Spoilers Batwoman - Season 2

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by dahj, Dec 9, 2020.

  1. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Well, given how production schedules work, the writers almost certainly had the script for episode 2 written before they filmed episode 1, so they would've had time to revise the episode 1 script to incorporate ideas from episode 2. After all, this was a season premiere, not a pilot filmed months ahead of the rest. The producers said the crowd scenes in episode 2 were filmed before the COVID shutdowns, so if there was a long hiatus, it wasn't between 1 & 2. So the writers presumably felt that the two episodes worked together.
     
  2. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    This season is getting off to a pretty good start.
    I'm liking Ryan a lot. I can kind of see where having Alice kill her mom was a bit small universe, but since so much of Season One revolved around Kate and Alice, I can see wanting to do something to give Ryan a reason to go after her.
    I'm actually glad they moved pretty quick with her meeting everyone and getting used to the suit. We've already got a lot of stuff left over from last season, so I can see wanting to be able to jus hit the ground running, and not spending a lot of time showing Ryan meeting everyone and learning to use the suit.
    I'm looking forward to getting to see things from such a different perspective from what we got in Season One.
    The only thing that really bugged me in these two episode was the stuff with the bats in the second episode. I love bats, and pretty much everything they said and did with them in the episode is wrong. First of all, as far as I know there are no bats that eat anything as big as a rat. Pretty much all of the carnivorous bats are small, and live on insects, and even Vampire bats, which we don't even have in the US, mostly attack livestock, and when they do, it's just an individual that lands on the animal and makes a small cut to lick the blood out, they don't swarm and attack the way they were here. At least that stuff can be written off as being caused by the device Alice was using, and the toxin possibly making them act different than they usually would.
     
  3. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    This is a universe including metahumans, Kryptonians, Gorilla City, Atlantis, magic, and demons, so I'm willing to accept that it also includes bats that behave differently.
     
  4. dahj

    dahj Vice Admiral Admiral

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    These bats were exposed to Joker gas, Bane's Venom , Scarecrow's fear toxin... it's only natural they've gone a bit nuts.
     
  5. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Fair points.
    With all of the constant chemicals and gases being unleashed by the villains, it's kind of amazing every living thing in Gotham hasn't gone completely bonkers.
     
  6. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    One, because Wilder--after being saved by BW--did not immediately want to become a costumed crimefighter in the way Rick Jones was chomping at the bit to become Captain America's partner not long after Rogers was revived. Wilder continued on with her struggles and even in flashbacks, never had a series of "if only I could..." moments that serves as her call to action when she found the costume.

    Wilder would have been better developed if she had her own view of criminality rotting life in general (having lived around it / experience in the criminal justice system, etc.), rather than having Alice almost become the Sidious/Palpatine of Batwoman (meaning she's tied to too many characters and events in one series).
     
  7. dupersuper

    dupersuper Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Haven't they?
     
  8. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Batwoman
    Season 2 - Episode 3 - "Bat Girl Magic!"

    Luke Fox:
    Once again, the moment the character asserts his authority, he is made to bend like a rubber band to the interference of Mary and her childish cheerleading for Wilder. For a moment, he calls Mary out on said cheerleading (great moment), but nearly lets her incessant whining smother his hope that Kate might be alive. I just wonder what he will tell Mary once Sophie or Jacob give him the news about Kate...

    Victor Szasz: The series really needed more villains like this. Strong setpiece introduction, as well as his visit to Hamilton Dynamics.The best part of the episode by far. A professional of this kind should be an A-level villain not written off after a single appearance.

    Wilder/BW2: She's only operated as BW for a couple of weeks at the most, so she should not be so proficient with all of the gadgets. On that note, Wider's slo-mo leap over Victor's balcony was not going to protect her from a surface-to-air rocket. Oh, and about Luke saying she kicked major butt"...when? During the fight with Szasz, Wilder was outclassed, and was as good as dead, if not for pure dumb luck with her using the staff. Oh, and any truly trained fighter conditioned to receive blows to the head--blows delivering much more force than any spring-loaded, hollow piece of metal--would not be rendered unconscious by that shaky move. Showrunner rushjob.

    Safiyah / Alice: Meanwhile, on TV-Themyscira...
    Anyway, Safiyah explained that she was not responsible for the bombing of Kate's plane, and have not thought about her in years. Of course, that was the first bit of confusion placed in Alice's mind, as Safiyah hands Alice the olive branch for a limited partnership.

    Safiyah in possession of Kate's necklace does not mean she knows if Kate is alive / where she might be. Any rational mind (not present anywhere Alice shows up) would assume Safiyah merely had one her cult steal it from Kate's home, since no one mentioned she (Kate) was wearing it when she boarded the plane.

    Alice may not buy everything Safaiyah's saying, but she's still looking like she's talking a willing walk into a trap to snare a number of her enemies, probably taking Alice down with them.

    Regarding the "Desert Rose," eh...its the kind of MacGuffin that will never be used as one would expect, so it will likely rob the main Safiyah plot of its reason to be.

    Jacob: Hope springs eternal, as Sophie drops the Kate news on him. See NOTES.

    NOTES:
    The episode title--"Bat Girl Magic!" is a play on the term, "Black Girl Magic", which was supposed to be an uplifting expression regarding the achievements / lives of black women (but there are heated disagreements amongst black people about the nature and honesty of the term). Despite Batwoman being black, the term was loosely appropriated and used by someone (episode writer Nancy Kiu) who makes a false equivalence between Wilder's climb to prove herself and a larger cultural argument and/or recognition of the achievements of black women. Someone failed to do her homework. Not surprised.

    Safiyah's little info-dump about the theft/use of African diamonds and oil in the middle east...sloppy and high school debate team-ish. Not balancing on the endless soapboxes the showrunners are standing on.

    With several characters believing Kate might be alive, the showrunners cannot build that up, only to have Jacob, Sophie and even Alice's dreams (along with the audience's) dashed as just a Safiyah lie/plot. With the ratings being as bad as they are, it would be wise to send a U-Haul of cash to Ruby Rose's agent, and ask her to make a cameo at the season's end, just to give some sort of true closure to her run on the series, since her character was the center of that universe, and frankly, is the most compelling part of this season with every "where's Kate" conversation.
    There's no word on the series being renewed for a third season (and there's good reason to doubt that it will at this point), so if it looks like its sophomore season will be its last, a season/series ender with Kate returning (in or out of costume), aiding in defeating the main threat(s), then officially retiring (for whatever reason) / granting her OK to Wilder would be a proper send-off.

    GRADE: C.
     
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  9. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm back for a third time. I liked this episode for the most part.

    Likes:
    -Zsasz was really cool. I like this take on the character. He had some personality, was personable even. Reminded me of a young John Malkovich. I liked his introduction for the most part. Batwoman, like other Arrowverse series, seems to underuse or dispatch some of their best villains too easily. Thankfully they didn't kill him off. I do think Ryan took him out too easy, especially after he namedropped Batman, but I did like how she did it. The fight choreography for this episode was better than last week's. It called back to their earlier interaction. I like this version of Zsasz better than the one in the Harley Quinn movie.
    -Wilder as Batwoman. I liked seeing her learning the ropes, though I wish they had more of that in the first two episodes, opposed to taking on a killer on Zsasz's level. I liked the wig change to the suit, and how the parole officer gushes over Batwoman but rides Ryan, which feels like a classic comic book trope.
    -Safiyah, though she comes across like a Ra's Al Ghul character, the actress was very easy on the eyes.
    -Questions answered. A few times when I was looking at the episode I was asking myself why didn't this happen, or so forth and right after I got the answer. I mean, why hadn't a job been asked for or offered if they knew Ryan's financial situation, and same with housing, so I'm glad she got a job at Mary's bar this episode. I was also glad they quickly explained how the newspaper and Vesper knew about Batwoman's new hairstyle. I was about to howl about the newspaper having that picture of her.
    -I liked that Luke is coming around to Wilder. I didn't want him to be too much in opposition to her, that would get tiresome if it happened every week.
    -I hadn't considered that Mary was too solicitous of Wilder, but that's something for me to consider. Perhaps both Luke and Mary, both still in mourning are responding to Ryan in the suit in different ways.
    -Liked the Black Mask and Jack Napier namedrops.

    Dislikes:
    -Very good opening ruined by having Zsasz take off his clothes to cut himself in the hotel room where he just killed two people. Is the man not worried about leaving behind DNA evidence? Perhaps not since he later kills a man in broad daylight inside the Hamilton building, and that's before killing the scientist. I guess he didn't care if he was being recorded.
    -I'm not a fan of the Crows acting like the Gotham police. Why are they even investigating The False Face Society?
    -Snakebite: While I do think it's neat they bring a drug over from the comics, it just highlighted for me how I don't care for this show's take on Luke. I think snakebite was introduced-first time I heard about it anyway-in Batwing's comics, and that reinforces my dislike of how the CW has made Luke more like Curtis Holt than his comic book inspiration. The comic book Luke wouldn't just be grieving Kate, he would be Batwing. In fact, he would've been Batwing while Bruce was missing. I still wish they had named this character something else and saved Luke (as Batwing) for another series or his own spin off.
    -Desert Rose reminds me too much of the Lazarus Pit. Just make Safiyah the long lost daughter of Ra's Al Ghul in the Arrowverse already.
    -The Van Halen joke. I wish Ryan had just said 'Who?' and really meant it after Zsasz's mention. I think that would've been more cutting (pun intended) to him and funnier.
    -Bat Girl Magic: certainly a clever title, but Trek_God_1 might be onto something with that. It didn't necessarily rub me the wrong way, but can't say I would've chosen that title, especially so early in Wilder's run as Batwoman.

    I'm not sure Safiyah teasing that Kate is still alive, while I can see why it makes sense within story to manipulate Alice and perhaps Sophie (?), but that might be setting up the audience for disappointment if they can't deliver. As that story thread started unspooling I was thinking that they should've just recast Kate, because she is very important to the Alice and Safiyah storylines. Recast Kate and then perhaps kill off the character midseason, in a shocking event, and then bring Ryan in as Batwoman. Wilder could've just been introduced as a new supporting character or something, so the audience already knows a little about her before the change. Having Kate hang over the series, especially if Ruby Rose isn't coming back, doesn't really allow them to move forward.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2021
  10. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Okay, so Safiyah didn't kill Kate, but apparently has her hostage, or claims to. Seems to be a mixed message to reveal that Kate's alive in the very episode where Ryan finally embraces the Batwoman role as her own. I mean, not that I really thought she was dead, but the timing kind of undercuts Ryan's growth here. Might've wanted to hold off on that, maybe just hint at a ray of hope rather than coming out and saying "She's alive."

    This version of Zsasz worked fairly well. Not as dark and creepy as other versions, but charismatic and quirky. Hard to believe that someone so brazen would last so long as an assassin without getting caught. And the bit with the rocket launcher was ridiculously over-the-top. A machine gun would've made more sense.
     
  11. Mr. Adventure

    Mr. Adventure Admiral Admiral

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    I thought it was odd that they actually doubled down on Kate possibly being alive. One, I'm not sure where they're going with that and hopefully not toying with the audience given that I assume some felt attached to Kate and/or Ruby. Secondly, they've only just introduced Ryan so why make it harder to legitimize her as being legit Batwoman.

    I thought Ryan's knowing Zsasz was pushing it but I guess "small universe" is a feature not a bug in this show. Similarly with Alice and Safiyah, at least they're building a bit of a mythology even if it's a bit unlikely.

    Where is Safiyah's island? It seems like it has a different climate than Gotham. Did I miss something and it's supposed to be magical? It does have a bit of a Wonder Woman quality to it.

    I thought Zsasz was great and stole the show, I don't know if that was the writing or the performance or both but I found it surprisingly entertaining. I think Camrus Johnson has been good working with what's he's been given. His character seems to have a little more bearing now as I feel like he was always caving under Kate.

    I liked the van, and the idea of Ryan being close to the streets there. It makes sense for her to get new digs but I liked the quirkiness of it.

    As soon as the title dropped a couple of weeks ago I was wondering what @TREK_GOD_1 was going to think of it. ;)

    Nah, in this show she'd stand there like Superman while the bullets bounced off the batsuit.
     
  12. Samurai8472

    Samurai8472 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I've started getting into the show more and I'm noticing it's got a bit of corny over the top violence similar to FOX's "Gotham"

    -The season two premiere had Alice throw a batarang at a woman's throat.
    -The gruesome way Batwoman punched Hush's Bruce Wayne face off
    -Alice sleeping with her brother's corpse.
     
  13. David cgc

    David cgc Admiral Premium Member

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    It's an extremely bold approach to start teasing Kate's return (or confirmed death) this quickly. I don't know how to predict what this show is doing. I still remember how Ruby Rose announced her departure and the producers' muddled and confused response to it made it seem like they were as surprised as the audience. It makes me wonder about their ability to pull off some kind of surprise cameo or return or recast, or their deftness in handling something as tricky as writing off their main character, then writing her off again, but permanently.
     
  14. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Well, you don't have to be the only hero of a given name to be legitimate -- just ask Barry Allen, Wally West, or Miles Morales. Again, I don't object to the idea of Kate being alive, just the timing of revealing it at exactly the same time that Ryan's establishing herself.


    Not really. Despite being wrongly convicted, Ryan spent time in prison and would've made connections in the underworld, and Zsasz is a prominent underworld figure, so it's plausible that she would've heard of him (and it's more that they had a common acquaintance). Besides, it makes sense narratively to establish that Ryan's criminal history can be an asset to her as Batwoman, a skill she brings to the table (or the cave) that Kate didn't have.

    The part I find implausible is that Luke and the Batcomputer didn't recognize him right away, when it was later established that he's fought Batman in the past. Unless Zsasz was just boasting about fighting Batman.


    In DC continuity, Coryana is a Mediterranean island nation about 80 miles from Malta, which is south of Sicily and Italy. The architecture and scenery here struck me as Mediterranean right off the bat. "Safiyah Sohail" is an Arabic name (which they're mispronouncing -- it's sah-fee-ya, not suh-fie-uh), though the actress, Shivani Ghai, is of Indian descent. It's weird how often Western media cast Indian actors to play Arab characters (e.g. Naveen Andrews in Lost and Sinbad).


    Maybe, but I was thinking of it from Zsasz's perspective. What if she didn't duck out on the balcony in time and the rocket exploded right there in his apartment just a few feet from him? It was suicidally dangerous to even try firing such a thing indoors.
     
  15. Mr. Adventure

    Mr. Adventure Admiral Admiral

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    That was what I was getting at. I guess "legitimate" in the sense of the audience accepting the new character, I couldn't think of a better way to say it.
     
  16. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Even if it all turns out to be Safiyah BS-ing everyone, it will undoubtedly piss off a large part of this show's audience, who are still not happy about writing Kate out the show built around her.

    It was pushing it to glaring, wholly unrealistic degrees. American prisons are not like a neighborhood street--everyone just does not know everyone. A professional assassin/contract killer on the level of Zsasz might be known by name or reputation, but that's where the connection would end, as American prisons are so segregated by gender, race, level of criminality, which gang or organized crime members have influence over a block or entire prison, etc. (with the unfortunate exception of areas where sexual assaults routinely occur) that connections only happen when they are meant to. Wilder--even if one projects for the er...writer and suggests she knew someone who once worked with him (still unlikely, as many real world assassins are not "partnered up" enough for anyone to really know them), she would not instantly recognize or know much about him. This was Nancy Kiu (the episode's writer) and the showrunners desperately trying to give Wilder value to / prove herself to Luke.. Not everyone who has been incarcerated is "in" on others who very likely never cross paths (physically, or through world of mouth), especially in a purposely under the radar job like being a professional assassin/killer.


    True. It was Plot Convenience 101 again, that Alice--after leaving her captor with Mouse--had a lengthy stopover at Fantasy Island, where she received some sort of training, when all that was established about her in season one all but had her and Mouse running around the streets roughing their way into criminal behavior. No one--not Alice or Mouse--ever brought up Alice living on some island under the tutelage of Safiyah, or anyone else. The small world plotting rarely works.

    As I pointed out earlier, he should have been an A-level (main) villain; between his personality and abilities (he was a moment away from killing Wilder), he is the kind of threat this series needs, as the rubber-room voyage of Alice is wearing thin, unless she goes out in a season-ending blaze of glory with Safiyah, to protect someone.

    He's still caving in, with his only sign of a backbone in insisting Kate is alive.


    Yep.



    After all of the teasing and now in-universe clue-dropping that Kate is alive, the showrunners would shoot themselves in the foot to just have someone find a corpse, or Safiyah to say the equivalent of "whoops. I was talking about Kate Smith..."
     
  17. David cgc

    David cgc Admiral Premium Member

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    Ryan introduced herself to Zsasz as them having met (or been aware of each other) through Ryan's mysterious ex-girlfriend, the one who framed her or otherwise set her up, so it wasn't a jailhouse friendship.
     
  18. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Surely not. When I mentioned Ryan being sent to prison (which I think must be what TREK_GOD is responding to, since Mr. Adventure didn't mention prison), I didn't mean that would be the sole extent of her criminal-world contacts. What I meant was that once Ryan ended up in the criminal justice system and branded as an offender, she would've spent a lot of time surrounded by criminals and would've made connections with various people on the wrong side of the law. Not just fellow prisoners during her time in the can, but their friends on the outside, her fellow parolees, her fellow homeless people who may have had to turn to crime to survive, what have you.

    So it's no more unreasonable for Ryan to have a mutual friend with Victor Zsasz than it is for Bruce Wayne to have a history with a fellow rich guy like Tommy Elliott. People have connections within their own social circles.

    And if it is a coincidence, so what? I realized even as a child that a huge amount of fiction is dependent on improbable coincidence -- on heroes just happening to be at the right place and time to save the world, on long-lost family members just happening to be reunited in the most dramatic way possible, you name it. Statistically speaking, the odds that Kal-El's rocketship would come down near a populated part of the Earth were about one in a hundred, and the odds that he'd end up with good, loving parents who'd raise him so well were probably much lower. You could say the same about the odds that lightning would happen to strike a rack of chemicals right when Barry Allen was standing by it, or the odds that Steve Trevor's plane would come down on the coast of Themyscira rather than be lost in the middle of the ocean, or whatever. Fiction is not about routine or probable events, it's about exceptional events.
     
  19. dahj

    dahj Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Zsasz was a pretty cool villain, echoing the Gotham version with the talky jokey vibe, considering nobody stays in prison too long in these things I suspect he'll be back eventually.

    Couple of name drops there, Black Mask, Jack Napier... also Ryan's ex got a mention but I didn't recognize her name from the comics so not sure if she's supposed to be someone who's a pre-existing member of Gotham's criminal element or much like Ryan, a new addition to the mythos.

    Ryan is a bartender now, meaning waiting for drinks when that batsignal goes up is likely going to cost The Hold Up some yelp points. It's lucky the new owner is a billionaire and has some social media clout to mitigate the damage. ;)

    Coryana looked very non-Vancouvery, and overall the episode felt a slight cinematic notch up from the regular episodes so points for that too. Surprised that Kate being alive was revealed so soon, I wonder if this means they plan to wrap up her story sooner than we've all been expecting...

    So it's been 5 years since Alice was on a mysterious island, eh?
    Hmmm, when can we expect some Arrow style flashbacks then? :D
     
  20. ToddKent

    ToddKent Captain Captain

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    Anyone else think that they should have just paid her to be Batwoman and and then just give her some BS title at Wayne Enterprises? She's definitely going to have to skip out on her bar tending job to do crime fighting stuff from time to time.

    I predict that instead of just letting her live rent free at one of the Wayne properties, there will be some unnecessary hurdle she'll have to deal with next week to find an apartment.