of soical convention, but social convention amongst humans is that you don't point it out, you go with what's being said. That might have been difficult for a Betazoid to keep up all day every day. Might have been nice to see some of that going on. For instance, Deanna might have commented that she enjoyed being with Data because with Data what you see is what you get.
USS_Triumphant:
1. In uniform from the start.
Yes. They were trying to play up her attractiveness and femininity by sticking her in ugly dresses. It didn’t work; she looked far more professional *and* attractive in uniform.
2. Actually attended the Starfleet Medical Academy and has a degree in Psych/Xenopsych.
Yes.
3. Better actress, and better looking actress, but not turned into "eye candy".
Marina Sirtis was fine.
4. No "Betazoid accent" that no other Betazoid actor is ever going to duplicate.
I’m indifferent. The Captain was a French man with an English accent whose relatives sounded American.
5. No backstory relationship with Riker.
Sure, why not?
6. Fully bisexual, handled in a mature way.
This would be nice. After 43 years, you’d think a series that considered itself progressive might have had one explicitly gay or bisexual character.
7. Fully Betazoid, and Betazoids would merely be Empaths.
That would work.
1. In uniform from the start.
Yes. They were trying to play up her attractiveness and femininity by sticking her in ugly dresses. It didn’t work; she looked far more professional *and* attractive in uniform.
2. Actually attended the Starfleet Medical Academy and has a degree in Psych/Xenopsych.
Yes.
3. Better actress, and better looking actress, but not turned into "eye candy".
Marina Sirtis was fine.
4. No "Betazoid accent" that no other Betazoid actor is ever going to duplicate.
I’m indifferent. The Captain was a French man with an English accent whose relatives sounded American.
5. No backstory relationship with Riker.
Sure, why not?
6. Fully bisexual, handled in a mature way.
This would be nice. After 43 years, you’d think a series that considered itself progressive might have had one explicitly gay or bisexual character.
7. Fully Betazoid, and Betazoids would merely be Empaths.
That would work.
(I thought of posting this in the Books forum, but I think it really belongs in this forum's Troi thread.)
I like Troi the way she is in terms of character, backstory, actress, etc. - I'm even quite fond of the accent! And I think the writers got her right often enough to give us just a taste of what they could have done with her, if the character hadn't had six co-stars to compete with; especially, I'd love to see them take her command training (shown in "Thine Own Self") a lot further, ideally with her winding up, perhaps in some far future setting, as a first officer or captain. (It's dramatic but nevertheless annoying that she merely winds up dead before her time in "All Good Things"!)
But, beyond doubt, the writers failed to give poor Deanna enough Cool Stuff to do in the course of the series. (Cool Stuff, by the way, is Picard defending his ship against a gang of terrorists with nothing but a laser welder and an antique crossbow in "Starship Mine," or Crusher shoving Picard through that momentary gap in the forcefield in "Attached," or Data stopping the giant electrical arc with his body in "Disaster"... Of course, Cool Stuff is also Troi blasting the bad guy's hat off in "A Fistful of Datas" and seizing command of the Romulan ship for a few crucial minutes in "Face of the Enemy" - you know, heroic stuff!)
On the other hand, I think you can't get a really complete picture of what Deanna Troi could have been without looking into some of the published Star Trek novels. With that in mind, here are some of my favorite portrayals of Troi in written form, to show what the TV writers could/should have done with the character:
In the way of command scenarios, we get to see her given temporary command of a the starship Marco Polo in Robert Greenberger's Doors into Chaos (there are even a good number of references to "Captain Troi"!), command a dangerous away team mission in the short story "'Twould Ring the Bells of Heaven" in The Sky's the Limit, and take over a covert mission from Elias Vaughn in The Battle of Betazed. My favorite, though, is the chapter in Jeffrey Lang's Immortal Coil, where she gets to command the Enterprise itself in battle - I just love the way she's written there, with courage and humor. In fact, this book contains one of my favorite lines ever, the mark that I like to aim for when I write action stories about her: "Deanna was beginning to feel the itch to slash at them with one good phaser strike, though she knew it might be the last thing she ever did." Lovely stuff!
Then there's Peter David, who not only writes her very well but deserves a mention for sheer volume; besides Imzadi, there's Triangle: Imzadi II (which I happen to prefer for taking place in the present day instead of mostly in the past, containing more regular TNG characters, and being, IMO, funnier and more exciting than its predecessor), as well as the older A Rock and a Hard Place (which contains some wonderful Troi scenes, such as the poker game, the bit where she tries to meditate her way to understanding the freaky Commander Stone, and her scene with Crusher) Q-in-Law (Lwaxana vs. Q), and Q-Squared (where she faces down Trelane, bravely defends an alternate-universe Picard from getting blasted with a phaser, and - my favorite bit - runs into herself from another universe, as well). The only problem with David's stuff, I think, is that she still winds up in a generally passive role, needing to be rescued with embarrassing frequency, when I'd rather see her doing the rescuing...
J.M. Dillard also does very well with Troi, especially in Possession, where she gets to be more or less the hero of the book (although, this being essentially a horror novel, even the heroes spend a lot of time running around like frightened rabbits!). She gets main-character-size roles in Rebecca Neason's Guises of the Mind and Keith Sharee's Gulliver's Figitives (the latter is an odd Trek story, to be sure, but I like that's it's Troi who single-handedly solves the mystery of the missing starship captain - plus she gets to take a death sentence with wonderful equanimity).
Deanna generally comes off very well in the new Titan novels (I especially enjoy her friendship with Tuvok); my favorite of these is Orion's Hounds by Christopher Bennett, which gives her quite a large role (from both a "sensing things" angle and an action-adventure angle!). The same author has a pitch-perfect rendition of Lieutenant Troi's first meeting with Captain Picard in The Buried Age, and gives her a starring role next to Data in "Friends with the Sparrows," also in The Sky's the Limit.
John Vornholt writes lots of cool stuff for Troi, as well - she gets to save the ship, no less, in Gemworld and Genesis Wave.
If you want to see a "scary political officer who fights with Picard" version of Troi, you need look no further than Diane Duane's Dark Mirror, one of the best TNG novels ever - it makes me wish she'd written more like it!
And I want to mention another brilliant short story, "I Am Klingon" by Ken Rand from Strange New Worlds II, wherein Deanna's agreement to help test Worf's new holodeck combat training program leads to weird and interesting consequences.
Now, if they'd made some of these stories into episodes ("I Am Klingon" would make a fine one, IMO), we might've gotten an all-around stronger character in Deanna.
But ::cough:: to answer your question... aside from giving her more of that Cool Stuff to do, I want to see her pursue command training; the one thing that really bugs me about the Titan novels is the opportunity they missed by not making her Riker's second-in-command. On the other hand, I'm glad they finally put through her marriage to Riker, though (this from someone who didn't know about it until a few months ago!), and it'll be nice in the future to see what she's like as a mother, but after years of hints that she'd make a good commanding officer, pursuit of that goal seems to have fizzled out even in the novels...
Also, whoever suggested a Captain Troi married to Admiral Picard scenario, I'm all for it. I like Riker well enough, but those two would make a fantastic couple.
Iruka
Worf: For the love of Kahless! Counselor Troi has seized control of the Romulan Warbird!
Picard: Oh, sure. And I suppose Saudi Arabia won the Olympic Ice Hockey gold?
--Five-Minute "Face of the Enemy," www.fiveminute.net
I like Troi the way she is in terms of character, backstory, actress, etc. - I'm even quite fond of the accent! And I think the writers got her right often enough to give us just a taste of what they could have done with her, if the character hadn't had six co-stars to compete with; especially, I'd love to see them take her command training (shown in "Thine Own Self") a lot further, ideally with her winding up, perhaps in some far future setting, as a first officer or captain. (It's dramatic but nevertheless annoying that she merely winds up dead before her time in "All Good Things"!)
But, beyond doubt, the writers failed to give poor Deanna enough Cool Stuff to do in the course of the series. (Cool Stuff, by the way, is Picard defending his ship against a gang of terrorists with nothing but a laser welder and an antique crossbow in "Starship Mine," or Crusher shoving Picard through that momentary gap in the forcefield in "Attached," or Data stopping the giant electrical arc with his body in "Disaster"... Of course, Cool Stuff is also Troi blasting the bad guy's hat off in "A Fistful of Datas" and seizing command of the Romulan ship for a few crucial minutes in "Face of the Enemy" - you know, heroic stuff!)
On the other hand, I think you can't get a really complete picture of what Deanna Troi could have been without looking into some of the published Star Trek novels. With that in mind, here are some of my favorite portrayals of Troi in written form, to show what the TV writers could/should have done with the character:
In the way of command scenarios, we get to see her given temporary command of a the starship Marco Polo in Robert Greenberger's Doors into Chaos (there are even a good number of references to "Captain Troi"!), command a dangerous away team mission in the short story "'Twould Ring the Bells of Heaven" in The Sky's the Limit, and take over a covert mission from Elias Vaughn in The Battle of Betazed. My favorite, though, is the chapter in Jeffrey Lang's Immortal Coil, where she gets to command the Enterprise itself in battle - I just love the way she's written there, with courage and humor. In fact, this book contains one of my favorite lines ever, the mark that I like to aim for when I write action stories about her: "Deanna was beginning to feel the itch to slash at them with one good phaser strike, though she knew it might be the last thing she ever did." Lovely stuff!
Then there's Peter David, who not only writes her very well but deserves a mention for sheer volume; besides Imzadi, there's Triangle: Imzadi II (which I happen to prefer for taking place in the present day instead of mostly in the past, containing more regular TNG characters, and being, IMO, funnier and more exciting than its predecessor), as well as the older A Rock and a Hard Place (which contains some wonderful Troi scenes, such as the poker game, the bit where she tries to meditate her way to understanding the freaky Commander Stone, and her scene with Crusher) Q-in-Law (Lwaxana vs. Q), and Q-Squared (where she faces down Trelane, bravely defends an alternate-universe Picard from getting blasted with a phaser, and - my favorite bit - runs into herself from another universe, as well). The only problem with David's stuff, I think, is that she still winds up in a generally passive role, needing to be rescued with embarrassing frequency, when I'd rather see her doing the rescuing...
J.M. Dillard also does very well with Troi, especially in Possession, where she gets to be more or less the hero of the book (although, this being essentially a horror novel, even the heroes spend a lot of time running around like frightened rabbits!). She gets main-character-size roles in Rebecca Neason's Guises of the Mind and Keith Sharee's Gulliver's Figitives (the latter is an odd Trek story, to be sure, but I like that's it's Troi who single-handedly solves the mystery of the missing starship captain - plus she gets to take a death sentence with wonderful equanimity).
Deanna generally comes off very well in the new Titan novels (I especially enjoy her friendship with Tuvok); my favorite of these is Orion's Hounds by Christopher Bennett, which gives her quite a large role (from both a "sensing things" angle and an action-adventure angle!). The same author has a pitch-perfect rendition of Lieutenant Troi's first meeting with Captain Picard in The Buried Age, and gives her a starring role next to Data in "Friends with the Sparrows," also in The Sky's the Limit.
John Vornholt writes lots of cool stuff for Troi, as well - she gets to save the ship, no less, in Gemworld and Genesis Wave.
If you want to see a "scary political officer who fights with Picard" version of Troi, you need look no further than Diane Duane's Dark Mirror, one of the best TNG novels ever - it makes me wish she'd written more like it!
And I want to mention another brilliant short story, "I Am Klingon" by Ken Rand from Strange New Worlds II, wherein Deanna's agreement to help test Worf's new holodeck combat training program leads to weird and interesting consequences.
Now, if they'd made some of these stories into episodes ("I Am Klingon" would make a fine one, IMO), we might've gotten an all-around stronger character in Deanna.
But ::cough:: to answer your question... aside from giving her more of that Cool Stuff to do, I want to see her pursue command training; the one thing that really bugs me about the Titan novels is the opportunity they missed by not making her Riker's second-in-command. On the other hand, I'm glad they finally put through her marriage to Riker, though (this from someone who didn't know about it until a few months ago!), and it'll be nice in the future to see what she's like as a mother, but after years of hints that she'd make a good commanding officer, pursuit of that goal seems to have fizzled out even in the novels...
Also, whoever suggested a Captain Troi married to Admiral Picard scenario, I'm all for it. I like Riker well enough, but those two would make a fantastic couple.
Iruka
Worf: For the love of Kahless! Counselor Troi has seized control of the Romulan Warbird!
Picard: Oh, sure. And I suppose Saudi Arabia won the Olympic Ice Hockey gold?
--Five-Minute "Face of the Enemy," www.fiveminute.net
Ok here goes,
The writers really screwed up Deanna Troi IIRC from TNG Companion
She was supposed to be more intelligent than most of the crew.
Intelligence Wise: Deanna + Data = Spock
As well the Deanna character was also supposed to be used to explore what it means to be human as well as Data. Deanna was supposed to be a Telepath but during the writing of Encounter At Farpoint she was downgraded to Empath she was supposed to be 1/4 human changed to 1/2.
Turned into Just Eye Candy.
One thing I'm GLAD they did change Betazoid Females were supposed to have 4 of them
where would the other 2
So what would you have done with Deanna Troi?
I would have made her a recurring character.
I made some small edits to what I posted before I left for the cruise, so I will repost the part I had done later.
Thanks for so many comments and feedback
Next 24 Hrs
Another post I will reply to
Wardrobe Business and Uniform AGREED
Troi Meets APOLLO 13 that would have been great
I always thought that was why they made her half-human instead of fully Betazoid. They contrast her empathic abilities with her mother's in the episode featuring the Antedeans. Lwaxana's advanced abilities do cast her as a deus ex machina at the end, when she blurts out -- "They're not going to the conference, they're assassins!"
Just speculation, but perhaps hiring a half-Betazoid would have been intentional -- a human crew would be more comfortable since she can't automatically read everyone's thoughts word for word. (As opposed to a Vulcan crew who would probably be rather opaque since their emotions are tightly controlled anyway.) Although, as with Lwaxana, even a full empath can be off-base when emotions or desire get in the way.
(Although this brings up another issue -- it does seem discriminatory to reject a qualified full empath just because it would be uncomfortable for the crew. Granted, the point is moot, but still.)
I do wish they had gone into Betazed's culture more thoroughly and explore the ramifications of their empathic abilities. They seem different from Vulcans in the sense that Betazoids have to conciously "turn off" the feelings of others (for their own sanity!) and use it when they feel a need to. Whereas Vulcans must proactively mind-meld with another person in order to to read their thoughts.
Anyhoo. That's just my 2 cents.
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1) I would have liked to see some of people's fears in dealing with telepathic person(s) and what they make of them
2) The accent Rick B DID NOT WANT two BIRT accents on the bridge & Majel was NOT given time to copy the the accent, if she had been cast as Troi's Mother from day one they could have worked on an accent together
3) Telekinetic Power I'm Thinking along the lines of self-defence and helping search & rescue
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