Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS*****

[ClayinCA]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

One point I'm not entirely sure of: in Before Dishonor, there's a scene that implies that Kadohata's husband also serves aboard the Enterprise. But isn't it an ongoing plot point in one of the previous novels that he's stationed somewhere else, and Kadohata has to talk to him over great distances?

 

[KRAD]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

^ Yes, Kadohata's husband, Vicenzo Farenga, is a linguistics professor on Cestus III.

 

[Technobuilder]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Steve Roby said:

Technobuilder said:
As much as I like Peter David's writing and specifically his writing Star Trek, I think I like him the best when he's writing New Frontier and pretty much has full reign and knowledge instead of TNG where he's maybe been out of the loop for awhile.

I know the books only have to jive with onscreen material, but it would've been nice to have the new charcters mesh up with their characterizations from Q&A a lot more than they did in Before Dishonor.

First, the nitpicks: it's full rein, not full reign (yes, 65,000 google hits can be wrong), and it's jibe, not jive. Nitpicking aside, yeah, I think it shows that PAD's not used to writing Trek that isn't NF. Being consistent with characterization established by other writers hasn't been his strong point in quite some time. Previous cases in point: Lefler and Jellico.

Well...

Okay.

It wouldn't be the internet if there wasn't someone willing to tell someone else that they'd screwed up AND point it out not only to them but to everyone else as well.

I mean... How else are they supposed to learn?

 

[Sci]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Actually, what impressed me the most is that, for once, PAD wrote Jellico without making him an irrationally unreasonable, over-the-top asshole throughout the whole thing.

 

[Steve Roby]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Technobuilder said:
Well...

Okay.

It wouldn't be the internet if there wasn't someone willing to tell someone else that they'd screwed up AND point it out not only to them but to everyone else as well.

I mean... How else are they supposed to learn?

Hey, at least I basically agreed with you.

 

[Ronald Held]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

For the onscreen Jellico, how would you describe his personality?

 

[David Mack]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

^ Stiff and aloof, but also very professional.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Ronald Held said:
For the onscreen Jellico, how would you describe his personality?

David Mack said:
^ Stiff and aloof, but also very professional.

Hm. I'd say kind of the opposite, although I agree with the "stiff" part. Ronny Cox's Jellico, as I saw him, was someone who tried to be friendly with his crew, calling everyone by their first names and such; but at the same time, he was very much on his guard about the Cardassian threat, even to the point of borderline desperation, so he drove the crew too hard and too inflexibly. I always thought of him as someone who'd probably be a very nice guy if you met him off duty, but who was out of his depth in a crisis situation, who didn't handle the pressure very well and made poor decisions as a result.

I don't know if that's what was scripted, but it's what Ronny Cox brought to the characterization, I felt. Ever since RoboCop, Cox has gotten a reputation as a villain type, but before then, he was typecast as a nice-guy actor, believe it or not. And I felt he managed to make Jellico a blend of both types, an antagonist with a sympathetic side.

 

[CaptainDonovin]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

I did find Jellico a bit arrogant and kind of an ass. I saw Chain of Command again a while ago and realized he was someone who wanted results quickly and that was it. Now this could have had something to do with the situation since we never saw him with his crew on the Cairo but he was thrown into a situation with a new crew on a mission that was a big deal. Not the ideal situation to become buddy/buddy though he did call the crew by their first names. I also felt he was a sympathetic antagonist and a good one. I thought he handeled the Cardassians pretty well.

As for how he has been written, if I remember correctly he and Calhoun seem to be okay with each other, Calhoun calling him Ed (a good, strong name!!).

 

[Sci]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Hmm. My take on Jellico is more akin to David Mack's, I'm afraid. I don't think that the things he was asking for were unreasonable, though I tend to agree that he wasn't as willing to listen and compromise as he should have been. By the same token, though, he came across as being far more professional than the Enterprise crew, who came across as a bunch of whiny, petulent children. And he handled the Cardassian situation very well, managing to avoid a major war and negotiate a peace treaty that apparently held until Gul Dukat launched his Dominion-backed coup.

And then, at the end, when the crew had treated him like shit, he swallowed his pride and displayed professionalism by telling them that it had been an honor to serve with them... and they didn't say it back.

The TNG crew came across horribly in that episode, and while Jellico didn't come across as being without flaw, he did come across much better and as being much more professional.

 

[nx1701g]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Finally after two weeks of searching I found a copy so I plan to read it tomorrow and will get my review up probably by Thursday at the latest.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

I'm sure that on the Cairo, Jellico was well respected and even admired. They were *used* to him. They knew how he operated, what was expected of them. The Ent-D crew were turned totally upside down. So some friction was expected.

And, God help me, I so wanted Jellico to clock Riker across the face. But then he wouldn't have had time to say my favorite line:

"Get that fish out of the ready room!"

 

[Technobuilder]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Steve Roby said:

Technobuilder said:
Well...

Okay.

It wouldn't be the internet if there wasn't someone willing to tell someone else that they'd screwed up AND point it out not only to them but to everyone else as well.

I mean... How else are they supposed to learn?

Hey, at least I basically agreed with you.

Honestly I don't fault you. It's more me continuing to wrap my head around a social culture birthed by the internet.

It's had a certain impact from what I've been able to observe thus far.

 

[Ronald Held]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

I thought he was stiff and by the book, but I have not seen those episodes in many years.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Babaganoosh said:
I'm sure that on the Cairo, Jellico was well respected and even admired. They were *used* to him. They knew how he operated, what was expected of them. The Ent-D crew were turned totally upside down. So some friction was expected.

And, God help me, I so wanted Jellico to clock Riker across the face. But then he wouldn't have had time to say my favorite line:

"Get that fish out of the ready room!"

I liked "chain of command" very much. I agree with you: Each ship is formed by its captain and his or her command style. I can imagine that he was surrounded by the right people on the "Cairo" which was probably run more in a classic military style. The Enterprise is a very different environment. It is not a barracks, it is a ship that also included civilians.

I could see that Jellico is an excellent tactician and military man. But his people skills left a lot to be desired. He was good at slamming his fist on the table and impress the Cardassians. But his interpersonal skills were terrible. You, for example, work with the crew, not against it, especially when you are only captain for a limited amount of time.

Also, Riker was Jellico`s first officer. Jellico didn`t treat him as such and kept too much of the mission a secret from him. Which is not wise, even potentially very dangerous.

Nevertheless, I could respect him in spite of his flaws. I had more trouble with the Jellico PAD wrote until he suddenly and recently discovered that Calhoun is one of his best buddies, turning his attitude into the complete opposite.

 

[nx1701g]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Well I finally had the opportunity to sit down and finish Before Dishonor late last night and I've had time to let the events of the novel sink in. I have to admit that I was a bit spoilered as to what happened in the book and, to be honest, I expected to go in hating this book with a passion. There were so many things that seemed off about the story and too many things that would pull me out of the story. In addition Peter David is far from being one of my favorite authors I'm sorry to say. Despite this I must admit that I did find Before Dishonor to be an enjoyable novel in places, but others did pull me away.

One of the things that I enjoyed most was the story of the Planet Killer and the ideas presented. It drew from the past of Trek a great deal and, despite being a sequel to Vendetta, did serve as a good story to tell. I enjoyed reading that Seven of Nine bonded with the creature though I had a feeling she would have trouble isolating herself from the Doomsday Machine from the get go. It was the perfect collective for her and provided unity that she didn't have. I wondered why they selected an image of Seven without her implants and these events did explain that (and I remembered the Doctor saying in Season 7 of Voyager that she could not have her implants removed as they would kill her). The inclusion of Spock, Perrin, and Calhoun was pretty good to see. Though I am not a big fan of Calhoun here he didn't bother me so much. I do think that the Voyager crew should have been more involved despite this being a TNG novel. I would have liked to see Queen Janeway's response to her old ship. The return of Project: Endgame wasn't something I expected either.

The Enterprise scenes were pretty good but I'm sorry to say that I have lost interest in the three new characters of T'Lana, Leybenzon, and Kadohata. KRAD created characters that I liked from the beginning and PD managed to kill them in my mind. I couldn't quite figure out Kadohata's reasons for agreeing to the mutiny (correction - following of the orders) especially since she was supposed to have been with Picard since Farpoint. At first I thought that she was simply torn between worlds of loyalty to Picard and loyalty to Starfleet - but that ended when she was conspiring with the officers. Leybenzon seemed to be a character that was interesting. He was like someone playing officer before since he was forced into the role essentially (he was a NonCom in Q&A who was promoted for original thinking in repairing a damaged phaser array aboard the Roosevelt). Here he was lost and became more or less a person who was so blinded by his uniform that he didn't realize Captain Picard and Spock had a good idea. Plus, he didn't think through the logic and neither did T'Lana. How her name and description were apt. I have pictured Kristen Kruek (Lana on Smallville) as T'Lana since I read Resistance. Just like Smallville's Lana I now detest T'Lana as much. Hopefully she really does resign. Can't we have a nice Andorian Counselor, a Bajoran, hell a dog with a Universal Translator would be better than her...

My dislike of the new characters did lead me to a realization though. In their opinions of Crusher, LaForge, and Worf's views of Picard they are right. Picard does listen to the new officers, but I think he gives more support to the opinions of the old guard. I wouldn't mind this being fleshed out a bit more in the future.

Now on to the Borg. A lot of people said that this novel made the Collective frightening again - I laughed at reading that recently. Absorbing rather than assimilating is just a humorous concept. During the pages of the Thunderchild being absorbed into the Cube I was laughing not being frightened or anything of the sort. It was an interesting concept, but I think it came out more comical than anything else. Plus Pluto being absorbed wasn't exactly a frightening thing either to me. During the comments between Nechayev and Jellico while Pluto was being absorbed by the Borg Paper Towel I was taken out of the story by the "Pluto is a planet again" dialogue. Again another thing that could have been funny, but it took me out because this more than likely would be set in stone by now as decided.

At any rate I did enjoy Before Dishonor, but not as much as I could have. If I had to rate it I'd put it in the low B range at around 80-85%. It had good concepts just poor execution.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

PAD invited on his website to also add comments of his book "Before Dishonor" and I compied my review there as well.

It was interesting that quite a few people defended the mutiny story and only a few agreed with me.

PAD also added comments I found very interesting to read:


****

Posted by Peter David at November 26, 2007 07:17 PM
I was never sent a copy of Q&A prior to my writing "Before Dishonor." I was sent "Resistance" and read that, and I don't believe there was anything in "Before Dishonor" that contradicted that. If the fans want to pillory me for not hewing to a book I never had...*shrug.* Not much I can do about that.
PAD

(someone askedI do have one question though. How does one go about getting rid of two such important characters?
Do you submit the idead to the publishers/series runners? or do they give you a guideline to workwith? I have always been curious about how writers do that.
Thanks

Posted by Peter David at November 27, 2007 02:07 AM
The idea was initiated by editors at Pocket. It never would have occurred to me to approach them with a story that involves doing away with characters.
PAD

****

These are the comments I gave so far:

I still think that following Picard`s idea of trying to reactivate the planet killer makes much more sense than insisting to return to Earth and be one of many ships trying to stop the Borg in a direct confrontation. Picard had Spock and Seven with him. If someone could do it, it was them. To me the logic is so obvious: If it works, great! If not, they would return as quickly as possible.

Starfleet/the Federation should be glad that they have or had captains like Picard, like Kirk, like Calhoun - and others like them, people who are original thinkers, who have the instincts and skills to adapt quickly to new situations and are confident and brave enough to do what is right or what seems to be right at the time, no matter what Admirals who are sitting far away think.

I still think the mutiny story makes little sense. All this mistrust towards Picard and this "orders are orders, no matter what" talk, that the Admirals were not thinking "Let Picard try it. Who knows, it might even work", first of all reminded me of episodes like "The Pegasus", "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost" and "Valiant". "Stone and Anvil" also shows how cadets are drilled from early on to follow orders without questioning them, that even older cadets are considered to be superior officers and even when they obviously misuse their authority, including bullying, cadets have to obey or get into trouble. I find that very disturbing and in that light, "Before Dishonor" also left a bad taste in my mouth.

Instead of blaming Picard, I think it is about time Starfleet`s Admirals learn to be more flexible and trust captains more to do their jobs.

(end)

Maybe someone else wants to comment?

 

[J47]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Baerbel Haddrell said:
I still think the mutiny story makes little sense. All this mistrust towards Picard and this "orders are orders, no matter what" talk, that the Admirals were not thinking "Let Picard try it. Who knows, it might even work",

I imagine they were thinking along the lines of "Well, if they say they'll leave us alone if we give them Picard and Seven, why the hell not?" Granted, it was rather obvious that the Borg would never have gone along with that (even before we see Janeway's POV), but that type of thinking is not inconsistent with the way most Admirals have been portrayed in Star Trek, with few notable exceptions (indeed, Ross is the only one that comes to mind at this moment, and even he fell victim to it more often than not).

As for the crew's mutiny, it was more a plot device to show the inherent conflict between the old and the new crew than anything else. As PAD points out, he didn't have Q&A at his disposal, and as such it's kind of hard for him to make it consistent with KRAD's work, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with it if one ignores the characterizations KRAD put forward (which was certainly my biggest problem with the mutiny). In this case, it's pretty clear to me (as I've previously mentioned) that the inconsistencies are the fault of the editor, and not PAD nor KRAD.

 

[Ronald Held]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

I am curious as to how old T'Lana is in Standard years and how long she was a Starfleet officer?

 

[Stevil2001]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Baerbel Haddrell said:
I still think the mutiny story makes little sense. All this mistrust towards Picard and this "orders are orders, no matter what" talk, that the Admirals were not thinking "Let Picard try it. Who knows, it might even work", first of all reminded me of episodes like "The Pegasus", "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost" and "Valiant". "Stone and Anvil" also shows how cadets are drilled from early on to follow orders without questioning them, that even older cadets are considered to be superior officers and even when they obviously misuse their authority, including bullying, cadets have to obey or get into trouble. I find that very disturbing and in that light, "Before Dishonor" also left a bad taste in my mouth.

That's how the military works! Orders are orders, not vague guidelines or suggestions!

Instead of blaming Picard, I think it is about time Starfleet`s Admirals learn to be more flexible and trust captains more to do their jobs.

The problem with this conflict is that it's so contrived. By the time of Before Dishonor, Picard has saved the Federation from the Borg by going with his instincts over orders at least twice. For the Federation Council and the Admiralty to act the way they do makes absolutely no sense. The only reason Spock needs to propose his new General Order is because everyone else is dumb.

It's the same problem as in the early New Jedi Order novels, where the New Republic government was constantly banning the Jedi and military from doing things seemingly only because it would create a new obstacle for our heroes to fight.