Captain America: The Winter Soldier Discussion Thread - SPOILERS

[Aldo]

I could go on and on about how I enjoyed the movie but after 23 pages everything has been more or less covered. I do have two observations though:

Since we know the Senator that Gary Shandling played was a Hydra sympathizer, we can now retroactively give him motivation for trying to force Stark to turn over the Iron Man gear in Iron Man 2, since he's probably the first real threat to Hydra that's turned up since Cap went on ice.

My second observation I suppose is more of a question. Those cops that pursue Agent Fury near the beginning of the film. Were they Hydra agents working in secret with the Hydra forces inside SHIELD? The cars on board system did mention that there were no dispatches to that area, and the police did seem pretty relentless in their pursuit. Relentless enough that they'd fire blindly through a bus full of civilians just to get at Fury.

 

[Star Wolf]

I agree about the "Heil" we are lead to believe that for 70 years there have been sleeper agents secretively passing a Nazi salute among themselves in these great numbers. Okay hydra choose from psychological profiles but so many working for the good suddenly presented with the Nazi image and not backing out seems weird. It is a major strength the X-Man franchise has over the MCU at this point.

HYDRA really aren't that Nazi anymore.

I'm also not sure what X-Men has to do with it. Is it also one of the strengths Twilight has over it or is there something specific I'm missing?

I don't know they still use the salute from their parent organization and the preemptive solution seems a Nazi level atrocity. I guess specifically I should say X-Men First Class in having the strength to show Nazis as they were even if the Chief Nazi was a mutant

 

[DEWLine]

My second observation I suppose is more of a question. Those cops that pursue Agent Fury near the beginning of the film. Were they Hydra agents working in secret with the Hydra forces inside SHIELD? The cars on board system did mention that there were no dispatches to that area, and the police did seem pretty relentless in their pursuit. Relentless enough that they'd fire blindly through a bus full of civilians just to get at Fury.

Almost a certainty that those bogus police were HYDRA. Either that or a hit team hired through cut-outs.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I think that's a reasonable bit of speculation regarding Senator Stern's motivations.

The cops? Mercenaries or something, I'd guess.

 

[Aldo]

I think that's a reasonable bit of speculation regarding Senator Stern's motivations.

The cops? Mercenaries or something, I'd guess.

It wasn't a huge deal, since that was (IMO) one of the best action sequences of the film. Who knew two brothers who started out in tv would film such stunning action sequences

 

[Star Wolf]

My second observation I suppose is more of a question. Those cops that pursue Agent Fury near the beginning of the film. Were they Hydra agents working in secret with the Hydra forces inside SHIELD? The cars on board system did mention that there were no dispatches to that area, and the police did seem pretty relentless in their pursuit. Relentless enough that they'd fire blindly through a bus full of civilians just to get at Fury.

They were Hydra, now were they mercenaries hired directly, Centipede/Hydra or SHIELD/Hydra. I won't say DC Police has been as infiltrated as SHIELD. but the on board computer of Fury's car made it plain that the police department didn't have knowledge of an entire day watch of a division in a running gunfight.

 

[Aldo]

Could you guys please lay off the AoS spoilers? Or at least spoiler code them? Not everyone has seen the episode tonight, though I do intend to watch it soon (I watch it with my dad and he isn't home yet).

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I agree about the "Heil" we are lead to believe that for 70 years there have been sleeper agents secretively passing a Nazi salute among themselves in these great numbers. Okay hydra choose from psychological profiles but so many working for the good suddenly presented with the Nazi image and not backing out seems weird. It is a major strength the X-Man franchise has over the MCU at this point.

HYDRA really aren't that Nazi anymore.

I'm also not sure what X-Men has to do with it. Is it also one of the strengths Twilight has over it or is there something specific I'm missing?

I don't know they still use the salute from their parent organization and the preemptive solution seems a Nazi level atrocity. I guess specifically I should say X-Men First Class in having the strength to show Nazis as they were even if the Chief Nazi was a mutant

They're unquestioningly an evil organization, of course, but they aren't nationalist anymore. I don't recall much in the way of a salute, just a catchphrase that, likewise, is no longer nationalist.

I now see what you mean by being unafraid of showing Nazis as Nazis, but the Nazi connection to HYDRA hasn't been ignored and often gets referenced in nice subtle ways - Operation Paperclip being a good example. Imagine if that worked that way in the real world? Bringing in Nazi scientists in to work on the rocket program hopefully didn't turn NASA into a secret Nazi organization.

 

[Star Wolf]

It gets down to pop quiz when you hear someone throw out a "heil" what is your reaction to them?

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

My rankings!

Iron Man B+
The Incredible Hulk B+
Iron Man 2 C-
Thor A-
Captain America: The First Avenger B+
The Avengers A+
Iron Man 3 B+
Thor: The Dark World B-
Captain America: The Winter Soldier A+

My rankings:


Iron Man B+
The Incredible Hulk C+
Iron Man 2 C+
Thor B
Captain America: The First Avenger A
The Avengers B+
Iron Man 3 C+
Thor: The Dark World C
Captain America: The Winter Soldier A

 

[Alidar Jarok]

To get inside before I get pelted with hail?

I get your point, but Hail HYDRA isn't exactly the same thing as Sieg Heil. Certainly, I'd imagine recruiters are pretty careful to instill that thought before someone is told the truth of what they're joining.

 

[Sephiroth]

I have to wonder how that S.H.I.E.L.D. meeting with Stark went. "Okay, Mr. Stark, we want you to help design the new helicarriers, they will have enough firepower to kill millions around the world in mere hours. They will be controlled by an A.I. algorythm that will use everyone ever's shopping habits, social media posts, and banking data to determine any future threats to us, and kill them immediately with no trial or cause."

Stark: "But, that sounds horrible, I won't do it."

S.H.I.E.L.D.: *Waves a bottle of expensive bourbon in Stark's face*

Stark: "You'll have it by the end of the week."

 

[Sci]

I agree about the "Heil" we are lead to believe that for 70 years there have been sleeper agents secretively passing a Nazi salute among themselves in these great numbers. Okay hydra choose from psychological profiles but so many working for the good suddenly presented with the Nazi image and not backing out seems weird. It is a major strength the X-Man franchise has over the MCU at this point.

HYDRA really aren't that Nazi anymore.

I'm also not sure what X-Men has to do with it. Is it also one of the strengths Twilight has over it or is there something specific I'm missing?

I think this kind of goes back to what I was talking about earlier.

With HYDRA, we're being presented with an fictional organization for whom the narrative uses the iconography of fascism and naziism... but avoids the substance of those movements.

Fascism, for instance, tends to be intensely nationalist. It is an ideology essentially built around the idea that the "in-group" is superior, and must be kept "pure," that it must reign supreme militarily and that out-groups are an existential threat that must be eradicated lest they "contaminate" the in-group or dominate it. This line of thinking is of course most famous in the Nazis, but it appears over and over again in fascist movements' ideologies. A real fascist would never say, "Humanity cannot be trusted with freedom," because he wouldn't frame it in those terms; to him, freedom only belongs to the in-group, and can only be attained through the domination of out-groups and the unity of the in-group under the fascist leadership.

So, yeah, there's a certain level of implausibility to the idea that a fascist movement that grew out of the Nazi Party would not at its core be a deeply racist, nationalist organization. To me, there's something ludicrously unrealistic about a pseudo-Nazi organization that has in its membership persons of color, for instance. The idea that HYDRA are equal opportunity fascists hurts the verisimilitude of the film, because it renders them fairly motiveless villains who don't have a clear politics to set in opposition to Cap's.

I get your point, but Hail HYDRA isn't exactly the same thing as Sieg Heil.

No, but it's very, very close to "Heil Hitler." It's certainly meant to bring "Sieg Heil" and "Heil Hitler" to mind, I think.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Lets break this down to an allegory using relationships.

Ward is a husband with two wives, Hydra and S.H.I.E.L.D..

The problem is that S.H.I.E.L.D. is Hydra's child, and Hydra knows that Ward is banging it's daughter...

(Fuck me.)

Isn't this the plot to the Graduate?

Ward looks like a significantly taller Young Hoffman, don't you think?

(This second my mind finally figured out that Dustin played Lisa's substitute teacher 15 years ago.)

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

I have to wonder how that S.H.I.E.L.D. meeting with Stark went. "Okay, Mr. Stark, we want you to help design the new helicarriers, they will have enough firepower to kill millions around the world in mere hours. They will be controlled by an A.I. algorythm that will use everyone ever's shopping habits, social media posts, and banking data to determine any future threats to us, and kill them immediately with no trial or cause."

Stark: "But, that sounds horrible, I won't do it."

S.H.I.E.L.D.: *Waves a bottle of expensive bourbon in Stark's face*

Stark: "You'll have it by the end of the week."

No.
They just asked for the repulsor technology to replace the old deathtrap turbines.
The carriers we're not build by Stark Industries. They were just one contractor to deliver parts.

 

[Guy Gardener]

They only said that Stark developed the engines... But if there is a portal spewing out aliens by the million every minute into the country... Wouldn't it be advisable to have a gun platform that can be programmed to genetically only target non-human life, or even unrecognised life?

 

[Mr Light]

Speaking of the original Helicarrier... why wasn't it in the movie? It was still around at the end of Avengers and this takes place like three years later so obviously they had enough time to repair it. For the entire ending of the movie I kept waiting for it to show up and take out the other three Carriers and it never happened!

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Speaking of the original Helicarrier... why wasn't it in the movie? It was still around at the end of Avengers and this takes place like three years later so obviously they had enough time to repair it. For the entire ending of the movie I kept waiting for it to show up and take out the other three Carriers and it never happened!

What happened on board the helicarrier would be a story by itself during the SHIELD/Hydra clash.

Maybe AoS will cover it?

 

[Morpheus 02]

Speaking of the original Helicarrier... why wasn't it in the movie? It was still around at the end of Avengers and this takes place like three years later so obviously they had enough time to repair it. For the entire ending of the movie I kept waiting for it to show up and take out the other three Carriers and it never happened!

What happened on board the helicarrier would be a story by itself during the SHIELD/Hydra clash.

Maybe AoS will cover it?

or a bunch of one-shots??

 

[Captain Craig]

As I was scrolling through someone (Alidor maybe) said they didnt' recall Pierce or Sitwell saying Hail Hydra. Sitwell did not, not that I ever caught as well.

Pierce however says it faintly in his dying breath after Fury puts a few shots in his chest at films end.