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Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS*****

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

I am not in the real life military and therefore I am curious now: If that is true, is it really the case that people have to follow orders, even if the superior officer is obviously misusing his authority, as in bullying? I know that officers can (and from the legal standpoint, should) disobey illegal orders but what about the grey area in between? Also, if such an officer disobeys an order and at the end it is obvious that this officer was right to do so, would he still be punished? (Similar to what Picard experienced, who was threatened with a court martial?)

Having said that, Starfleet is not the real life military. It is a mix of various things. The most obvious difference is, of course, that Starfleet vessels often have civilians, sometimes including children, on board.

On the one hand we have cases as I described. On other occasions officers are told that they should also use their own judgement. I remember that Data was praised in an episode for disobeying an order and doing the right thing.

Starfleet is supposed to be about an ideal. I find it very disappointing that this hard line military thinking is more widespread and supported by the top leadership.

I often can`t shake the feeling that this attitude is more about showing subordinates who is boss than genuinely do what is actually required. Admirals don`t want to be seen as being wrong, therefore captains who defy them have to be put in place.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Baerbel Haddrell said:
I am not in the real life military and therefore I am curious now: If that is true, is it really the case that people have to follow orders, even if the superior officer is obviously misusing his authority, as in bullying? I know that officers can (and from the legal standpoint, should) disobey illegal orders but what about the grey area in between? Also, if such an officer disobeys an order and at the end it is obvious that this officer was right to do so, would he still be punished? (Similar to what Picard experienced, who was threatened with a court martial?)

Having said that, Starfleet is not the real life military. It is a mix of various things. The most obvious difference is, of course, that Starfleet vessels often have civilians, sometimes including children, on board.

On the one hand we have cases as I described. On other occasions officers are told that they should also use their own judgement. I remember that Data was praised in an episode for disobeying an order and doing the right thing.

Starfleet is supposed to be about an ideal. I find it very disappointing that this hard line military thinking is more widespread and supported by the top leadership.

I often can`t shake the feeling that this attitude is more about showing subordinates who is boss than genuinely do what is actually required. Admirals don`t want to be seen as being wrong, therefore captains who defy them have to be put in place.

That's easy to say. But if you don't have the kind of discipline where, under any but the most extraordinary of circumstances (such as an illegal order), officers and crew will any and all orders given, then you lose one of the most important psychological barriers that keeps people from freezing up, or, worse, fleeing, during a combat situation. Those kinds of things take intense psychological training to keep people under control and thinking logically -- after all, their lives can be in imminent danger for days, even weeks, at a time.

And it's not like the military, even today, lacks for diversity of thought and opinion. There are people from all walks of life with all sorts of different political philosophies, for instance. But at the end of the day, it is the duty of the military to defend innocent people in combat -- and if soldiers won't obey any legal command they are given, then they can be a danger to themselves and to their fellow soldiers.

To say nothing of the fact that if soldiers can start picking and choosing which orders they will and will not follow, where does it stop? With junior officers? With senior leadership? Can the military leadership decide to disobey an order it recieves from the civilian government? Can the senior leadership decide to disobey the concept of civilian control of the military and overthrow the government?
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

I understand what you are saying and there are no easy answers. I certainly would agree that it is not desirable to have a big argument in the middle of a fire fight. I also agree that people should not disobey orders lightly.

On the other hand, superior officers have a responsibility to be fair and to look after their personnel. Leadership is not just about barking orders. What I was saying is, there should also be an obligation to learn good leadership skills in the Academy and beyond. Bullying should also be unacceptable in the Academy and in the workplace and people should not be punished because they happen to be right. A good leader is respected and people follow him because they want to, not because of rank.

To me, threatening a captain who disobeyed orders and saved lots of lives in the process with a court martial is absolutely incredible and I don`t see any justification for it whatsoever.

I must admit, even if I would be an able bodied person, I wouldn`t be suitable for the real life military. I react very badly when I am shouted at and bullied around.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Compared to being shot at, being shouted at is pretty easy to deal with. Getting used to the latter (eventually) makes it at least a bit easier to handle the former.

Though I agree that it's definitely not a lifestyle for everyone. :)
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

^Marco really shouldn't be shooting at you guys. Should take that up with the labor board or something ;)
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

I have just finished Before Dishonor. Holy. Crap. Now I'm confused. Did Janeway really die? Or is Lady Q taking her into the Q continuum? Who is that Stephens guy? He cracked me up!!! Oh, he wasn't part of Calhouns crew after all? Of the 3 new characters, the only one I really like is T'Lana. I can't say anymore, too tired. Next book to read...Collison Course. :eek:
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Baerbel Haddrell said:
A good leader is respected and people follow him because they want to, not because of rank.

Tell that to the military. In my experience for every CO like Picard there are 10 Jellico's/Admiral Cains. When I was touring bases with a Senator recently I had one (can't specify which because of a nondisclosure agreement of what I visited) say "It's my way or Dishonorable Discharge way."

You learn to live with it.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

ToddCam said:

In general, I thought the book was fun, and a lot better than many of his recent NF stories have been, but it still had many major problems. First off,Starfleet is incredibly incompetent, Jellico seems to be in charge (WHY???), and Worf acted as if nothing had changed for him since Star Trek: Generations.

One thing Peter David does really well is action, and I was excited throughout the entire book.

My biggest problem was with the characterizations of the new characters. As stated before, why would Leybenzon or Kadohata mutiny? Kadohata has been with Picard since "Encounter at Farpoint," so why would she think her judgment is better than his? And Leybenzon! "I hate authority figures, so I think admirals are always right!" That makes no sense at all. The fact that they were attracted to each other just came out of left field, given that Kadohata seemed to be in a happy marriage, Leybenzon disliked officers, and I don't recall the characters interacting at all in Q & A. Now she was calling him "Zel." Wha? And since when does her husband live on Enterprise?

T'Lana seemed to be a drunken Soleta. Completely irrational, and stubborn beyond any reason. When she mentally commented on the "obviousness" of the Leybenzon/Kadohata lust, I thought, "Yes, why don't they admit their attraction... like you and Worf! Hypocrite!"

I notice KRAD has not mentioned how he feels about PAD changing the characters he created. I know I would be pissed. I wonder how Christopher will reconcile the two very divergent takes on Kadohata and Leybenzon in Greater than the Sum.

Oh, I forgot to mention, that despite his disdain for VGR, he actually wrote a very good Janeway and Seven. I was very surprised. Her death was very shocking to me.

6/10.

If Janeway dies in the novels I'll never buy another one again.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Even novels which would have nothing to do with Janeway anyway? Titan? Vanguard? Etc.?
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

D Man said:
Even novels which would have nothing to do with Janeway anyway? Titan? Vanguard? Etc.?

Yep. Because Janeway is just as much a part of Trek and it seems the editors are more concerned with bringing back Trip Tucker than they are letting Voyager fans at least keep THEIR captain.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Here's a hypothetical scenario for you:

If some trilogy in the future killed off Picard, Sisko, O'Brien, Archer, and Porthos, then I would be quite miffed and would probably get rid of those books. However, I would still judge future projects on their merits instead of rejecting the book line as a whole. If the story was strong enough, I might even accept the deaths of those beloved characters as necessary.

I assume that Janeway will come back in some way, shape, or form, but if she doesn't, then she got a better end than Yar and Jadzia.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Madea said:
D Man said:
Even novels which would have nothing to do with Janeway anyway? Titan? Vanguard? Etc.?

Yep. Because Janeway is just as much a part of Trek and it seems the editors are more concerned with bringing back Trip Tucker than they are letting Voyager fans at least keep THEIR captain.
Wow, that's pretty harsh.
Just out of curiosity did you watch Trek before VGR?
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

I just finished the book and I have to say it excellent. Killing off Janeway really suprised me, but then bringing her back (not to life) in some other form suprised me just as much if not more. Hopefully this will be addressed in the next book.

As for the characters, T'Lanas character did seem way to stubborn and set in the Vulcan way even going as far as to argue with Spock! I don't see the problem with Worf other than he didn't have much to say in the whole book, but he is Klingon so oh well.

Overall the book was great, PAD is awesome, and I can't wait for the next one to come out.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

T'Lana seemed like the unenlightened Vulcans from ENT than a 24th century Vulcan.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

T'Lana does not seem to understand the chain of command, even after her years in Starfleet. She seems like a Vulcan who has had not much contact with outworlders, which seems illogical for a counselor with years of experience.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

JD said:
Madea said:
D Man said:
Even novels which would have nothing to do with Janeway anyway? Titan? Vanguard? Etc.?

Yep. Because Janeway is just as much a part of Trek and it seems the editors are more concerned with bringing back Trip Tucker than they are letting Voyager fans at least keep THEIR captain.
Wow, that's pretty harsh.
Just out of curiosity did you watch Trek before VGR?
Yes. All my life. But Kate Mulgrew and Janeway showed us a woman could be powerful and feminine at the same time. And as far as getting over it I won't. Kathryn was NOT a character like Yar and Jadzia. She was the CAPTAIN.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Might want to read the book before you make your decision. :)
 
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