Spoilers Batwoman - Season 2

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by dahj, Dec 9, 2020.

  1. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Cartoon Premium Member

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    Who?
     
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  2. David cgc

    David cgc Admiral Premium Member

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    I believe he was wearing a Crow hat, yes.
     
  3. Caretaker

    Caretaker Commodore Premium Member

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    The show could use background on the Crows - when did they start? What is their history? How did they relate and react to Batman and his rogues gallery while they were around? At what point was it decided that Gotham needed a massive private security force? What is their relationship to the GCPD? It's like the iffy world-building of Supergirl again - season one, aliens are rare, season two, the alien population has exploded.
     
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  4. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Admiral Admiral

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    I'm really liking Ryan.
     
  5. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    So far, so good. That is to say, so far it's as plausible as anything done in BW S1, the story of Ryan Wilder is keeping me engaged, and there being someone with a criminal record for whom the worst is assumed in the hero position is a worthwhile track to explore.

    My biggest concern is that I don't give a bat's ass about kryptonite. The way that kryptonite entered the story in S1 was awkward from the get-go. I care about kryptonite only in relation to Superman, Supergirl, and other Kryptonians, not in terms of what effect it has on the Batsuit. The sooner the kryptonite subplot is dispensed with, the better.
     
  6. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Some of this was established in season 1.

    https://arrow.fandom.com/wiki/Crows_Security#History
     
  7. Marc

    Marc Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    not really.

    we know what we need to know about the crows - they were set up in response to the corruption of the Gotham PD and the crime in the city.

    The crows are plot device with the main point of interest being Jacob Kane and Sophie Moore.
     
  8. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I don't think that's right, though. I mean, a group that only protects people rich enough to pay for the service doesn't strike me as a bastion of integrity. Crows Security started as a private security agency for wealthy Gothamites; they only rose to wider prominence after Batman disappeared about 5 years ago, leaving a void that the Crows seized the opportunity to fill.
     
  9. Marc

    Marc Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    just because it doesn't strike you as right, doesn't mean that when the crows were first setup they weren't a bastion of integrity and there's been nothing to show that as a organisation that the crows are corrupt unlike the GCPD.
     
  10. ToddKent

    ToddKent Captain Captain

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    There's still a lot to dig into. If someone started a a private organization in your town and started "arresting" people and holding them for questioning, it would be a big deal. Are they obligated to provide an attorney for a citizen accused of a crime? Is there any organizational body in charge of making sure they don't violate a citizen's civil liberties?

    The GCPD seem to acquiesce to them but what kind of relationship do they have with the county sheriff's dept? What about if a federal crime is committed? Are the FBI expected to put up with this weird arrangement? Seems like there would need to be a lot of "lobbying" done with lots of city officials to maintain the situation.
     
  11. Marc

    Marc Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    most likely the crows were granted powers or "deputised" by the city at some point.

    Pretty sure that some background was given to the crows in the pilot.
     
  12. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I meant factually right, not morally. I don't think it's correct that they were created as a counter to the corrupt police. The wiki article doesn't say so, at least. Was this actually stated somewhere in the show? My recollection is that they rose to prominence selling themselves as an alternative to Batman, not to the police.
     
  13. dahj

    dahj Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I for one am very sold on the reboot. That was another solid and entertaining episode, Ryan fit right in among the cast, loving the burgeoning of her relationship with Mary and Luke, looking forward to seeing this world from her perspective, and gotta say I'm enjoying that on top of the usually darkish, gothamy stuff going on, this season's also seems to be bringing a lighter, more fun, comedic angle to it.
     
  14. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Tha "bi much" is the problem with all things Wilder; the showrunners had no plan to develop a character who comes to the BW identity through believable means having nothing to do with one plot convenience after another. Remove the forced Alice connection and robbery thwarted by BW, and Wilder has no purpose of her own.
     
  15. dahj

    dahj Vice Admiral Admiral

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    By that logic comics Batwoman had "no purpose" being Batwoman, and neither would many legacy characters. Most of the time it's really enough just to be inspired by an existing hero, why wouldn't this be sufficient now?

    I'd say Wilder's backstory and this being Gotham after all is plenty enough motivation for her to become a costumed crimefighter. The "coincidences" they threw in to connect her to the rest of the cast are only there to speed things along so the show can already hit the ground running in episode 3 instead of dragging her encountering everyone and building connections with them from scratch over dozens of episodes, and I'm fine with that. It's not like weirder shit hasn't happened in comics before. :shrug:
     
  16. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Ryan is going to get paid.

    She has no job.

    Inches way from losing her apartment.

    A Year as Batwoman, and she is set for life.

    Millions?

    A year as Batwoman is a job interview for a 6 figure a year security gig at Wayne Tech.

    Live in the cave for free.

    Live in Wayne Tower for free.

    Her choice is... Isn't she already living in her car?

    Ryan's choice is homelessness or Superheroing.

    Even Luke is a multimillionaire if his Trust fund has kicked in.

    This is getting pretty close to bum fighting.

    They are paying Ryan to fight other poor people.

    I'm going to make this weird.
     
  17. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    They aren't even that implausible as coincidences go. So Alice's gang killed her stepmother? They've killed a ton of people. So Sophie has arrested/interviewed her before? The Crows arrest a lot of people, no doubt targeting poor Black people disproportionately as law enforcement has always done, and as a high-ranking Crows member, Sophie probably interviews most of them. So Batwoman saved her from a crime once? She saved a bunch of people from crimes. Okay, cumulatively it's a bit small-universe, but arguably much less so than Kate Kane's first arch-nemesis just happening to be her long-lost sister.

    Even Kate's plane crashing near Ryan isn't that huge a coincidence. I just rewatched the scene, and yes, a piece of it did land right in front of Ryan's van, but Mary said "Gotham's raining jet parts," so apparently Ryan wasn't the only one that happened to along the jet's descent path. From the jet's trajectory when she saw it overhead, its actual crash site was probably a mile or two away from the van. Ryan was just the only one who chose to go directly to the crash site and look for survivors, which speaks to her basic decency and proto-heroism.
     
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  18. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I decided to look at the second episode, which I wasn't really planning on after watching the second season premiere. I felt this episode was a step back in many ways. What worked for me was that Luke came off as more forceful and as a good counterpoint to Wilder. I also like how Mary (?) has become Wilder's advocate, so that sets up some nice Batwoman team conflict. Alice, or more so the actress portraying her, is growing on me more. I still don't like this take on Alice, and felt maybe this character should've been the Joker's Daughter. I know the tie between Kane's Batwoman and Alice in the comics, and on the series, but still, mixing Alice's story in with the Joker's Daughter perhaps would make this character work for me more than they do. I also like Wilder's approach to being Batwoman.

    The writing and special effects weren't great for this episode, especially the writing. The fight choreography wasn't great either, though I did like how Wilder stopped the store robbery. Getting a better look at the Batmobile, I'm no longer a fan of it. I thought it looked neat in the first episode, but seeing it more up close it's lacking bat flourishes. Put the Bat symbol on the doors or something.

    Not being well- versed on this series when I saw the bat with the glowing eyes I was wondering if they were bringing Man-Bat into this. Alas, but we are getting what comes across as a version of the League of Assassins.

    It seems like the episode quickly forgot about Wilder's kryptonite poisoning after the robbery. Seems like it should've been affecting her throughout the episode, or that she should've asked Mary, a doctor, for help.

    Being a neophyte again, I don't see the need for the Crows. Jacob Kane could've just been the new commissioner after Gordon or something. The Crows act pretty much like the police anyway.

    There's just something too artificial about this series. That protest looked lame. The writing is trying to be socially conscious and perhaps, even in their mind, hard hitting, but it can come across as inorganic. It's nice to have another superhero series take on social issues, particularly ones that haven't been discussed much, or in depth, in comics, and from a perspective rarely seen in superhero films or television, but the execution here can stand some improvement.

    I also wonder if maybe I'm just not into the Arrowverse storytelling style anymore, if there is such a thing. I don't see the series going as much into depth as Black Lightning, though if Batwoman makes it to season 3, it would be nice if some of the BL writers were brought into the writers' room to make the social commentary and real world feel more organic and gripping. Arrow, a decade old series-while lacking much social commentary-felt more serious and hard hitting-which is where I feel Batwoman should be, but at the same time, I think the series also wants to be lighter. Leslie does bring a quirkiness to the role that can make that work, though I don't know if they can balance the dark and light aspects successfully that I see in the show.
     
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  19. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    We rarely disagree, but I do here to some extent. Certainly there's a lot of coincidences here, but that's not much different than other superhero stories-in print or on screen. The Alice connection works because as others have pointed out, Alice has terrorized a lot of people. Now we are getting to see one of the 'invisible', nameless victims in the background coming to the fore, a person whose trauma or death won't make the front pages.

    While Batwoman saving Wilder from a robbery might have been too much and unnecessary, at the same time, Batwoman (once again as others have pointed out) has saved a lot of people and we also get to see her and what she means from a different perspective, that of a potential victim.

    Absent both of those things, from what I take of Batwoman season 1, Kate Kane became a symbol of hope to the city, and that motivation, to improve her own life and that of the citizens of Gotham, is all the motivation that Wilder would need. Donning the Batsuit could be seen as defying the naysayers who believe she isn't much or will amount to much, including overcoming her own self-doubts. Almost like an opposite of the Arthur Fleck story, where he went too deep inside himself and his transformation turned destructive and tragic, Wilder could've used the Batsuit to grow outward and become more than she ever realized. I think that could be a powerful motivator. And where Alice comes in would be that she feels the new Batwoman is desecrating Kate's memory and wants her dead, so the impetus goes to Alice to take out the 'fake' Batwoman, and Wilder now has to defend herself.

    One place that perhaps the series has erred is to make Wilder such a loner. Having a small circle of friends, someone that Alice could threaten that she cares about, could also have been a motivator. Perhaps the show, for understandable reasons though, rushed too quickly to have Wilder meet Luke and Mary. Having Wilder experiment with the Batsuit, talk it over with friends, or a friend, etc. could've more organically established the character and her motivations as well.
     
  20. Mr. Adventure

    Mr. Adventure Admiral Admiral

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    I think the Alice part is OK, I thought having BW there seemed too much to me at least. And it felt at odds with Ryan's reaction to the suit and stuff in the previous episode.
     
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