Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

[Christopher]

^"Idiots?" Operation Insight's targets included such people as Bruce Banner and Stephen Strange (according to a certain sleeper agent) and Tony Stark and the President of the United States (according to the targeting graphics). Aspiring tyrants don't want to kill off idiots, they want to kill off the people smart enough to see through their lies.

 

[Kemaiku]

Hydra compared the relative worth of everyone alive based on their given personal information and test scores etc finding those who weren't worth bringing into their new world order.

Some of those targetted were threats, the Avengers, those who might side with them etc

But they targetted nearly a million people in NYC alone, if Insight had done the same for every population center we're talking tens of millions at least. Those can't all be Bruce Banners or Tony Starks of the world, they wanted to clear out the "weaker/lesser" parts of society.

Eugenics at sniper point. Really really friggin big sniper emplacements but still.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Spoiler: The Winter Soldier

They wanted to kill those who would be a threat to world order. It had nothing to do with them being weaker or inferior. In some ways, they could be superior (they likely would be, in fact). The end result was to preserve docile people who would willingly give up all their freedom out of fear.

ETA: I'm putting it in spoiler tags. As fruitless as it is, this is a major plotpoint of The Winter Soldier that was only referred to abstractly last week.

 

[bbjeg]

The next alien invasion, Hydra and S.H.I.E.L.D. are going to have to team up, and after that, they're going to stay teamed up...

I doubt it, especially after Hyrda tried to perform genocide.

To be fair, it's not genocide, just mass murder. There's no gens they're trying to kill.

I would say their actions count. Wikipedia interprets genocide as:

While a precise definition varies among genocide scholars, a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group

And in regards to ethnicity:

Ethnic group is a social group of people who identify with each other based on common ancestral, social, cultural, or national experience. Membership of an ethnic group tends to be associated with shared cultural heritage, ancestry, history, homeland, language (dialect), or ideology, and with symbolic systems such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, physical appearance, etc.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

But there isn't really a shared ideology and certainly not to the extent that would count for that. The only ideology is "doesn't want to be ruled by HYDRA." A good rule of thumb when it comes to the definition of genocide is that it was a compromise to make sure Josef Stalin would adopt it. That's why economic class isn't included. Likewise, opposition to Communism certainly wouldn't have been approved of. Considering we're talking about an "ethnic group," it should be something considered an ethnic group even under the broadest terms.

That being said, even under that definition, it wouldn't be an ethnic group because they aren't targeting a "social group" at all, so the definition fails at the first stage.

I've been doing it too but anything regarding events in CA:TWS should be put in spoiler tags. This is an AoS thread.

Well, that's extreme. If it was revealed in Turn, Turn, Turn, its not a spoiler even if it was an event in The Winter Soldier. Fury's death, Sitwell's allegiance, and the cancer inside SHIELD are all fair game, for example.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Spoiler: Still really? Still?

1. The guns were tracking genetic markers. They killed the family of every one that scored a failing grade.

2. The number of targets recited several times was "20 million".

 

[Nerys Myk]

I don't think "a threat to Hydra" qualifies as an ideology.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Spoiler: Still really? Still?

1. The guns were tracking genetic markers. They killed the family of every one that scored a failing grade.

2. The number of targets recited several times was "20 million".

No they weren't, not entirely.

Spoiler: TWS

They weren't tracking genetic markers in the abstract sense, they were tracking DNA profiles of specific people. It would be like tracking the identifying genetic markers of Osama bin Laden. Genetic markers, sure, but not genocide. Likewise, it would target the identifying information of Tony Stark. They didn't come close to targeting individuals based on ethnic group.

 

[Christopher]

Basically it was a mass assassination (try saying that five times fast).

 

[Jax]

Its such a pity about the ratings because this show has been improving for some time now. The DVR audience is close to 50% I believe so hopefully ABC will see that and consider a revamp of their lineup next season if they keep the show.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If Hydra had won, no bastard would know about Hydra as anything but memorabilia from the second world war.

It's still America in name.

Hell it's still America in fact.

The change in America from before 911 to after 911.

"That"

They want to do that again.

But bigger.

The ruling class of Hydra already governed 616 and probably still leads 616 from behind the curtain.

They just wanted to streamline and maximize their ruling experience.

If you really get down to it, if they can make the world %10 percent easier to rule, then they they can each take a %10 longer holiday.

And that's about it.

It wasn't a question of ruling the Earth, it was the sad fact that they wanted to rule a better Earth.

Create a safer Earth that will survive, fuck it, thrive without their constant meddling by adhering to their political leanings.

It's like how your mommy used to force you to eat your Brussels sprouts no matter how hard you pouted and held your breath.

It's just a question of pride.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Spoiler: Still really? Still?

1. The guns were tracking genetic markers. They killed the family of every one that scored a failing grade.

2. The number of targets recited several times was "20 million".

No they weren't, not entirely.

Spoiler: TWS

They weren't tracking genetic markers in the abstract sense, they were tracking DNA profiles of specific people. It would be like tracking the identifying genetic markers of Osama bin Laden. Genetic markers, sure, but not genocide. Likewise, it would target the identifying information of Tony Stark. They didn't come close to targeting individuals based on ethnic group.

Wasn't arguing progenocide, just antifamily.

Consider, if siblings and children and parents are close enough to be autotargetted and fired on, then if the program had selected 20 million specific targets, the guns would have hit twice, three, four times that number which they gave us in the movie... The only thing from stopping them killing a billion people is that I doubt that there were a billion bullets on those hellicarriers or a billion people in New York State.

They showed us a target playing base ball with his kid, unless they showed us a target playing baseball with his dad, but they were less than ten feet away from each other with familial DNA. Any way you look at it, they were both getting large holes in them.

 

[bbjeg]

...even under that definition, it wouldn't be an ethnic group because they aren't targeting a "social group" at all, so the definition fails at the first stage.

I wasn't saying they were targeting a social group, I was commenting more on the second part of that definition with "ethnic group" being associated with a shared ideology, those who won't succumb to fear.

I've been doing it too but anything regarding events in CA:TWS should be put in spoiler tags. This is an AoS thread.

Well, that's extreme. If it was revealed in Turn, Turn, Turn, its not a spoiler even if it was an event in The Winter Soldier. Fury's death, Sitwell's allegiance, and the cancer inside SHIELD are all fair game, for example.

That's why I deleted it seconds after posting it, thinking that's a bit extreme but AoS didn't have Hyrda performing genocide (just a carrier crashing and burning on a screen in the back) so we shouldn't be talking about it like we are (which I started by saying genocide). If you want to continue this conversation, jump over to the Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread.

Its such a pity about the ratings because this show has been improving for some time now. The DVR audience is close to 50% I believe so hopefully ABC will see that and consider a revamp of their lineup next season if they keep the show.

I imagine it has something to do with those who haven't seen CA:TWS yet and don't have DVR's.

 

[PsychoPere]

Wondering how this map will fit the series' future...

Probably a little bit, but not much. They'll visit SHIELD bases when appropriate, but that map seems to be underinclusive anyway.

I believe those were the bases that were still under Hydra control, so that map could potentially play into matters as the remaining SHIELD loyalists try to fight back.

 

[Tom Hendricks]

 

[bbjeg]

^The DOG HYDRA leaves its mark again.

 

[DEWLine]

 

[Christopher]

How long before we see a KEEP CALM AND HAIL HYDRA one?

(Checks Google) Oh. Of course.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'm posting this anyway

 

[DEWLine]

Which is the sort of thing I was responding to over on Facebook.