Deanna Troi: What changes would you make

[TS-1838-SWATH]

I think a regular uniform from the beginning is mandatory, and additionally I'd like her to be second officer and referred to as 'Commander' rather than 'Counselor.' I like the idea that she's there because of her training as a xenopsychologist and is an expert in first contact, but I'd also like to see her as representing the psychological health interests of the crew as part of her role as 2nd. This might allow some more interaction and conflicts with Crusher.

I think she should have also been the one handling communicatons though this might have required some shuffling/bridge redesign. Then again, perhaps she could have handled it from her small console, leaving tactical dedicated to only tactical.

I also quite like TS-1838-SWATH's suggestion of the Troi/Armus angle. I'm not sure if I (or TPTB) would have gone that far with it, but at least a temporary 'possession' and evil Troi followed by her having to live with what she'd done could have been cool.

Yes I know T.P.T.B. on T.N.G. would have gone with it has more of a DS9 feel to it if it was not Tasha's send off they might have done something more with Armus.

As to your first point 'Commander' rather than 'Counselor'
AGREEED or Lt. Commander and 2nd Officer Good Idea and at least if she was a partial Telepath it might come in handy when the U. Translator does not work.

 

[TS-1838-SWATH]

I like these ideas... Deanna was so underused.

The diplomatic/First Contact expert role seems to be the best angle for her, given that we are supposed to be Boldly Going it would help to have an expert on the subject on hand.

Telepathy, give her some but have it limited to humanoids with specific brain structures... mostly Human/Humanish but not all species. It's mostly useful when communicating with members of Humanity or very close cousins, rare would be the occasion where it can work with Serious Aliens.

Technical background... None. Just the diplomatic stuff. I'm tired of the jack-of-all-trade characters who seem to have deep insight into particle physics, nuclear engineering, and tactical operations even though they are the ship's janitor. Some cross-training would be needed but not to the extent shown on the show at times.

Having her be a fish-out-of-water in technical situations could provide some good stories, and show an avenue to grow/change her character as she struggles to qualify (for example) in flight control or basic Engineering.

I agree except she should know how to fly a shuttlecraft it would have saved us and her the silliness in ST:GEN crashes the ship.
Some tech knowledge (See Disaster) O'Brien HAD to spell it out for her CRINGE

 

[CaptainStoner]

Although I am heavily biased about Marina Sirtis, I think I'm being objective in saying that she was quite on par with Frakes, Dorn, Crosby, Burton, and McFadden. She was a good match. Like the Wesley character, I don't think it's quite fair (if understandable) to want to jettison the actor due to sub-par writing.

Because the Troi character, other than S1 Wesley, had the worst overall writing. No offense to the writers, I suspect they had tight constraints on Troi's powers and character development. I agree with those who feel the character should have had greater psychic ability.
One story element I think was missed with Troi was the conflict her powers could have caused among the crew, even her fellow bridge officers. Which brings me to another thing. This woman was a Lt. Commander if I remember right, from S1. Or was it Lt? We should have seen her in a standard uniform regularly, as well as the bunny suits. And we should have seen her operate a computer more often, use a tricorder, etc. "Ship's Counsellor" may have been her title, but she graduated from the same Academy, and had all of the basic skills any Starfleet officer has.
Sometimes, the writing would show other aspects of her job, especially its huge role in regard to the civilian population and children on the Ent-D. I think they should have portrayed her as being way, way more busy. Superindentent of schools, chief organizer of a lot of the civilian activities, chief conduit between the Command staff of the Ent-D and the civilians. On top of that, she's head of psychology for the Starfleet crew, does crew reviews with Comm. Riker (something we see too much), and works what was probably a part-time shift on the Bridge, as well as additional Bridge Duty whenever necessary.
In other words, a whole lot more than saying "I sense taint, Captain."

 

[Praetor]

As to your first point 'Commander' rather than 'Counselor'
AGREEED or Lt. Commander and 2nd Officer Good Idea and at least if she was a partial Telepath it might come in handy when the U. Translator does not work.

Indeed, and I should clarify I meant Commander as in LtCdr. I wasn't trying to give her a promotion.

One story element I think was missed with Troi was the conflict her powers could have caused among the crew, even her fellow bridge officers. Which brings me to another thing. This woman was a Lt. Commander if I remember right, from S1. Or was it Lt? We should have seen her in a standard uniform regularly, as well as the bunny suits. And we should have seen her operate a computer more often, use a tricorder, etc. "Ship's Counsellor" may have been her title, but she graduated from the same Academy, and had all of the basic skills any Starfleet officer has.
Sometimes, the writing would show other aspects of her job, especially its huge role in regard to the civilian population and children on the Ent-D. I think they should have portrayed her as being way, way more busy. Superindentent of schools, chief organizer of a lot of the civilian activities, chief conduit between the Command staff of the Ent-D and the civilians. On top of that, she's head of psychology for the Starfleet crew, does crew reviews with Comm. Riker (something we see too much), and works what was probably a part-time shift on the Bridge, as well as additional Bridge Duty whenever necessary.
In other words, a whole lot more than saying "I sense taint, Captain."

Very well said, Stoner. I was thinking in particular about the potential for the crew being 'worried' about her or intimidated by her. I think your other points are very good too and in some ways reiterate where they failed on their follow-through.

 

[TS-1838-SWATH]

I like these ideas... Deanna was so underused.

The diplomatic/First Contact expert role seems to be the best angle for her, given that we are supposed to be Boldly Going it would help to have an expert on the subject on hand.

Telepathy, give her some but have it limited to humanoids with specific brain structures... mostly Human/Humanish but not all species. It's mostly useful when communicating with members of Humanity or very close cousins, rare would be the occasion where it can work with Serious Aliens.

Technical background... None. Just the diplomatic stuff. I'm tired of the jack-of-all-trade characters who seem to have deep insight into particle physics, nuclear engineering, and tactical operations even though they are the ship's janitor. Some cross-training would be needed but not to the extent shown on the show at times.

Having her be a fish-out-of-water in technical situations could provide some good stories, and show an avenue to grow/change her character as she struggles to qualify (for example) in flight control or basic Engineering.

Or have Dad NOT Die and she follows in his footsteps and joins Startfleet in Oerations

 

[TS-1838-SWATH]

Another thought I had was make Deanna Starfleet Intelligence and not the ship's Counsellor (sp?). Full Telepath and Telekinetic then we could see her contribute to ship’s security and carry out standard interrogation and telepathic interrogation of those who are trying to harm the Enterprise

This would allow her to make major contributions to the plot and NOT sitting around on the bridge a lot of the time doing nothing.

 

[Vassa]

Get rid of her?

She was a "get out of jail free card". Too many times she was used to as the 'stamp of Approval' with her ability to 'magically know' the intentions of otherwise completely unknown Alien minds.

Although the idea she worked for Starfleet intelligence is kind of cool.

 

[TS-1838-SWATH]

[FONT=&quot]knowledge and abilities[/FONT]

So here are a few of my ideas:
Kept her a full Telepath
1/4 Human
More intelligent than most of the crew

Episoide Ideas: Spock's Brain A re-work of this for Deanna Troi her Brain gets implanted inside a being LIKE Tin Man

More Later

Why would she want to go back to being a Humanoid?
As a result of the merger she has gained knowledge and abilities

 

[TS-1838-SWATH]

More Later

 

[Myasishchev]

It would have been good if the writers had researched what counselors do and don't do. How they work and how they don't. It would have been nice to see Deanna do some real conseling rather than the "I feel pain" stuff.

Agreed. There was an article in the British SF mag Dreamwatch a few years back, written by a trained counsellor, examining the way the character was (mis) used. I can't remember it all, but a few things come to mind.
Ideally, a counsellor should be there for people, but would not go up to them and tell them they need her help.
There should be more than one counsellor to see to the needs of over a thousand people.
Twice in TNG we saw recently bereaved children left on their own.
The whole business about Deanna assisting with personnel reports would be counter productive. In order to operate as a counsellor Troi would have to be seen to maintain total confidentiality. Would you want to go to someone for help, knowing that they will be determining your future career prospects?
And of course the whole psychic empathy business would be very off putting to people with privacy issues. Not to mention potentially misleading. You can experience an event, feel one one emotion, but feel something very different when talking about it later. An empath will only pick up on what you feel when you recollect.
And then we get the episode 'Tin Man' where, in an appalling breech of professional ethics Troi blurts out in front of the bridge crew that Tam Elbrun was a former patient of hers. Quite apart from the fact that Counsellors and Psychiatrists have clients, not patients, this shows a total disregard for Elbrun's right to privacy. If Troi deemed it absolutely necessary for some one to know, she should have limited the information to those who truly needed it. And even then, she should have got Elbrun's express permission first.

In fairness, Betazoid ethics and human ethics are going to be strikingly different animals. Betazed's a telepathic society, devoid of secrets and devoid of subterfuge.

Some Betazoids probably see the peoples of the larger galaxy as the most disgusting liars. They're all no doubt somewhat bothered by it, even the (sigh) half-human ones.

I do echo the sentiment that other crew members might be bothered by or wary of this ability in return.

One way that occurs to me to make Troi more useful would be to have characters who are actually in some fashion screwed up. It's difficult for a counselor to be interesting when the biggest emotional problem a member of the crew faces is wanting to be left to masturbate in peace. Poor Barclay. They could've followed up BoBW for ages, though.

I don't know how much I'd have changed Troi herself, but the role of ship's counselor I'd have changed by keeping him or her off the bridge (unless they're actually standing a watch, which even then makes little sense and would probably only come up when they become for whatever reason the most senior officer on the ship). I know it's a conceit of television, that it's better for characters to be in the same room even when there's no logical reason for them to be, but screw that. If Picard needs to ask her something, that's what they have communicators for. If she can already sense deceit or terrible pain or whatever from thousands of kilometers away, I don't think she'll have any problem doing it from her office fifty meters down.

Oh, actually I do have one great idea about how to change Deanna Troi for the better: she's an orphan.

I agree except she should know how to fly a shuttlecraft it would have saved us and her the silliness in ST:GEN crashes the ship.

You're right. Nothing's easier than piloting a tritanium brick with no wings after it's been knocked into an atmosphere by the shock of several hundred thousand tons of combining matter and antimatter at effectively point-blank range...

 

[Praetor]

No pilot can outpilot the power of annoying writing.

 

[TS-1838-SWATH]

Oh, actually I do have one great idea about how to change Deanna Troi for the better: she's an orphan.

I agree except she should know how to fly a shuttlecraft it would have saved us and her the silliness in ST:GEN crashes the ship.

You're right. Nothing's easier than piloting a tritanium brick with no wings after it's been knocked into an atmosphere by the shock of several hundred thousand tons of combining matter and antimatter at effectively point-blank range...

I really like the orphan bit,
What I meant by being able to to pilot a shuttlecraft is that it would give her a reason to be on the bridge since she would then be able to work at conn some of the time and what happened in the movie would NOT come across as shoehorned in.

 

[Plecostomus]

Actually I remember she took some officer qualification courses late in the series... The fact that the ship DIDN'T spike edge first into the ground and flip ass-over is a credit to her and Data working together. No doubt she kept it level while Data used his High Speed Fingers to reroute commands to the working thrusters, coordinate the SIF and IDF systems and whatnot.

Remember, what happened was a borderline beyond-design-basis accident. Had they had gotten clear sooner they could have either impulse'd out of orbit or put the bulk of the planet between them and the explosion.

They were going for dramatic, but one would assume in that situation they'd detach first and evacuate the secondary hull via transporter, shuttles, and lifepods rahter than have the bulk of the population hang around in harms way.

 

[john titor]

It would have been good if the writers had researched what counselors do and don't do. How they work and how they don't. It would have been nice to see Deanna do some real conseling rather than the "I feel pain" stuff.

Agreed. There was an article in the British SF mag Dreamwatch a few years back, written by a trained counsellor, examining the way the character was (mis) used. I can't remember it all, but a few things come to mind.
Ideally, a counsellor should be there for people, but would not go up to them and tell them they need her help.
There should be more than one counsellor to see to the needs of over a thousand people.
Twice in TNG we saw recently bereaved children left on their own.
The whole business about Deanna assisting with personnel reports would be counter productive. In order to operate as a counsellor Troi would have to be seen to maintain total confidentiality. Would you want to go to someone for help, knowing that they will be determining your future career prospects?
And of course the whole psychic empathy business would be very off putting to people with privacy issues. Not to mention potentially misleading. You can experience an event, feel one one emotion, but feel something very different when talking about it later. An empath will only pick up on what you feel when you recollect.
And then we get the episode 'Tin Man' where, in an appalling breech of professional ethics Troi blurts out in front of the bridge crew that Tam Elbrun was a former patient of hers. Quite apart from the fact that Counsellors and Psychiatrists have clients, not patients, this shows a total disregard for Elbrun's right to privacy. If Troi deemed it absolutely necessary for some one to know, she should have limited the information to those who truly needed it. And even then, she should have got Elbrun's express permission first.

In fairness, Betazoid ethics and human ethics are going to be strikingly different animals. Betazed's a telepathic society, devoid of secrets and devoid of subterfuge.

Some Betazoids probably see the peoples of the larger galaxy as the most disgusting liars. They're all no doubt somewhat bothered by it, even the (sigh) half-human ones.

I do echo the sentiment that other crew members might be bothered by or wary of this ability in return.

One way that occurs to me to make Troi more useful would be to have characters who are actually in some fashion screwed up. It's difficult for a counselor to be interesting when the biggest emotional problem a member of the crew faces is wanting to be left to masturbate in peace. Poor Barclay. They could've followed up BoBW for ages, though.

I don't know how much I'd have changed Troi herself, but the role of ship's counselor I'd have changed by keeping him or her off the bridge (unless they're actually standing a watch, which even then makes little sense and would probably only come up when they become for whatever reason the most senior officer on the ship). I know it's a conceit of television, that it's better for characters to be in the same room even when there's no logical reason for them to be, but screw that. If Picard needs to ask her something, that's what they have communicators for. If she can already sense deceit or terrible pain or whatever from thousands of kilometers away, I don't think she'll have any problem doing it from her office fifty meters down.

Oh, actually I do have one great idea about how to change Deanna Troi for the better: she's an orphan.

I agree except she should know how to fly a shuttlecraft it would have saved us and her the silliness in ST:GEN crashes the ship.

You're right. Nothing's easier than piloting a tritanium brick with no wings after it's been knocked into an atmosphere by the shock of several hundred thousand tons of combining matter and antimatter at effectively point-blank range...

that is a good idea. Her character got a lot better around season 5. They should have started off like that with her and developed her into a complicated, possibly conflicted character, but not too obvious.

 

[USS Triumphant]

What I meant by being able to to pilot a shuttlecraft is that it would give her a reason to be on the bridge since she would then be able to work at conn some of the time and what happened in the movie would NOT come across as shoehorned in.

Or, at least if they had shown her successfully piloting something before, it wouldn't have seem like the crazy female driver crashing the ship the first time she flew it.

 

[Praetor]

They were going for dramatic, but one would assume in that situation they'd detach first and evacuate the secondary hull via transporter, shuttles, and lifepods rahter than have the bulk of the population hang around in harms way.

That always bugged me too. Why the hell did they need to wait so long when they had transporters?

 

[TS-1838-SWATH]

More on
Skin of Evil Version 2:

I still think Skin of Evil would work better as Season 3 or 4
That Deanna and Armus Merge as a result Deanna becomes an Evil Twin Version [E.T.V.] of herself and Armus becomes Good. E.T.V. Deanna is taken back to the ship where she starts to turn on the CREW and use her Telepathic powers on the crew to harm them, the Doctor and the Captian have to figue out if a mind transfer has taken place between Deanna & Armus, Armus is cntrolling Deanna, is Armus a shape-shifter and assumed Deanna's idenity after killing her or is it something else.

The crew has to trun to the Good Armus for help

2 Parter or 3 Parter

This has been running around in my head for a few weeks:
Skin of Evil Version 3 -- Season 3 or 4:

Another idea I had to rework this episode is at the being of a plot arc over several episodes. As I mentioned earlier in this topic Deanna is a FULL Telepath and Telekinetic. Actress instead of actor to play the part of Armus; the entity Armus is determined to escape her prison and decides to merge with Deanna in order to escape from this wasteland.

They become one and learn everything about each other, a few hours pass and then their new conciseness separates. Armus tries to hold on but it does not work, their conciseness switch forms. Deanna Troi’s conciseness merges with the liquid form of Armus and the conciseness of Armus enters the body of Deanna Troi. Armus comes out the worse for wear since she has become less advanced life form also as a side effect of this Armus is suffering almost total amnesia; Deanna has access to the SUM of their memories when they were merged. However Deanna’s new mind is in a state of disarray her mind is like a sea storm, she completely destroys the shuttlecraft as she exits it unable to yet properly control the strength/abilities of her new body with Armus trapped inside of her.

The away team lands on the planet and witness the fate of the shuttlecraft and this alien life form expelling a body from within it (her) about ten minutes later which of course they view as Deanna but is not. Tasha confronts the alien life form Deanna just as she is about to try and let the away team know that her mind is no longer in her body but in this alien life form, Tasha does not believe her and neither does the rest of the away team.
Deanna still somewhat disorientated by the transfer and agitated responds to Tasha’s confrontational attitude with a self preservation response combined with anger and attacks her. Deanna breaks every bone in her body and snaps her neck, Riker and Data open fire on Deanna with no visible effect the away team escapes with Armus.

Deanna reaches out with her new abilities to stop the Enterprise from leaving, as a result Picard open communication with what he thinks is an alien life form, and Dr. Crusher informs the Captain that Troi has severe amnesia; Deanna tries again to explain her predicament to Captain Picard but to no avail the Captain and the Doctor come to the conclusion that the Alien was trying to control Deanna and reached into her mind and that is why it has knowledge of her life and not because of a mind transfer. Deanna has failed again; she completely looses her temper and lashes out at the Enterprise. The ship takes moderate damage at first then serious damage (200 dead and injured combined as a result) Data devices a method to disorientate the alien, Data enacts his plan it works better than expected Alien Deanna is rendered unconscious.

The Enterprise limps away from the wasteland planet, Danna regains consciousness the depth of her situation sinks in she accidentally killed Tasha, attacked her shipmates who knows how many are dead or injured. Her body has been stolen someone else his living her life right now, she has been abandoned by her crew and she is stranded on a wasteland planet how will she escape and convince them of the truth. Will Starfleet send vessels to subdue her and contain her for transport to holding facility or some sort of status unit? Or worse yet sent to a laboratory to poked and examined for the rest of her days she thinks out loud “Am I even mortal anymore” “Is the transfer permanent !?”
Deanna becomes hysterical

The rest of the plot arc deals with Deanna learning to control her new form/body learning to become a shape-shifter so she can assume humanoid appearance to interact with people better, getting off her prison, dealing with Starfleet and tracking down the Enterprise and getting them to see the truth. Getting her life back and her body is the transfer permanent? Armus regaining her memory and impersonating Deanna Troi as well as getting of the ship at the best possible moment and trying to get Starfleet to place her old body in a kind of status unit.

A few variations on the above:

As mentioned earlier Deanna is a FULL Telepath and Telekinetic, actress instead of actor to play the part of Armus (for ALL of the following).

Armus and Deanna Troi merge as above and separate the away team rescues Deanna from the planet, an hour or so later Deanna starts to transform into a being like Armus with the sum experiences of herself and Armus her personality stays the same.
How will she interact with the crew and how will they react and treat Deanna Troi Version 2?
Or
Deanna transforms into a being like Armus with the sum experiences of herself and Armus her but personality inverts. (Evil Twin Version) How will she interact with the crew and how will they react and treat Deanna Troi Version 2?


Armus and Deanna Troi merge as in above quote BUT this time the merger is successful and permanent, the New Phoenix D-A Troi is 50%/50% blending of their personalities and memories as well as their abilities, in addition Phoenix D-A Troi learns how to shape-shift AMORAL orientation instead of MORAL or IMMORAL

Armus and Deanna Troi merge as in above quote BUT this time the merger is successful and permanent, the New Deanna Armus Troi is 50%/50% blending of their memories as well as their abilities in addition Deanna Armus Troi learns how to shape-shift. In regards to their new personality Deanna personality is dominant 75%/25% MORAL in orientation instead of AMORAL or IMMORAL

Armus and Deanna Troi merge as in above quote BUT this time the merger is successful and permanent, the New Armus Deanna Troi is 50%/50% blending of their memories as well as their abilities in addition Armus Deanna Troi learns how to shape-shift. In regards to their new personality Armus personality is dominant 75%/25% IMMORAL in orientation instead of AMORAL or MORAL

 

[TS-1838-SWATH]

What I meant by being able to to pilot a shuttlecraft is that it would give her a reason to be on the bridge since she would then be able to work at conn some of the time and what happened in the movie would NOT come across as shoehorned in.

Or, at least if they had shown her successfully piloting something before, it wouldn't have seem like the crazy female driver crashing the ship the first time she flew it.

Right ON

 

[CorporalClegg]

I'd settle for the better actress bit.

Or just one who could at least ... Oh, I don't know ... act?

 

[chardman]

Would have kept her as originally envisioned: At first a "Ship's Counselor " was a "Ship's Councilor". Not a psychologist, but a civilian rep of The Federation itself... a protocol officer of sorts. Like a Soviet era Political Officer, though significantly less insidious.

Not in uniform as she isn't in Starfleet, and can never be in Starfleet, as that might bias her decisions. Her sole allegiance is to the Federation.

The reason she's on the bridge, in a spot that implies that she's an equal to the first officer, is because she must observe all aspects of ship's operations, to make sure they fall within federation protocols. She's also there to represent the Federation government in all interactions with aliens, particularly in first contact situations.

Because ships of exploration regularly encounters unexpected situations, there are times when existing protocols aren't exactly adequate to the task at hand. In these situations, the job of Ship's Councilor is to reinterpret existing protocols to accommodate the new situation, or to help craft new protocols that are consistent with Federation's general philosophy, and to advise the ship's Captain accordingly.

I think that the reason the above concept never made it as far as the finished Writer's Bible was that it inherently tempted writers to use the Captain and the Councilor against one another in an adversarial way; to create an "Us vs Them" dynamic between Starfleet and The Federation. And that, unfortunately, just didn't jive with Roddenberry's bullshit Utopian view of "our main characters are too enlightened to have conflicts with one another".

Once they pared away all aspects of the character that could have led to such conflict, they were left with a character that served no real purpose, and most assuredly didn't warrant a command seat. So the main thing I'd do to change the way Troi was presented, would have been to scrap the prohibition on interpersonal conflict, so that such conflicts could occur. So that there could be an "Us and Them" diachotomy between the Starfleet and The Federation, so that Troi and Piccard could, from time to time, get up in one another's grill.