Captain America: The Winter Soldier Discussion Thread - SPOILERS

[The Old Mixer]

I also really liked his cameo in the "Spider-Man" movie from a couple years ago, as a school librarian unknowingly organizing books while listening to music as Spidey and Lizard destroy the room behind him.

That was my favorite Stan cameo ever.

 

[Mr Light]

I just read the Winter Soldier comic. They used very very little of it in the movie. This story was more about the Winter Soldier than the movie, and of course nothing about SHIELD infiltration or Zola or Hydra or anything. The villain is the Red Skull.

Speaking of... if, in the movie, Hydra made the Winter Soldier... why does he have a Soviet Red Star on his shoulder?

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Presumably, HYDRA worked for SHIELD, the KGB, and any other group that could be pitted against each other to ferment chaos. Certainly, having him seem more likely to be Communist would probably be beneficial to HYDRA. Think SPECTRE in From Russia with Love.

BTW, new internet meme FTW

 

[Guy Gardener]

Did the NAZI party ideologically hate Communism beyond Hitler hating Stalin personally?

Surely the structure of an already paranoid iron fisted regime in control of Russia (1917/8-1989.) would be resistant to assimilation from evil foreign powers?

What was Peirce's nationality?

Plenty of ProNazis in America, of "American" decent, but if Zola was really in charge, brainwashing everyone, was he still trapped in that 1970s piece of shit?

(Was he trapped?)

Even if, Zola converted everyone, that could still mean that the converted might have liked being converted so well that their loyalty to Hydra was greater than their loyalty to Zola, or maybe Zola didn't bother instructing any one to be fanatically loyal to him personally?

Would it be awesome in Avengers II, if after they get stomped that Zola saves the day?

 

[Gryffindorian]

Kill zem, kill zem all.

 

[Sci]

Did the NAZI party ideologically hate Communism beyond Hitler hating Stalin personally?

Yes, it did, although HYDRA's ideology seems to diverge from the Nazis'. They seem less concerned with racial hegemony than with order and security.

Surely the structure of an already paranoid iron fisted regime in control of Russia (1917/8-1989.) would be resistant to assimilation from evil foreign powers?

Fascism and Communism were indeed ideologically opposed to one-another -- but on the other hand, HYDRA's particular brand of fascism might have been able to win adherents from Soviet officials more fixated on national security than Leninist ideology.

What was Peirce's nationality?

Seemed pretty American to me. I suppose he might have been Canadian if he were only a member of the World Security Council and not himself the U.S. Secretary of Defense, as I speculated earlier in the thread.

Plenty of ProNazis in America, of "American" decent, but if Zola was really in charge, brainwashing everyone, was he still trapped in that 1970s piece of shit?

I don't think he was in charge, or brainwashing anyone. I think the point is that HYDRA was able to win adherents from people who are naturally predisposed to authoritarianism and fascism.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

However, Natasha's reference to working for the KGB is anachronistic; the KGB was dissolved in late 1991, when Natasha would have been about seven years old. Either the KGB (and possibly the Soviet Union itself?) still exists in the Marvel Cinematic Universe of 2014, or Natasha actually worked for the FSB, the KGB's post-Soviet successor. (Which, admittedly, the FSB is made up largely of the same people operating in the same buildings, doing lots of the same things -- they might as well be the same organization, name and government notwithstanding.)

I wonder if Romanoff isn't as young as people think she is. Hard to say for sure, but it seems weird to have Black Widow completely removed from the Cold War.

Three possibilities:

1. Natasha is significantly older than she looks.

2. In the MCU, the Soviet Union never fell.

3. In the MCU, the Soviet Union fell, but the Russian Federation soon became just as antagonistic as they had been and the U.S. and Russia fell into another cold war-type relationship. (Maybe Vladimir Putin took power soon after the USSR fell?)

SHIELD appears to be an international agency. It seems more akin to NATO in that it's western-based and was founded by an American man and a British woman, but it seems broader and works closely with many nations. The fact that it is governed by the World Security Council, which includes representatives from India, show it isn't exclusively American. In Avengers, the US military was actually going to help the movie with production until they found out about the Council and decided that they didn't want to support an organization that suborns American interests to an international body, even in a fictional universe.

In Agents of SHIELD, I think it's clearer. They have bases all over the world. They've got at least two non-Americans on the team. They asserted jurisdiction in Italy and South America. At the same time, not every country is a member. It seems Russia is not, based on the fact that the team had to sneak into South Ossetia from Georgia. Also, Malta certainly is not. I suspect there are little countries all over the world who piggyback off of both the security SHIELD provides and the ability to not be a member and charge a premium to shelter rich people. Finally, I get the impression from this movie that Pakistan is not, although that was more ambiguous.

ETA: Here is the quote from Seeds (courtesy spoiler tags for those who don't want to be spoiled on an episode that aired three months ago):

Spoiler: Agents of SHIELD

Quinn asks, “Who is this?”
Coulson says, “Agent Phil Coulson with S.H.I.E.L.D. We’ve never actually met, but I’m familiar with your work. All of it.”
Quinn says, “So this is a getting to know you call?”
Coulson says, “No, just a message,that the first time your aircraft drifts over any country allied with S.H.I.E.L.D., we will shoot you out of the sky.”
Quinn says, “So this is a courtesy call. Well, thank you, Agent Coulson. And I have a message for you. The clairvoyant told me to say hello.”

I considered that possibility, but I find myself skeptical that SHIELD is a truly international agency for three reasons:

1. I just don't buy the idea that the U.S. government would willingly give that much power to an agency they don't control.

2. The use of the term "Homeland" in their full name strongly implies that it is a single-state agency -- and that it's American, since we've become fond of that term post-9/11 (after we realized "Fatherland" was already taken).

3. In the closing scenes of CA:TWS, Natasha is giving testimony to what is clearly a United States Congressional committee, and the Members of Congress question her about how "this country" can defend itself now that SHIELD's secrets have been leaked.

So my hypothesis is that SHIELD is a U.S. agency that the government allows allied countries to co-run with it through the World Security Council, but which is ultimately controlled by the U.S. President. (When it's not being taken over by HYDRA, of course.) I would further hypothesize that those allied countries have agreed by treaty to grant SHIELD jurisdiction over metahuman-related crises.

It's pretty clear that SHIELD is like U.N.C.L.E.; run by the UN, and supported by the UN's main members.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I don't understand why people are drawn to the assumption that people like Senator Stern (what a name) had to be brainwashed to join HYDRA. Not only does it make perfect sense that amoral politicians could find something like HYDRA personally appealing, but also the possibility of heartfelt hidden allegiances is far more interesting and undoubtedly relevant to the real world.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Scull and Bones?

If he was approached in college, power, money and probably sex, in exchange for working towards world peace?

No brainer really.

 

[Sci]

So my hypothesis is that SHIELD is a U.S. agency that the government allows allied countries to co-run with it through the World Security Council, but which is ultimately controlled by the U.S. President. (When it's not being taken over by HYDRA, of course.) I would further hypothesize that those allied countries have agreed by treaty to grant SHIELD jurisdiction over metahuman-related crises.

It's pretty clear that SHIELD is like U.N.C.L.E.; run by the UN, and supported by the UN's main members.

All I can say is this:

I can suspend disbelief enough to buy that a magical serum can turn an emaciated short man into a beefy sex god with preternatural powers.

I can suspend disbelief enough to accept that gamma rays can turn a scientist into a large green rage monster.

I can suspend disbelief enough to accept that the Norse gods were actually aliens who enjoy medieval-looking super technology.

I can suspend disbelief enough to accept aliens and superheroes and wormholes and spaceships and magical aircraft carriers that float in the sky in spite of the laws of physics.

But I just can't suspend my disbelief enough to accept that the United States government would ever let an agency as powerful as SHIELD operate without being firmly under its control.

 

[Guy Gardener]

How old is S.H.I.E.L.D.?

How much older than Iron Man I is it?

5 minutes, or 20 years?

I can see S.H.I.E.L.D. 20 years ago being completely American, and then once space aliens became a real threat, a lot of foreign spook factories were lashed together and lashed to S.H.I.E.L.D. and the multinational "Frankensteins monster" that was left in it's place then had the same powers as S.H.I.E.L.D. and every other overseas beurea that was jigsawed into S.H.I.E.L.D.... In fact it's just a question of luck that this post alien menance peace keeping force is even called S.H.I.E.L.D.

The real question is: What is the World Security Council and who sits on it, and how are members sellected?

http://marvel.wikia.com/World_Security_Council_(Earth-199999)

 

[Gryffindorian]

I don't understand why people are drawn to the assumption that people like Senator Stern (what a name) had to be brainwashed to join HYDRA. Not only does it make perfect sense that amoral politicians could find something like HYDRA personally appealing, but also the possibility of heartfelt hidden allegiances is far more interesting and undoubtedly relevant to the real world.

Ja. Ze power und vealth provided by HYDRA shouldt be enough to tempt any politician to pledge zer allegiance to ze group.

 

[Turtletrekker]

So my hypothesis is that SHIELD is a U.S. agency that the government allows allied countries to co-run with it through the World Security Council, but which is ultimately controlled by the U.S. President. (When it's not being taken over by HYDRA, of course.) I would further hypothesize that those allied countries have agreed by treaty to grant SHIELD jurisdiction over metahuman-related crises.

It's pretty clear that SHIELD is like U.N.C.L.E.; run by the UN, and supported by the UN's main members.

All I can say is this:

I can suspend disbelief enough to buy that a magical serum can turn an emaciated short man into a beefy sex god with preternatural powers.

I can suspend disbelief enough to accept that gamma rays can turn a scientist into a large green rage monster.

I can suspend disbelief enough to accept that the Norse gods were actually aliens who enjoy medieval-looking super technology.

I can suspend disbelief enough to accept aliens and superheroes and wormholes and spaceships and magical aircraft carriers that float in the sky in spite of the laws of physics.

But I just can't suspend my disbelief enough to accept that the United States government would ever let an agency as powerful as SHIELD operate without being firmly under its control.

Some things are just COMPLETELY unbelievable.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I wouldn't say "powerful" but the sheer scope of Interpol is pretty broad, and they seem to be unattached to any obvious US Imperialism.

 

[Sci]

I wouldn't say "powerful" but the sheer scope of Interpol is pretty broad, and they seem to be unattached to any obvious US Imperialism.

Interpol doesn't operate a flying aircraft carrier more powerful than any military vessel operated by any military service on the planet. While simultaneously conducting research into how to harness the single most advanced potential energy source in history. While simultaneously developing energy weapons more powerful than any firearm on the planet. While simultaneously spying on every single computer system in the world. While simultaneously maintaining their own stock of actively-deployed nuclear weapons.

SHIELD is basically its own military service branch, not a coordinating body for police departments. Hence why I say the U.S. government would never allow it to operate without making sure it's firmly under their thumb.

 

[Guy Gardener]

For what Interpol is allowed to to do, which is nothing earth shattering, which I underlined already, they are allowed to go almost any where, with out much fuss to do it.

It's the international co-operation that is relevant... Why am I thinking of the proton accelerators from Ghost busters being deeply illegal and no regulatory consideration getting onto that?

 

[The Old Mixer]

I thought that the use of antiquated computer tech in Zola's nerve center was highly effective, as it underscored the chronological scope of Hydra's plan.

But I just can't suspend my disbelief enough to accept that the United States government would ever let an agency as powerful as SHIELD operate without being firmly under its control.

It might if all of the things you'd listed above existed...powerful rogue entities that governments can't control...and there were Hydra conspirators in the U.S. government to boot.

How old is S.H.I.E.L.D.?

How much older than Iron Man I is it?

5 minutes, or 20 years?

I know that you know the answer to that...you've seen the One Shot.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I wonder if Romanoff isn't as young as people think she is. Hard to say for sure, but it seems weird to have Black Widow completely removed from the Cold War.

Three possibilities:

1. Natasha is significantly older than she looks.

2. In the MCU, the Soviet Union never fell.

3. In the MCU, the Soviet Union fell, but the Russian Federation soon became just as antagonistic as they had been and the U.S. and Russia fell into another cold war-type relationship. (Maybe Vladimir Putin took power soon after the USSR fell?)

SHIELD appears to be an international agency. It seems more akin to NATO in that it's western-based and was founded by an American man and a British woman, but it seems broader and works closely with many nations. The fact that it is governed by the World Security Council, which includes representatives from India, show it isn't exclusively American. In Avengers, the US military was actually going to help the movie with production until they found out about the Council and decided that they didn't want to support an organization that suborns American interests to an international body, even in a fictional universe.

In Agents of SHIELD, I think it's clearer. They have bases all over the world. They've got at least two non-Americans on the team. They asserted jurisdiction in Italy and South America. At the same time, not every country is a member. It seems Russia is not, based on the fact that the team had to sneak into South Ossetia from Georgia. Also, Malta certainly is not. I suspect there are little countries all over the world who piggyback off of both the security SHIELD provides and the ability to not be a member and charge a premium to shelter rich people. Finally, I get the impression from this movie that Pakistan is not, although that was more ambiguous.

ETA: Here is the quote from Seeds (courtesy spoiler tags for those who don't want to be spoiled on an episode that aired three months ago):

I considered that possibility, but I find myself skeptical that SHIELD is a truly international agency for three reasons:

1. I just don't buy the idea that the U.S. government would willingly give that much power to an agency they don't control.

2. The use of the term "Homeland" in their full name strongly implies that it is a single-state agency -- and that it's American, since we've become fond of that term post-9/11 (after we realized "Fatherland" was already taken).

3. In the closing scenes of CA:TWS, Natasha is giving testimony to what is clearly a United States Congressional committee, and the Members of Congress question her about how "this country" can defend itself now that SHIELD's secrets have been leaked.

So my hypothesis is that SHIELD is a U.S. agency that the government allows allied countries to co-run with it through the World Security Council, but which is ultimately controlled by the U.S. President. (When it's not being taken over by HYDRA, of course.) I would further hypothesize that those allied countries have agreed by treaty to grant SHIELD jurisdiction over metahuman-related crises.

It's pretty clear that SHIELD is like U.N.C.L.E.; run by the UN, and supported by the UN's main members.

Actually, I don't think they're UN either. They definitely seem closer to NATO, but more extra-national (i.e., they exist independently of the constituent nations). But it's also clear not every nation is a part of it.

But I just can't suspend my disbelief enough to accept that the United States government would ever let an agency as powerful as SHIELD operate without being firmly under its control.

How exactly do they have the ability to stop them? It seems there's a bit of a "if you can't beat them join them" mentality that makes sense. The United States is undoubtedly an important part of SHIELD, but there's no evidence they control it and the evidence suggests that they do not - at least not exclusively. It was founded by an American and a Brit, so that at least helps restore their faith.

We're also talking about an organization founded before American military supremacy was clear. We aren't talking about something founded in the 1990s in a unipolar world. We're talking about something founded at the end of World War II before Churchill's Iron Curtain speech when the US was debating whether to stay involved in world affairs or retreat into isolationism. The US took the lead partly because it was in their interests to do so, but partly because they felt it forced upon them. The illustrative point is Greece. Typically, it would have been the UK to step in, but they were incapable of doing so and the US did it instead. I could see the US supporting an outside group founded by NATO members in their Cold War efforts without necessarily having to completely control that group. After all, SHIELD didn't start as something massively powerful, it grew into that as threats from the unknown or unbelievable became more real.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Pepper Potts was Tony's secretary back when Stark Industries was in the weapons business. Tony's dad been been one of SHIELD's founders, and neither Tony (IIRC) nor Pepper had heard of SHIELD. SHIELD must have kept a really low profile, up until that time.

 

[lurok]

That was damned enjoyable.