Concerns about the new ST

[eyeresist]

Also, they better not use this as a vehicle to push a radical agenda by making "LGBT" characters specifically just to say they have them.

I'm so glad Trek was never used to push an anti-racist agenda, by putting "token" non-whites on the bridge, and having one respond to a racial slur by saying she was beyond such things.

Oh, wait....

Well, they obviously made a mistake by addressing the concerns of their minority viewers.

 

[borgboy]

Yeah, basically Burgoyne is from a race of hermaphrodites.

 

[Jedman67]

Huh? Tucker was black?

I meant Travis...

Do you mean they're a hermaphrodite, or something different?

Yeah, basically Burgoyne is from a race of hermaphrodites.

Yes, Burgoyne. I didn't much care for those books. I much preferred the S.C.E. novels.

 

[TwoJakes]

race of hermaphrodites

This would be a interesting character in the new series, although the personal pronoun issue would have to be resovled.

 

[CorporalClegg]

This would be a interesting character in the new series, although the personal pronoun issue would have to be resovled.

It would simply be a matter of another crew member asking the person what he or she prefers.

That's how gender identity works.

 

[borgboy]

Burgoyne used s/he and other gender neutral pronouns.
I love New Frontier. I'm re-reading the middle of the series now.

 

[uniderth]

The gender neutral pronoun in English is it. There's nothing wrong with using that pronoun to refer to a person who prefers neither male nor female gender. What do people say when they ask a baby's sex? "Is it a boy or a girl?" Some people may say that it is dehumanizing. But it doesn't have to be if we use it correctly. Just as the word gay changed meanings, so too can it loose its dehumanizing connotation.

 

[Greg Cox]

Burgoyne used s/he and other gender neutral pronouns.
I love New Frontier. I'm re-reading the middle of the series now.

I used s/he for an alien species in my new book. They were a sentient, civilized species so referring to individuals as "it" just felt wrong, like referring to the Mother Horta as "it" instead of "she."

For better or for worse, "it" felt like a word you'd apply to an alien monster in a 1950s drive-in movie, which ran contrary to the STAR TREK approach of treating exotic aliens as people rather than creatures.

There was also the problem, functionally, that "it" is more commonly used for inanimate objects, which proved cumbersome and potentially confusing when I tried applying it to individuals as well. Nobody wants sentences like: "It handed it to it."

 

[borgboy]

The gender neutral pronoun in English is it. There's nothing wrong with using that pronoun to refer to a person who prefers neither male nor female gender. What do people say when they ask a baby's sex? "Is it a boy or a girl?" Some people may say that it is dehumanizing. But it doesn't have to be if we use it correctly. Just as the word gay changed meanings, so too can it loose its dehumanizing connotation.

I think pronouns like zhe work better than it. It just feels dehumanizing. I get the point of reclaiming it, but it could take generations to shed the negative tone, if it ever does.

 

[Greg Cox]

I think pronouns like zhe work better than it. It just feels dehumanizing. I get the point of reclaiming it, but it could take generations to shed the negative tone, if it ever does.

I considered "zhe," but there was already precedent for "s/he" in STAR TREK novels so I went with that. Besides Burgoyne, I seem to recall that Margaret Wander Bonnano used "s/he" in one of her novels as well, referring to the Talosians.

Made proofreading a little harder, though!

 

[JWPlatt]

"S/he" depends so heavily on being an English construct, which wouldn't likely work in any other language (are your books available in multiple languages? What do you do?), that while I use it in written English at times, it still feels artificial to use for an alien, especially if spoken. How about borrowing a real gender-neutral word from a different language than English such as the German neuter "das?" Would that be too difficult for the reader? Or make up something.

 

[Greg Cox]

"S/he" depends so heavily on being an English construct, which wouldn't likely work in any other language (are your books available in multiple languages? What do you do?), that while I use it in written English at times, it still feels artificial to use for an alien, especially if spoken. How about borrowing a real gender-neutral word from a different language than English such as the German neuter "das?" Would that be too difficult for the reader? Or make up something.

I admit I was stumped when the audio people asked me how to pronounce "s/he". Can't remember what we settled on.

As for translations, that's the translator's problem!

Seriously, I'm never directly involved with the translation process. They just show up by magic sometimes and sit proudly on my brag shelf, unread. (Although I'm still scratching my head over the French title of my ROSWELL novel.)

 

[JWPlatt]

Delegation is an awesome thing.

 

[angry apple panda]

S/he implies a dual male/female state, whereas a lot of intersex or genderqueer people prefer they-them or new pronouns, because they don't identify as either gender. I mean, maybe the species in the book was fine with that designation, but in real life it's not considered proper for most.

 

[Greg Cox]

S/he implies a dual male/female state, whereas a lot of intersex or genderqueer people prefer they-them or new pronouns, because they don't identify as either gender. I mean, maybe the species in the book was fine with that designation, but in real life it's not considered proper for most.

Good to know. Thanks.

In this case, we're talking about a race of sentient gastropods, who are hermaphroditic by nature, so I wasn't even thinking about real-life intersex or genderqueer humanoids. I just wanted to figure out the right pronouns for an exotic alien species that didn't fit the usual mammalian, vertebrate model . . ..

EDIT: A reviewer at Amazon just described the aliens in question as "sentient escargot," which amuses me to no end . . ..

 

[angry apple panda]

Good to know. Thanks.

In this case, we're talking about a race of sentient gastropods, who are hermaphroditic by nature, so I wasn't even thinking about real-life intersex or genderqueer humanoids. I just wanted to figure out the right pronouns for an exotic alien species that didn't fit the usual mammalian, vertebrate model . . ..

EDIT: A reviewer at Amazon just described the aliens in question as "sentient escargot," which amuses me to no end . . ..

No worries! Just thought I'd clarify for the record.

(P.S. Loved your Q Trilogy -- big fan.)

 

[Greg Cox]

No worries! Just thought I'd clarify for the record.

(P.S. Loved your Q Trilogy -- big fan.)

Thanks! And certainly I reviewed several websites on non-gendered pronouns while searching for the best way to handle the linguistic challenges.

 

[Tim Walker]

I can certainly approve of a 13 episode season, if it means no filler episodes. In this I prefer quality over quantity.

(Actually, I generally prefer quality over quantity).

And 13 episodes would allow a somewhat versatile format.

 

[Tim Walker]

This was actually discussed in another thread awhile back....

Call it tokenism, if you must. There was a story about the network forbidding a Chinese character in TOS. I was thinking that a Chinese woman could be a starship captain (Ming-Na Wen was a candidate). Sofia Helin was suggested as First Officer.

 

[Cake]

At what point does this show get its own forum? It's about as close as a show can get without releasing a title. It is a show now - not just wishful thinking.

Yes, this! Why isn't there a subforum in the "Star Trek TV Series" section? There should be already one under "Enterprise" and the threads about the new series should be moved from here to there.