Spoilers Batwoman - Season 2

[DarKush]

I've only seen the first and last episodes of Season 1, and then this episode, and I was okay with it for the most part. I didn't care for the Ryan Wilder character on paper. I was concerned that she might be a list of stereotypes and unworkable as a character, but in live action, I think Leslie did a pretty decent job. Though I liked Ruby Rose in the suit (being a good physical actor IMO), I never cared much for her Kate Kane outside of it.

Leslie's Wilder came off as likable, and more relatable than I was expecting considering her character description from last year. I can understand how Trek_God_1 felt regarding the speech Wilder gave, however I'm more charitable, because I felt it illuminated aspects of her character, worldview, and differentiated her from Kate. Black Lightning does convey that kind of social messaging better, weaving it into the dialogue or stories, but that said, Wilder made the speech after just meeting Luke and Mary. She didn't have an established rapport with them. She was trying to justify why she was keeping the suit.

I've long liked the Hush as Bruce story, and feel that both the comics and this episode didn't do it justice. I would've loved to have seen "Bruce" insinuate his way into everyone's lives and into Gotham before he was exposed. But this episode moved on from the Rose era quite efficiently, and I also felt respectfully. Kate's memory lingers and it affects the other characters. While reading some of these comments I hadn't grasped how much this episode was setting up the new confrontation between Jacob and Wilder's Batwoman, keeping that Batwoman vs. the Crows conflict, but in a new way, for the second season. It was easy enough to get how Wilder and Alice are connected, and I was fine with that. It's simple, but effective.

Still not a fan of Alice, who I feel tries too hard to be a Joker-lite, but that said, as the episode went on, I was more okay with the character. I still prefer how she was depicted in the comics though.

Didn't care for them not having a scene or two with Wilder trying on the suit and testing it out. The episode was galloping along. It felt like they were hell bent to wrap up Kate's storylines, including the Hush as Bruce one. It made little sense that he would tear off after Wilder like that when he perhaps could've used his charm to get the suit back from her. But I guess they felt a need for a big showdown and also to show off the new Batmobile-which I like.

I wasn't much of a fan of the writing in the other two Batwoman episodes I've seen, but for the most part they juggled a lot of the balls well enough in this soft reboot.

 

[ToddKent]

I'm glad that the "Hush as Bruce Wayne" story got wrapped up so quick. If the storyline were being written by the Flash writers it would have lasted all season with all the characters being completely clueless. Good too see at least one of the characters being written as smart and figuring it out immediately.

 

[DEWLine]

Most of the core characters of Batwoman are investigators by career training or necessity in one way or another. One or more of them were going to twig to "Bruce" being off eventually. And it's good that the writing team got that mess out of the way fast.

 

[Christopher]

Not bad, but it had some awkward bits where the seams showed. Ryan giving Luke and Mary a whole big speech about her motivations within moments of meeting them was a bit much; I think it would've worked better if they'd had time to save that for their second confrontation, have her be more closed off at the start. Who opens up that much to someone they've just met? Also, having Alice be the one responsible for the death of Ryan's mother is a huge coincidence, a contrived way to give Ryan a personal motive to go after Alice -- though at least it's a very different motive from Kate's.

Still, I like Ryan. She's a fun character. Despite her tragic background, she isn't as serious as Kate, more quirky and playful. And I like the contrast in her background, without the privileges that come with being rich and white and famous. It should make for an interestingly different take on Batwoman.

I agree it's too bad they couldn't get Ruby Rose to do a voiceover on the letter. It implies that their parting with her might not have been amiable.

Also agreed that it's no surprise that Hush couldn't keep up the Bruce Wayne impression for very long. He wasn't temperamentally suited for it, and he was only sent in for a single short-term mission. Still, I wonder if that arc was originally planned to be longer.

Even if this is merely the latest top of the line versions. There should be older models in storage. The idea that any Batwoman needs to wear Batman’s actual suit is completely unnecessary.

I don't think the story requires it to be the only Batsuit. After all, it's a highly valuable and dangerous piece of technology in the wrong hands, so their urgency at getting it back would remain even if there are backup suits.

 

[Caretaker]

Musings:

• I enjoyed the episode for the most part - talk about making lemons into lemonade.
  
• As with Christopher, I felt that heartfelt confession during the first Ryan/Mary/Luke confrontation felt out of place.
• I was actually surprised they wrapped up the "Tommy as Bruce" storyline so quickly - I figured it would last at least a couple of episodes.
• I am glad they didn't drag out the revelation of Ryan's past.

I'll be disappointed if these events don't get referenced on Supergirl when that series returns. And the question is: Is Kate dead? In real life, Caity Lotz is dating Ruby Rose, so maybe she can convince Ruby to return to the role at some point and help wrap up this storyline (assuming Ruby didn't burn all her bridges when she left0.

 

[Christopher]

I'll be disappointed if these events don't get referenced on Supergirl when that series returns.

Yeah... It would be nice to get an explanation for why Kate had to fly all the way out to National City ask if Kara could come to Gotham to destroy the kryptonite, while leaving the kryptonite in Luke's possession. That was actually the biggest contrivance/plot hole for me, though it slipped my mind earlier. Why not ask Kara to fly over to Gotham and do it there, save herself a plane trip? If Kara was too busy to get away from NC, why not bring the kryptonite with her?

In real life, Caity Lotz is dating Ruby Rose...

That is... intriguing to know.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I've only seen the first and last episodes of Season 1, and then this episode, and I was okay with it for the most part. I didn't care for the Ryan Wilder character on paper. I was concerned that she might be a list of stereotypes and unworkable as a character, but in live action, I think Leslie did a pretty decent job. Though I liked Ruby Rose in the suit (being a good physical actor IMO), I never cared much for her Kate Kane outside of it.

Yeah, if you have the time, watch the rest of season one to see how Rose developed the Kate character (and it had its ups and downs, but she did own the role).

Leslie's Wilder came off as likable, and more relatable than I was expecting considering her character description from last year. I can understand how Trek_God_1 felt regarding the speech Wilder gave, however I'm more charitable, because I felt it illuminated aspects of her character, worldview, and differentiated her from Kate. Black Lightning does convey that kind of social messaging better, weaving it into the dialogue or stories, but that said, Wilder made the speech after just meeting Luke and Mary.

The timing of the speech was not the issue, but the nature and delivery of it. Out of nowhere, Wilder should not feel the need to info dump that to two strangers, and she--through the sophomoric writing of Dries--ran down a list of talking points like some middle school teen trying their hand at political debate, and failing. All the reason why the series needs writers who know what that kind of material requires / have an understanding from a real world perspective.

Still not a fan of Alice, who I feel tries too hard to be a Joker-lite, but that said, as the episode went on, I was more okay with the character. I still prefer how she was depicted in the comics though.

Yes, that's a problem with this series; although Skarsten is a capable actress, the showrunners tried too hard to send the message that "this is the Joker of OUR series!" (instead of being a truly original character or true to the source) and if its that easy to see, the audience cannot have much emotional investment into the character.

 

[Dick Whitman]

Learning Ruby and Caity dating is more interesting than the show itself. Not due to any mental images that may or may not invoke...

No more about that Caity in the past had always been private about her personal life. Which lead to a lot of fan speculation online.

I am happy for both.

it certainly does not look good for Ruby to return to the show right now. But things can change. Long history of performers having public fallouts with producers of movies and tv shows. Which looks like they will never return.... to have that proven wrong. Bridges can be mended. Even if just temporary.

That scene confused me at first. I knew it was not Ruby’s voice but thought it might be another character reading it. That is what they should have done. Than they could have avoided recasting at all.

 

[David cgc]

It's kind of weird that Kate would check the batsuit in through the airport, seems awfully risky. Was it just in the overhead bin?

You don't have to go through security for a private plane.

 

[DigificWriter]

Why are people convinced that Ruby left the series on bad terms?

Because I can't find any evidence of that anywhere.

 

[Dick Whitman]

Why are people convinced that Ruby left the series on bad terms?

Because I can't find any evidence of that anywhere.

I agree with you that. Most are using her letter being read by by a new voice as proof. My guess is they want to prolong the mystery surrounding her disappearance. If Ruby read Kate’s letter there would be click bait articles all over with predictions on her return and when. Overshadowing the new lead of the show. Without Ruby in any way present the mystery continues.

 

[Christopher]

I'm not convinced Rose left on bad terms. I'm merely saying that not using her voiceover makes it conceivable that she did. Naturally there are other possible explanations, e.g. that Rose was just too busy with something else, or that the producers chose to save money by not paying her star rates for just a voiceover. But Rose not wanting to come back is one of the possibilities on the list as well.

 

[dahj]

Good premiere, I thought it admirably wrapped up last's seasons dangling threads considering the circumstances and did a thoroughly decent job of soft rebooting the show. Loving Javicia in the role and looking forward to seeing Ryan's take on the mantle. The only thing I'm not entirely sold on is I'm not sure they really needed Alice to be responsible for her mother's death, as there was reason enough to keep Alice on the show with the Safiyah angle. Having a suit dropped on top of Ryan is a pretty big coincidence but okay, there's been way weirder origin stories, but her also having a grudge against Alice is dangerously moving it into small universe territory. Nevertheless, can't wait to see what's in store next.

Also, if Ryan now becomes a meteor freak we'll know that the Smallville Earth also got merged into Earth Prime.

 

[David cgc]

I don't think it's too outlandish for Alice to have been involved in the murder of Ryan's mother. Alice seems to have been the primary source of super-villainy in Gotham since Batman's disappearance, and she's never been shy about casual murder. The suit literally falling into Ryan's lap is way more contrived, but the idea that whoever found the suit (in whatever fashion) would have a bone to pick with Alice (and the Crows) is pretty plausible considering the status quo of Gotham City.

 

[DigificWriter]

Ruby left Batwoman due to a combination of the following:
1) Lingering effects from her on-set injury
2) The pandemic changing her priorities

She hasn't worked on anything, as far as I know, since last March (The Doorman was filmed in 2019), so I think the most logical reason for her not providing a voiceover is that she didn't want to for personal reasons.

 

[Christopher]

I don't think it's too outlandish for Alice to have been involved in the murder of Ryan's mother. Alice seems to have been the primary source of super-villainy in Gotham since Batman's disappearance, and she's never been shy about casual murder. The suit literally falling into Ryan's lap is way more contrived, but the idea that whoever found the suit (in whatever fashion) would have a bone to pick with Alice (and the Crows) is pretty plausible considering the status quo of Gotham City.

That's a fair point. The percentage of Gothamites whose loved ones Alice has killed is not inconsequential. Still, it would've been a bit less coincidental if Alice hadn't actually been in the apartment at the time. They could've been wearing the Wonderland Gang's trademark masks, so Ryan would know Alice was behind them without her actually having to be there. Or the writers could've left their identity a mystery for Ryan to uncover over the course of the season.

 

[DarKush]

Yeah, if you have the time, watch the rest of season one to see how Rose developed the Kate character (and it had its ups and downs, but she did own the role).



The timing of the speech was not the issue, but the nature and delivery of it. Out of nowhere, Wilder should not feel the need to info dump that to two strangers, and she--through the sophomoric writing of Dries--ran down a list of talking points like some middle school teen trying their hand at political debate, and failing. All the reason why the series needs writers who know what that kind of material requires / have an understanding from a real world perspective.



Yes, that's a problem with this series; although Skarsten is a capable actress, the showrunners tried too hard to send the message that "this is the Joker of OUR series!" (instead of being a truly original character or true to the source) and if its that easy to see, the audience cannot have much emotional investment into the character.

Thanks Trek_God_1 for the suggestion but I got to admit, that pilot was painful to watch. I didn't like how weak they made Luke and as I alluded to before, Rose wasn't the strongest actress (Stephen Amell wasn't either when he started), but that, coupled with the depiction of Alice, the weak writing, and the treatment of Batman left a sour taste in my mouth for the first season. I only looked at the finale just to get ready for Season 2. To be fair, I can't really judge if Rose improved over the first season looking at just the beginning and end (for now perhaps?) of her time in the cowl, but overall I still wasn't impressed.

I've largely moved away from the Arrowverse over the years. I stopped looking at Flash-which I thought was the most consistent in terms of quality-after Season 3, only coming back from time to time. I've been coming back to Supergirl and Black Lightning, more on an episode-by-episode basis. I've stopped looking at Legends entirely. I was into Stargirl but only got about halfway through that season. I did like what I saw though. So, Batwoman (season 1) was already on shaky ground, when it came my interest in and commitment to the Arrowverse to begin with, and then the first episode didn't impress me and I didn't feel like sticking around for it. I thought Season 2 got off to a stronger start but right now I don't see myself looking at it every week. I might come back time to time if I hear about some interesting storyline or a villain, character, or actor that intrigues me (like when Wayne Brady came to Black Lightning) appears.

As for Wilder's speech, I have no fault with your critique of it. I do think it helped establish how she thinks or what she thinks-to some extent-about social issues while also serving as a mini-autobiography, but I have no problem with changing the execution, making it more organic. Some of that info could've been depicted throughout the course of season one, or tied into the various cases Wilder will take on. Though I will say that maybe Wilder just unburdened herself because she was very lonely. I mean, her only friend is a plant, so seeing too people that she shares the secret of Batwoman with, she just overshared. Oversharing seems to be something this series does across the board, except when it comes to Jacob Kane being the last to know and Julia Pennyworth keeping secrets.

 

[dahj]

In real life, Caity Lotz is dating Ruby Rose

 

[Marc]

I mean, her only friend is a plant, so seeing too people that she shares the secret of Batwoman with, she just overshared.

Not sure that I'd call it a friend - it's her carthasis, a link to her mother in the same way as Kate's diary entries to Bruce were.

 

[ToddKent]

I didn't have a problem with Ryan's vendetta against Alice. I was actually worried that there wouldn't be any good reason for the two to have a conflict or that they'd just make Alice decide to fight the new Batwoman just for the sake of fighting the new Batwoman.

I also noticed there was no Vesper Fairchild in this episode. Guess I haven't paid enough attention but I wasn't sure if this was the first time her narration was absent or if it had happened before.