Captain America: The Winter Soldier Discussion Thread - SPOILERS

[Kelthaz]

Well, I just got back from seeing it and I didn't much care for it. The film felt too much like a Jason Bourne film and that simply doesn't appeal to me. Well done film, but not my cup of tea.

However, I greatly enjoyed the setup for the rest of the Marvel universe. The fall of SHIELD and the revival of Hydra will make for some interesting plots in future movies and the TV series.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

In fact, this is a good place for me to say what I'd been thinking right after seeing TWS, which is that both CA films might be improved by being lengthened, primarily in order to strengthen the bond between Steve and Bucky.

Fair enough. Although I do think the second movie worked well through understatement. Sebastian Stan had both an extremely easy job and an extremely difficult one. He didn't have many lines, but he had to convey quite a bit through his eyes alone. I thought he did a good job with that, particularly in the scene where he met with Pierce. I could see the argument that this film would be strengthened by lengthening the first movie, but that's hardly fair to the first movie.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I could see the argument that this film would be strengthened by lengthening the first movie, but that's hardly fair to the first movie.

I agree. Keep in mind that I'm criticizing what I think are two excellent movies. There are a lot of themes at work in both films, and I wouldn't recommend upsetting the rest of it just to try to improve one aspect, though one that I think is pretty obviously weaker than the others. I'm pretty much in agreement with the observation that there might not be enough of the Winter Soldier himself, though I'm basing that just on the film(s) since I never read those issues.

 

[Captaindemotion]

This was an absolutely brilliant film. For my money, not just Marvel's best sequel but its best standalone superhero film and quite possibly just as good as The Avengers. A re-viewing, which I'm looking forward to, may well confirm that it's as good.

For me, it worked in every respect. Evans, once again, totally nailed the role, bringing sincerity, earnestness and charm without ever delving into corniness or sentimentality. Anthony Mackie brought charm and likeability to Falcon. Johansen, Smulders and, of course Jackson continue to inhabit their MCU characters. Redford convinced as one of the few people in the world capable of bossing SLJ around and brought presence and the right baggage that his 70s-thrillers were doubtless intended to evoke (not to mention a reminder that he could have played the title role 40 years ago).

While I love Arrested Development and enjoyed Welcome to Collingwood, I'd seen nothing that gave me any idea that the Russos would be so capable with tension, action and thrills. But they handled this film like pros, easily surpassing Joe Johnston's (who I regard as a very under-rated helmer) direction from the first movie. The combination of their direction, the taut script and actors at their A-game really made this at times redolent of a Bourne movie or feature length 24 outing but with superheroes! The hand to hand fight sequences were brilliantly handled, as were the more spectacular and fantastic elements.

Lovely little nods to the first film, the mention of Stephen Strange and a refusal to use the re-set button at the end really sealed the deal for me. It will be interesting to see the effects this has on the MCU and I look forward to seeing if how Cap tracks down Bucky.

There has been much discussion on the wisdom of putting CA3 up against the Man of Steel sequel/Superman v Batman film. Frankly, after seeing this baby, I think it's WB and DC who ought to be sweating and looking at their calendars. This was a much superior and far more entertaining film than MOS and I suspect that Avengers 2 will also boost the appeal of the next CA solo outing. The World's Finest will have to up their game!

 

[Sci]

I've been thinking a bit about this, and it occurs to me that my only real problem with Captain America: The Winter Soldier is essentially the same problem I had with The Dark Knight Rises two years ago: We're given a terrorist group that is clearly driven by a certain political ideology, yet the film only presents the external motifs of this ideology rather than giving us a deeper sense of what their actual ideology is and what motivates it. The League of Shadows seems to be an authoritarian leftist organization and Hydra seems to be an authoritarian rightist organization, but that's as much detail as we get. We get some buzzwords and catchphrases, but no real sense of their ideological drive.

Oh well.

But I just can't suspend my disbelief enough to accept that the United States government would ever let an agency as powerful as SHIELD operate without being firmly under its control.

How exactly do they have the ability to stop them?

Well, in essence, I don't buy the idea that the U.S. would have allowed them to be founded or grow without being firmly under U.S. control.

We're also talking about an organization founded before American military supremacy was clear. We aren't talking about something founded in the 1990s in a unipolar world. We're talking about something founded at the end of World War II before Churchill's Iron Curtain speech when the US was debating whether to stay involved in world affairs or retreat into isolationism. The US took the lead partly because it was in their interests to do so, but partly because they felt it forced upon them. The illustrative point is Greece. Typically, it would have been the UK to step in, but they were incapable of doing so and the US did it instead. I could see the US supporting an outside group founded by NATO members in their Cold War efforts without necessarily having to completely control that group.

I don't agree at all. In the immediate wake of World War II, the United States was the most militarily powerful nation on the planet. The Soviet Union was certainly also powerful and a potential threat, but the U.S. military was stronger. Add to this the developing Cold War tensions, and I find it implausible that the U.S. would have allowed an organization whose job description included finding and using incredibly powerful alien technology and energy weapons (looking for the Tesseract, Hydra energy weapons, etc.) to develop without being under American control.

Is anyone here an Algerian or has met lots of Algerians? Cause I feel that the casting of Georges St-Pierre is whitewashing, but I don't know any real Algerians to get their take on it.

I'm pretty sure there are Algerians of European/French descent, are there not?

 

[Enterprise1701]

Is anyone here an Algerian or has met lots of Algerians? Cause I feel that the casting of Georges St-Pierre is whitewashing, but I don't know any real Algerians to get their take on it.

I'm pretty sure there are Algerians of European/French descent, are there not?

I guess but from what I know of modern Middle East/Africa history, they don't number that many. I feel that the producers should have either cast a real Algerian as Batroc or say that Batroc was a French or a Canadian mercenary.

 

[JD]

I saw the movie yesterday, and I thought it was great. Loved the big Hydra reveal, which I was not expecting at all, and I though there take on Zola 2.0 was pretty good. I thought the fact that they had a recurring character like Sitwell turn out to be Hydra was a good move, that was a huge shock for me.
I thought the whole cast did an absoultely outstanding job. I think every character actually got at least one or two moments to shine, which can be can be rare movies like this that are really based around one character.
The action scenes, both this big effect heavy sequences like Falcon vs the jets, and the practical stuff like the fight scenes and the big car chase/battle between Fury and the Hydra agents were outstanding. If I had not known their history beforehand, I would have assumed the Russo Bros. had been doing these kinds of big action movies for years. I could see them having a nice career directing big budget action movies from here on out.
I know some people complained about The Winter Soldier, but I actually really liked him here. He might not have had a huge role, but I thought they did a pretty good job with the part he did play in the story. I really look forward to hopefully digging deeper into his story in future movies.
I'd give it a 5/5.

 

[bbjeg]

I enjoyed it and all but I couldn't give it the highest mark simply because I didn't see much that was new. Yeah, Captain America's suit was upgraded, the Helicarrier was updated, and the movie can stand next to Avengers while being a great successor to CA:TFA, but my Marvel Universe Scaling has Avengers at the top and CA:TFA at the bottom (it was a bit too campy for a World War movie) and I'd give CA:TWS an A- (Avengers - the Avengers).

 

[Jax]

I'm pretty sure there are Algerians of European/French descent, are there not?

Quite a few since it was a french colony in the not so far past. A lot of french footballers are of French Algerian descent.

 

[Shazam!]

They've always had and end credit ever since their first film, Iron Man 1.

Except for The Incredible Hulk.

Er...

 

[Trekker4747]

Maybe I missed something or mis-read something in movie, but I didn't get the impression Sitwell was "fully" a member of HYDRA and was more "playing along" or just sort of toeing the line out of personal interest/protection.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Maybe I missed something or mis-read something in movie, but I didn't get the impression Sitwell was "fully" a member of HYDRA and was more "playing along" or just sort of toeing the line out of personal interest/protection.

You've seen "Turn, Turn, Turn", yes?

In it...

Spoiler: AoS "Turn, Turn, Turn"

... right after Coulson figures out that Garrett is the Clairvoyant and the armed guards enter the room, Garrett says, "I know that Agent Sitwell was in charge of filling your ranks, so I know that at least some of you know what top do. Any time now." Then the HYDRA plants shoot the loyal SHIELD agents in the head. If Sitwell was the one that trained them to do that, then he was full HYDRA.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I've been thinking a bit about this, and it occurs to me that my only real problem with Captain America: The Winter Soldier is essentially the same problem I had with The Dark Knight Rises two years ago: We're given a terrorist group that is clearly driven by a certain political ideology, yet the film only presents the external motifs of this ideology rather than giving us a deeper sense of what their actual ideology is and what motivates it. The League of Shadows seems to be an authoritarian leftist organization and Hydra seems to be an authoritarian rightist organization, but that's as much detail as we get. We get some buzzwords and catchphrases, but no real sense of their ideological drive.

Well, HYDRA had to stay mostly silent throughout most of the movie, so it was hard to give them much of an opportunity. But you had two moments that helped. You had Zola's speech, which outlined the basic premise (and illustrated how they were transnational and not subordinate to Nazi ideology) and you had Pierce's speech about Pakistan and India. That was an example where one could believe your cause was truly a good cause even if it removed all human emotion from the equation (it was basically Ozymandius's idea). Of course, that was just Pierce, not necessarily the whole organization.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

Is anyone here an Algerian or has met lots of Algerians? Cause I feel that the casting of Georges St-Pierre is whitewashing, but I don't know any real Algerians to get their take on it.

I'm pretty sure there are Algerians of European/French descent, are there not?

Yes there are, and they're called Pied-Noirs.

 

[Cato]

I just saw it today. I gave it an excellent. I'm not much of a reviewer so I won't make a long post. I really liked the political intrigue and the conversations about liberty vs. security, it's one that I wish more more people would have. I sympathize with Cap. Who fought Nazis and Nazism is a clear threat. In post 9/11 it's hard to say who the bad guys are sometimes and sometimes we(the US) can be the bad guys. I'm glad SHIELD was destroyed, I'd like to see real life spy agencies dismantled. I was not expecting HYDRA to come back into play and I'm glad Bucky survived, I hope he will regain his memory and fight along Cap. This was a great movie and has been berry successful.

On another note, DC where are you? DC has got to be hating this, still waiting on the Justice League movie.

 

[Trekker4747]

You've seen "Turn, Turn, Turn", yes?

Haven't, I'm backed up on DVR watching.

 

[Tosk]

They've always had and end credit ever since their first film, Iron Man 1.

Except for The Incredible Hulk.

Er...

I assume the "Er..." is supposed to be a reference to the Ross/Stark scene? It is the last scene of the film proper, before the credits.

 

[LaxScrutiny]

Is anyone here an Algerian or has met lots of Algerians? Cause I feel that the casting of Georges St-Pierre is whitewashing, but I don't know any real Algerians to get their take on it.

I'm pretty sure there are Algerians of European/French descent, are there not?

I guess but from what I know of modern Middle East/Africa history, they don't number that many. I feel that the producers should have either cast a real Algerian as Batroc or say that Batroc was a French or a Canadian mercenary.

Algiers was a French colony for about a hundred years. Arabic is the official language, but French is still the main language of schools and government, and most of the country is bilingual.

 

[Roshi]

Is anyone here an Algerian or has met lots of Algerians? Cause I feel that the casting of Georges St-Pierre is whitewashing, but I don't know any real Algerians to get their take on it.

There's that French poster whose parents are Algerian-born. Mutenroshi, I think...

He looks pretty white to me...


On a more serious note though, St-Pierre has a very strong Québécois accent, contrary to the other pirates.

 

[BeatleJWOL]

Well, I just got back from seeing it and I didn't much care for it. The film felt too much like a Jason Bourne film and that simply doesn't appeal to me. Well done film, but not my cup of tea.

Y'know, TWS is structured a bit like the last Bourne film, the one with Hawkeye in it...odd.

Plus there's the shakeycam; only downside to the movie, really. It's possible to show people moving fast without putting the camera guy in an inflatable bouncy castle, last I checked...