Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS*****

[ClayinCA]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Kathryn was NOT a character like Yar and Jadzia. She was the CAPTAIN.

I'm not even sure what this means. Rachel Garrett was the captain of the Enterprise-C, and look what happened to her. Christopher Pike was the captain of the original Enterprise, and it didn't help him very much. If your argument to that is that both of those are essentially one-episode characters and not beloved to the audience, then I might point out that by that criteria, Janeway does compare to Tasha Yar and Jadzia Dax (or even James T. Kirk, who is both a beloved character and a captain).

In any case, Dayton is right - you should really read the book, and Janeway's usage in it, before you decide.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Nevertheless, it is an understandable reaction. I know I would react strongly if Calhoun dies for good.

Not that I would stop reading Star Trek books in general, but there is a 99 % probability that I won`t read any future NF should that ever happen.

I am not a Janeway fan, although there are a few episodes especially in the earlier seasons when I really liked her. Me personally, I have no problems with it.

On the other hand, I think it was not a wise decision to kill her off, as it seems to be at present. Of course Q could just snap his fingers or Janeway becomes a kind of Star Trek Obi Wan, but after all this talk about how resurrection stories cheapen death, this would be a way out I wouldn`t want to see.

Also in books, my opinion still is, leave the main characters alive. You can torment them mentally, physically, put them in all kinds of dangers - no problem - but I think it is important to allow fans of an established character (speaking of TV, at least) to meet him or her in future books. And I mean, not just in flashbacks, MU stories, time warps and other twists.

 

[J47]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Who has said that she dies for good? God knows it wouldn't be the first time a character was visibly killed off and then brought back to life (see: The Wrath of Khan). The sequel to the book is called Destiny for chrissake, and its a trilogy on top of it. Does ANYONE believe they're actually going to leave her dead?

 

[donners22]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

I wouldn't mind having a character permanently killed off for once, and I suppose if anyone was going to kill off Janeway, it would be PAD! All these stories of people being killed in mirror universes, magically revived, reset buttons...they get a little tired after a while. With the increased freedom for writers in the "novelverse", why not make a significant impact?

Killing a beloved character is a perfectly valid storytelling device and, if used properly, can be very powerful. I've not read the book yet, so I don't know if this fits into that category, but the potential is there.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

J47 said:
The sequel to the book is called Destiny for chrissake...

Actually, the immediate sequel to Before Dishonor is my own Greater Than the Sum, which leads into Destiny.

 

[wizkid]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Christopher said:

J47 said:
The sequel to the book is called Destiny for chrissake...

Actually, the immediate sequel to Before Dishonor is my own Greater Than the Sum, which leads into Destiny.

Are we expecting that book in July of 2008??? That is a long time away...

 

[Christopher]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

No, GTTS is in August. I will have a novel coming out in July, though -- my installment in Myriad Universes: Infinity's Prism.

 

[J47]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Christopher said:

J47 said:
The sequel to the book is called Destiny for chrissake...

Actually, the immediate sequel to Before Dishonor is my own Greater Than the Sum, which leads into Destiny.

I had a feeling my timeline was wrong. Oh my god, they're probably going to leave Janeway dead for a whole book!

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

J47 said:
Who has said that she dies for good? God knows it wouldn't be the first time a character was visibly killed off and then brought back to life (see: The Wrath of Khan). The sequel to the book is called Destiny for chrissake, and its a trilogy on top of it. Does ANYONE believe they're actually going to leave her dead?

This is why I said as it seems to be at the moment. Yes, of course I didn`t miss all the "Destiny" hints and know about the trilogy. I am just saying, IF Janeway is not as dead as she seems to be, I can only hope that her revival will make sense and won`t look cheap.

Still, the best way to avoid unrealistic and annoying resurrection stories is not to kill off such characters in the first place. As I keep saying, there is a LOT of room between being dead for good and being alive and well.

 

[Warp Coil]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

I have no problem with beloved characters getting killed off so long as their deaths are well-written, integral to the story and don't come out of left field. Sure, if Janeway was sitting there drinking a cup of tea and was killed by a stray phaser bolt, it would be lame and pointless. So long as the story is good and the death is done well, I think it can be quite dramatic. Better than most Trek, where you know the main characters will never die unless the actors are going to leave the series (Denise Crosby, Terry Farrell). Eventually I grew tired of seeing characters placed in peril when there was zero chance of anything bad happening to them.

Of course, equally bad is the concept of resurrection. If you're going to be so bold as to kill someone off, don't magically un-do it. It defeats the purpose and cheapens their death. So if Janeway's dead, she should just stay that way.

 

[ClayinCA]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

J47 said:
it wouldn't be the first time a character was visibly killed off and then brought back to life (see: The Wrath of Khan).

Spoiler: end of the book

Indeed, PAD has Janeway herself make this very point.

 

[Ronald Held]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

I will speculate that Janeway will stay "dead" until Q has a reason to resurrect her.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

I could draw the conclusion from this statement that in order for “anything bad happening” to a character, he/she must be being killed. I think what you meant to say is that you got tired of seeing characters placed in peril and being sure that they won`t die anyway.

I understand but I definitely don`t share that opinion. Maybe it depends on how strong people feel for and with fictional characters. I can form very strong emotional bonds with certain characters and although I agree that stories in which a beloved character dies can be very well written and powerful, it is not something I enjoy reading – and this is why I read Star Trek books, for my entertainment. I can appreciate a story like “Wildfire”, which is indeed excellent, but this is not something I want to encounter in the near future again.

For example, if PAD (or someone else) would want to write a story in which Calhoun saves the whole universe by an incredibly heroic, touching, selfless and powerful self sacrifice – I don`t care. I don`t want to read it, except maybe in a MU or What If? story that doesn`t touch the main book continuity. There is a handful of characters I don`t want to see dying under any circumstances.

I guess we will see if Janeway is Not.Quite.Dead.

 

[Section 31]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

ClayinCA wrote: I'm not even sure what this means. Rachel Garrett was the captain of the Enterprise-C, and look what happened to her. Christopher Pike was the captain of the original Enterprise, and it didn't help him very much. If your argument to that is that both of those are essentially one-episode characters and not beloved to the audience, then I might point out that by that criteria, Janeway does compare to Tasha Yar and Jadzia Dax (or even James T. Kirk, who is both a beloved character and a captain).

It seemed fairly obvious to me. As you pointed out, Garrett and Pike were guest characters seen during one episode (or one two-part episode). Janeway was the captain of Voyager during the show's entire seven season run. To have her killed off in a TNG book that had little to do with Voyager besides the involvement of Seven of Nine and the Borg was a questionable editorial choice by the same editor who went to such great lengths to bring back Tripp Tucker, a character who was actually killed on screen. Madea has valid reason to be upset, and I don't blame her.

In any case, Dayton is right - you should really read the book, and Janeway's usage in it, before you decide.

Umm. I'm not sure that's such a good idea. The book is bad (abominable might be a more accurate term). After reading it, I almost wondered if I should bother reading another Trek novel. Luckily, I've also read some very good ones recently, so that moment didn't last very long. Even then, though, the non-Trek books on my to-read pile have elevated in appeal since I finished Before Dishonor.

Warp Coil said: I have no problem with beloved characters getting killed off so long as their deaths are well-written, integral to the story and don't come out of left field. Sure, if Janeway was sitting there drinking a cup of tea and was killed by a stray phaser bolt, it would be lame and pointless.

But that's just it: Janeway was killed in what was probably the worst-written Trek novel in quite some time. Her death was the climax of a plot built on lame and pointless plot devices (mutiny) and ridiculous storytelling (the Borg ship eating starships and planets, flying through the sun yet still vulnerable to the Planet Killer's anti-proton beam, etc.) that it leaves the aftertaste of lameness and pointlessness inherited from the rest of the book which was, for the most part, lame and pointless.

 

[elaithin]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

That's a matter of opinion - For one, I found the book quite enjoyable. The only bad thing in the book is the difference in characterization in the new characters - which isn't even all that bad.

And besides. Pluto being eaten was funny.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

I didn't think the book was that bad at all. While certainly not Peter David's best work, it had its moments and is far from his worst. Seven's farewell to Janeway, words to the effect of, "Thank you for saving me. I'm sorry I couldn't save you", was genuinely tear-wrenching.

Furthermore, to me (and I suppose that YMMV) Janeway's "death" felt more like a plot development than an actual death. I think that the best attitude to take with Janeway right now is "Wait and see" rather than "Rest in peace" or "Screw Pocket Books!"

 

[2of1million]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

elaithin said:
That's a matter of opinion - For one, I found the book quite enjoyable. The only bad thing in the book is the difference in characterization in the new characters - which isn't even all that bad.

And besides. Pluto being eaten was funny.

OMG they ate Pluto!!!

I think that captain what's his name actually said that

 

[Maestro]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

I was exceptionally disappointed with this outing. I'm sick of the Borg. They're not scary any more, they're old and overdone. In this book they were almost cartoonishly over the top. "We will absorb you." Please.

In fact, the whole book was rather comic booky.

I am also sick of the Picard hate from the Admiralty. I do not believe that Picard's superiors have any reason to dislike him to this degree, and any issues with his handling of the Borg should have been alleviated with how he handled them in First Contact. Picard is one of the most decorated officers in the history of the Starfleet, and he's one of their most trusted diplomats. For Jellico, Nechayev, and Janeway to be treating him like a petulant 6 year-old on the playground was just plain wrong.

The entire sequence in The Bunker was poorly done. There would be a senior admiral in command, not Nechayev and Jellico considering taking charge of the situation over a "fleet commander."

Sorry. Not impressed.

 

[the_wildcard]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Well I just finished the book myself today. Overall I thought it was good, though I agree with Maestro in the previous post that there were some sequences that could be percived as "comic booky".

But hey, I liked X-Factor!

In any case, I liked alot of sequences too, especially when Seven of Nine confronted Geordi about her body and looks, hahahahaha. The debates between Spock and T'lana were also very interesting.

What I am surprised about is the mutiny plot. When they introduced the new tactical officer, second officer and counselor, I thought they would be loyal to Picard just like all crews have been in the past.

So to see the mutiny plot develop was a huge twist. And to see T'lana consistently defiant and critical of Picard was even more shocking.

I thought the direction would be spice things up a bit by making T'ana a "bit" more critical of Picard, but now it seems there is a huge divide between the both of them.

It's going to be very interesting to see how everything goes on from here. How will T'lana deal with the Picard, Worf and the crew? When will Janeway be back? And the Borg are still out there. This is going to be great!

 

[Ronald Held]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

I do agree that the Admirality should treat Picard better based on all of his accomplishments, or change their view of him based on all of the facts.