Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS*****

[Ronald Held]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

a reason that Janeway's death did not make a big impact, is that her roles in the recent TNG books seemed out of character.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Wow. Even though I had read a few spoilers, I never thought that I would put this book down and feel this kind of hatred towards Lebenzon, T'Lana and Kadohata. They've all been "Kennedy'd" to me (refering to the character Kennedy on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", who was such a bitch that I actually considered her to be a villain, despite her working for the good guys. What a shame that she survived "The Chosen". At least she hasn't contaminated the S8 comics yet). They are all irredeemable in my eyes and I hope that they all meet the painful and horrible end that they so desperately deserve.

It's a shame, because I liked T'Lana and Kadohata. T'Lana was a different kind of counselor that I hoped would bring a new dynamic to the ship. Instead, she turned out to be an arrogant and self-righteous cow who does not deserve to serve in Starfleet. Kadohata's actions were simply incomprehensible, given how long she has served with Picard. Leybenzon, OTOH, I didn't care for anyway, although I was hoping that future books would change that.

It's really too bad that these characters have been wasted like this. When the DS9-R started, I liked all of the "new" characters so much that I would have read a book just featuring them (and actually did, once "Andor: Paradigm" was released). The new TNG characters on the other hand desperately need to be put out of our misery.

The best line of the book (and I actually cheered out loud upon reading this, which I did not do even when the Borg were defeated) was "Worf took one step forward and smashed his fist into Leybenzon's face" :thumbsup: (Now a part of my sig). Do it again Worf, and this time hit him so he never gets up.

And then Picard lets them stay on the ship?!?! If I were on the Enterprise, I would never feel safe turning my back on Leybenzon and he's the bleeding security chief! Sorry, Zel, I'll take my chances with the Romulans, Cardassians and the Borg. I'll feel safer with them than with your ignorant ass "protecting" me.

At least T'Lana is gone. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

 

[Stevil2001]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Brendan Moody said:

Ben said:
I thought the actions of the new crewmembers made sense considering their circumstances. I don't think you can really claim they were acting out-of-character when they've only appeared in one other book.

Sure you can, if they get halfway decent characterization in that other book, which Kadohata and Leybenzon most definitely did in the excellent Q & A. That book sets up several personality traits for each; PAD appears to have noticed "British" for one and "something about chain of command" for the other and ditched everything else.

You forget-- he seems to have also noticed "married" for Kadohata.

 

[SiorX]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Turtletrekker said:
Wow. Even though I had read a few spoilers, I never thought that I would put this book down and feel this kind of hatred towards Lebenzon, T'Lana and Kadohata. They've all been "Kennedy'd" to me (refering to the character Kennedy on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", who was such a bitch that I actually considered her to be a villain, despite her working for the good guys. What a shame that she survived "The Chosen". At least she hasn't contaminated the S8 comics yet). They are all irredeemable in my eyes and I hope that they all meet the painful and horrible end that they so desperately deserve.

It's a shame, because I liked T'Lana and Kadohata. T'Lana was a different kind of counselor that I hoped would bring a new dynamic to the ship. Instead, she turned out to be an arrogant and self-righteous cow who does not deserve to serve in Starfleet. Kadohata's actions were simply incomprehensible, given how long she has served with Picard. Leybenzon, OTOH, I didn't care for anyway, although I was hoping that future books would change that.

And then Picard lets them stay on the ship?!?! If I were on the Enterprise, I would never feel safe turning my back on Leybenzon and he's the bleeding security chief! Sorry, Zel, I'll take my chances with the Romulans, Cardassians and the Borg. I'll feel safer with them than with your ignorant ass "protecting" me.

At least T'Lana is gone. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

IAWT

I really enjoyed Before Dishonor. I got much vicarious satisfaction out of being outraged by the mutineers and watching them fail. Unfortunately, I think the cost of that emotional punch was too high, and we see that it Picard's incomprehensible willingness to keep them aboard.

Their actions are just too extreme to be chalked up to a learning experience like that. It seems Picard is willing to give them another shot because their hearts were in the right place even if their judgement was misguided. That would be perfectly in character for Picard if their infractions had been less serious, and if they were junior officers or crewmen, but this is not the case. Instead they seem emotionally unfit for Starfleet life.

As has been pointed out, Kadohata's been around long enough that her distrust of Picard is way more problematic than if she were new to the ship. One also wonders if Picard will still be so understanding if he ever finds out Lebenzon was advocating the torture of a fellow officer as a justfiable means to their ends.

I don't know what to hope for from future Trek books. I don't look forward to being introduced to yet another round of new characters, but I don't think I could stomach the further adventures of Kadohata and Lebenzon either. Their character's have been too heavily undermined.

 

[Smiley]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

I think it's too soon to write off Kadohata and Leybenzon. Bennett and Mack are great writers, and I'm confident that they can do some interesting things with those characters.

 

[VanCardboardbox]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Just finished it. A couple of thoughts...

Firstly: Pluto is gone? Too much. Given the joke about shifting Pluto's planetary status ten times in three hundred years, I gather that the author has some feelings about Pluto no longer being designated a planet by astronomers. The nature of Pluto's demise struck me as somehow more over-the-top than even the outrageous fate of Thallon in NF. YMMV.

Even though Pluto and its moons are of relatively tiny mass, would its disappearance have any affect on the orbits of the planets, however small? Any astrophysicists out there?

I'll echo the previously posted sentiments about the characterizations of the three new senior officers. Leybenzon in particular is pretty much beyond redemption. That the mutineers were technically enforcing Starfleet orders doesn't wash with this reader. I will find it difficult to buy Picard and Worf trusting this guy with their lives and the lives of their crew in subsequent stories, should Leybenzon remain on the Enterprise.

I'm a Spockophile so dropping him into a story is always fine by me. PAD got him spot on, I thought.

Seven, too, was well written and I've never liked her so much. Never was a big fan of Voyager. I confess that I kind of got a morbid kick out of the consequences of Janeway ignoring the Lady Q. Does this mean I'm evil? And where are the Not.Dead. posts?

As for sheer readability, I always find PAD's novels to be page turners and BD is not an exception. Read it in two sittings which is uncommon for me. The only Trek novel I have read in a single sitting is PAD's Captain's Table entry. Good book, that one.

Couldn't stop thinking about Return of the Archons any time the Borgified Janeway said "absorbed". Borg drones in hooded brown robes carrying long staffs. I guess Pluto was not of the Body.

Was the Borg's threat to assimilate the Q Continuum a foreshadow for an upcoming story? It was a shocking idea that wasn't followed up on. Or did I miss something?

Of the four post NEM TNG novels published thus far, my favourite is KRAD's. Ironically, and despite all the end-of-the-world hand ringing in BD, the stakes were way higher in the lighter toned Q&A.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

VanCardboardbox said:
Even though Pluto and its moons are of relatively tiny mass, would its disappearance have any affect on the orbits of the planets, however small? Any astrophysicists out there?

It would have a trivial effect on the orbits of Uranus and Neptune, perhaps, and on various other Kuiper Belt objects. Given the long, slow orbits of bodies that far out, it would take generations for any change to become noticeable.

Of much more concern would be the effect of the destruction of that humongous Borg vessel in the inner Solar System. Starfleet and civilian agencies would probably be busy for years cleaning up the debris.

 

[Ronald Held]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Pluto/Charon and moons have a very small effect on the other gas giants.
I did find entertaining the Pluto planet/dwarf planet changing status.

 

[Lord Nimon]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Pluses - Seven's characterization, Spock, the planet killer, the exchange between Lady Q and Janeway at the beginning, the discussion of Pluto's categorization.

Minuses - who the hell were those new officers? They certainly weren't the 3-dimensional characters I was introduced to in Q&A. I actually thought that the potential for Worf and T'Lana that was set up in Q&A was pretty good - now that's out the door.
- thousands of people kick the bucket in this book but there is no serious recognition of this or repercussions, unlike Wolf 359 which has always been treated like the huge event it was. The death toll here seems much higher, but the deaths are trivialized in comparison.
- Destroying Pluto is a definite no. It's a major change to Earth's surroundings for the entire future of Trek literature. How long before someone forgets that it's gone and mentions it offhand in a novel? I give it two years at most. This should not have been done.
- Why is God given such a bum rap in this latest series of NG novels? First there are gods that casually destroy universe after universe, then Lady Q implies that she is God. As a person who actually believes in God, I find the constant preaching of atheism in these novels to be a tad monotonous. From my experience, having a discussion about religion with an atheist is always boring. While most religious people I have met admit to having questions or doubts about their faith, the atheists I have met always know that they are 100% right and everyone else is wrong. Right, I'll duck for cover.

Before Dishonor was gripping at times while I was reading it, but there were so many red flags it left a bad aftertaste.

-Nimon

 

[Christopher]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Lord Nimon said:
- Destroying Pluto is a definite no. It's a major change to Earth's surroundings for the entire future of Trek literature. How long before someone forgets that it's gone and mentions it offhand in a novel?

Uhh, how many times has Pluto ever been mentioned in a Trek novel? I think this is maybe the second or third time in nearly four decades. I don't think the risk is that great.

- Why is God given such a bum rap in this latest series of NG novels? First there are gods that casually destroy universe after universe, then Lady Q implies that she is God. As a person who actually believes in God, I find the constant preaching of atheism in these novels to be a tad monotonous.

Huh? You just gave me whiplash with that non sequitur. Neither of these books made any claims about the existence of God one way or the other. They mention beings with powers that seem godlike, but that has no bearing on the question of the existence of an actual deity or deities. Nothing is being "preached," certainly not atheism. How do you preach against something by not bringing it up at all?

 

[Rosalind]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Just a pre-empt reminder to keep the discussion civil please, everyone.

or Emh is threatening to clang the thread until he has read the book.

Thank you.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

And Lady Q's assertation that she is God should be taken with same grain of salt that was used when Q said the same to Picard in "Tapestry".

"The universe is not so poorly designed."

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

I don't really care what these books say about God, one way or another. It doesn't affect my faith one bit.

Even so, we do keep hearing about "Them" and how "They" create and destroy universes and all that. So I can see where the confusion comes from.

(Although... just because "They" might say they would do that, doesn't mean they actually DID. FWIW. And as has already been pointed out, both Q and Lady Q have personally claimed to be God, and as the Q are adept at being total BS-artists, I can laugh that off.)

 

[CaptainDonovin]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

That whole part about Lady Q saying she is God didn't bother me one bit, just looked at it as a Q being a Q. We need to take what a Q says with a grain of salt. A big one.

The refrences to 'Them' and 'They' just make me think of another powerful race we may or may not know yet but I see no preaching in this book. Also made me think of an album from the late-80s but never mind that.

As for Pluto, it was sad but we still have Ceres, Eris, Quaoar, Sedna and about 1000 other dwarf planet candidates hiding out there.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Well, maybe not 1000. Mike Brown, the top dwarf-planet hunter these days, estimates there may be 200 or so in all, about 80 of which have been tentatively identified by his team to date.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Christopher said:

Lord Nimon said:
- Destroying Pluto is a definite no. It's a major change to Earth's surroundings for the entire future of Trek literature. How long before someone forgets that it's gone and mentions it offhand in a novel?

Uhh, how many times has Pluto ever been mentioned in a Trek novel? I think this is maybe the second or third time in nearly four decades. I don't think the risk is that great.

Furthermore, it would only be an issue in books set in late 2380 or later.

 

[Ronald Held]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

I doubt merely removing Pluto has a long term affect on the stability of the rest of the planets.

 

[JD]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Christopher said:
Well, maybe not 1000. Mike Brown, the top dwarf-planet hunter these days, estimates there may be 200 or so in all, about 80 of which have been tentatively identified by his team to date.

How far out would those 200 go? Would those just be in our immediate area or as far out as we've seen? I don't mean to get off topic, I'm just curious about this stuff.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Hmm, I misspoke (because the Wikipedia article misinterpreted Brown's actual comments -- I'll go fix that after posting this). Brown is saying that he expects there to be 200-ish dwarf planets in the Kuiper Belt and another couple of thousand in the scattered disk beyond it (where Sedna is located). There might be even more when you get out to the Oort Cloud. And based on one or two things I've read, I wouldn't be surprised if there were still some full-sized planets out there awaiting discovery.

Here's Brown's page where he actually makes these estimates:

http://web.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/dwarfplanets/

 

[CaptainDonovin]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

I was just pulling the first number that came from the top of my balding head. I remember seeing that too but I was just trying to make the loss of Pluto less painful. Still wondering where that fourth moon came from, all I know of is Charon, Hydra, & Nix. Would be a fitting name if a fourth one was found.