A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

[Pemmer Harge]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

I'm reading this thread, and I'm starting to wonder if I was in a minority on a few things. For one, I like the characters (especially Ivanova, and was sad when Christian left) even though there are a few issues I have here or there. I thought the chemistry between Garibaldi and Sinclair was pretty good, and really liked the chemistry between Christian and Boxlietner.

Also, while some things didn't work in the show, I thought for the most part, things were really tight and well rounded. A Problem with having many writers is arcs start to lose focus. This is a problem I had with BSG (Among other things, since I think it's one of the most overrated shows in the last decade but that's a different topic). With B5, having one mind almost write the entire story, it kept things simple and straight to the point. However, one thing I am starting to notice from Seasons 1-2 and 3-5 is that even though the station was 5 miles long, it felt very short. At least the first two seasons gave us some scope on daily life on the station, something that was ignored later on.

Still, after getting into this show last year and getting the DVDs and currently watching Season 4, I really do like it, and consider it one of the best shows ever.

Ditto to most of this, although I've yet to sample BSG. I've always really liked the characters on B5 (though Zack doesn't have much character development and it took me a while to warm up to Lyta) and I think the show did a good job on selling most of them to the audience early on. It also handled departures and new arrivals pretty well, although when Claudia Christian left after Season 4 she did leave something of a hole. The relationship between Sheridan and Ivanova was definitely something I missed once it was gone.

I personally prefer this show to anything in the Star Trek franchise by quite a wide margin.

That said, The Gathering is probably one of the worst episodes. The show improves by an almost ridiculous amount.

 

[Harvey]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

And that was the heavily re-written version of the script, too. But I'm not big on the first season, which basically comes down to six episodes that really matter and a lot of mediocre universe-building (which, in retrospect, has a little more value, but not a lot more). IMO.

Oh, there were seven or eight good episodes - stories only "matter" if they're good, not because they fit into and advance some kind of "arc." It doesn't help that the metastory in B5 was mediocre, derivative and ended in a sham climax ("Get out of our galaxy!").

Oh, I wouldn't disagree. I felt the arc you refer to didn't end properly (though I can forgive one stupid line, as it is in a sea of thousands). A few of my favorite episodes of the series are, indeed, standalones. But most of the standalones in the first season are terrible, and as such, don't matter much. Except as an academic exercise illustrating how to waste William Sanderson and David Warner at the same time.

 

[Hyperspace05]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

Geez, people... How hard it is to avoid discussing spoilers???

 

[Seven of Five]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

Bloody hell, I'm swimming in posts! :lol

Originally posted by TheGodBen:

The Gathering (**½)

The epic series Babylon 5, from the epic genre writer J. Michael Straczynski, begins with an epic tale where the fate of ... a puppet is at stake.

The plot isn't that interesting, it's a typical whodunnit story involving shape-shifting and telepaths, the sort of safe, generic storytelling you'd see on Murder She Wrote. Okay, so maybe you're not going to see this sort of plot in Walker Texas Ranger, but for a science fiction show this episode feels very run of the mill. What sets the story apart is the political element involving the council deciding what to do with Sinclair, but even that is a bit simplistic for what is supposed to be a United Nations in space; it's just four people sitting at a desk voting in their own personal interests, they didn't even vote to create a committee to investigate whether they should hold a vote.

I agree. I missed The Gathering each time I did a run through of B5, and just went straight in at Midnight on the Firing Line, which is almost a second, much faster-paced pilot. When I finally got around to see The Gathering, I was a little bit scared.

The story definately plods, and the exposition throughout is painful at times. I don't think I need to watch it again, as I've said elsewhere in the thread. The score is right.

I'm still very confused about the Earth Alliance. It seems like Earth might be a military dictatorship, which I have no problem with from a story-telling point of view, I'm just unsure if that's the intention. The Earth ambassador to the council is a military officer rather than a diplomat, and when he is temporarily removed from command his XO on the station is appointed to the council in his place.

Nah, not a military dictatorship, which will become clearer in more focused episodes, like the next one. It does seem odd at first that the military would have a presence on a council, but Sinclair and the XO are trained. It's a neutral station for diplomacy.

Whenever I heard a particularly bad line in Voyager or Enterprise I'd check online for the script to make sure I have it right, then I'd take the piss out of it. But I can't find scripts for B5 online so I'm forced to get the DVD, find that scene, listen carefully and transcribe it myself. Well I'm too lazy to do that, so unless somebody knows of a shadowy site out of JMS's reach I'll be forced to work off my own memory, and after years of neglect my poor brain is struggling.

JMS released script books that were commercially available. They're a fantastic read, just prohibitavely expensive to pick up on eBay! It sucks, I know. Who mentioned Harlan Ellison?

I guess I should talk about the characters. Sinclair is interesting enough, his back-story is compelling and his personality isn't repugnant, so he's already a step-up on Archer.

Hee!

G'Kar looks like he could be interesting, so does Londo, Delenn not so much, not even when she wears her one ring to rule them all. Garibaldi? Meh, I couldn't possibly say. Takashima and Kyle seem quite dull, I'm glad they'll be fired for planting the coffee bean tree against regulations. (Does anybody else find it amusing that Takashima goes on a long rant about how it has been a long time since she has broken the rules only a minute after explaining that she broke the rules with the coffee bean tree?) But the stand-out character in this episode was Kosh! Wow, what an amazing performance, and he did it all without saying a word!

Yeah the more interesting characters grab you instantly. I love all the mystery of Kosh, and Sinclair. Ah, feeling all nostalgic for season 1 now! Takashima was a particularly useless character.

Spoiler: Takashima

It was sort of a shame how she left and her arc never got off the ground, it would have been interesting to see that blow up at the end of season 1. Though would we have had Claudia Christensen that way?

There wasn't as much gorilla bartender as I would have liked, but there was more than there ever was on DS9, so that's a big plus in favour of this show.

I thought Quark was somewhat gorilla-like?

I'm reneging on my decision not to have counters for this show...

Deep Swindle Nine: 1

Here's another: The first officer is a woman. This coincidence is too amazing to have happened by accident, females only make up 49.76% of the world's population, the odds are clearly against it.

Deep Swindle Nine: 2

In a similar vein, the doctor character on DS9 is a man. After TNG had two female doctors, what are the chances that they'd suddenly make their next doctor a man? It's too unlikely to be anything other than a deliberate steal.

Deep Swindle Nine: 3

This one will blow your mind: Sinclair. Sisko. Both begin with an S. But wait, there's more! Sinclair was a company which famously made the ZX-Spectrum computer, while Cisco is a company which makes networking equipment. What uses networking equipment? Computers!

Deep Swindle Nine: 4

Both station names end with a number. I was wary of this one at first because I used to believe that station names often have numbers at the end of them in Star Trek, such as Starbase 74 or Deep Space K-7. But then I saw this:

9 is just 5 with an extra line! Coincidence? I think not.

Deep Swindle Nine: 5

Finally, when the Vorlons arrived we saw B5 deploy its weapons. DS9 did a similar thing in The Way of the Warrior and Call to Arms. Check and mate.

Deep Swindle Nine: 6

(Though I say these things in jest, a part of me fears that these "arguments" might have seriously been used at some point during the flame wars.)

Glad you brought the funny.

Nice review. Now get watching!

And where is the KelKel avatar?

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

Yeah, JMS protects his copyrights. What would you expect, he and Harlan are good buddies.

There's a difference between copyright protection and what I feel JMS is doing in this case, which is using past works for further profit. It's his right to charge for them if he so pleases, and if somebody else was trying to profit from his works he should demand his money's worth, but that doesn't mean he has to pull down scripts which were once freely available to all so that the only way to access them is through purchasing them. I'd like to think that if I were a writer I wouldn't do that to my largely internet-focused fanbase, but I'm one of those degenerates that grew up with the internet and believes that everything should be free just so that I don't have to pay for it.

 

[stonester1]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

Which I totally disagree with. I find the sense of entitlement that comes from the internet generation dismaying, unbecoming and completely unrealistic.

JMS is a creator of ideas. If people wish to partake of them, they SHOULD have to pay, it's how he makes his living. I don't begrudge him that at all.

If you don't want to pay, don't pay. But don't act like JMS owes YOU his work for free. He doesn't.

 

[Skywalker]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

Geez, people... How hard it is to avoid discussing spoilers???

People tend to take over threads like this and turn it into a discussion of the whole series, when really we should only be discussing TheGodBen's reviews and the episode in question. It happened in that other B5 thread, that recent Farscape thread, and the Dune thread.

 

[chrisspringob]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

Geez, people... How hard it is to avoid discussing spoilers???

Agreed. People, the OP is only one episode in. Can't we restrict this to the stuff that he's already seen, and move other discussion to another thread? You may even be spoiling things by discussing which characters enter and exit the series at different times, as the TheGodBen doesn't necessarily know stuff like that.

 

[Lapis Exilis]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

As far as appeal goes, I think B5 is basically a cult show because you simply have to be willing to overlook a lot of problems, like acting, SFX, music and occasionally writing - be someone willing and inclined to appreciate the show for its broader scope and all that. Something like nuBSG isn't as good when it comes to the big picture and the answers to the big questions, but it's also rather superior in all of those other fiddly little details (which are far more important for any show on a day-to-day basis).

Heh. Great break down. Probably why, in the end, neither B-5 nor nuBSG really worked for me.

Balance, people. It's all about the balance.

 

[Reverend]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

I'm still very confused about the Earth Alliance. It seems like Earth might be a military dictatorship, which I have no problem with from a story-telling point of view, I'm just unsure if that's the intention. The Earth ambassador to the council is a military officer rather than a diplomat, and when he is temporarily removed from command his XO on the station is appointed to the council in his place.

Some of this will be revealed in due course, but I don't think it spoils anything to explain the basic set-up: -

The Earth Alliance is a "Multi-Tiered Democratic Republic", which basically means each member state within the Alliance (mostly old the superpowers or consortiums of what used to be third world countries) has a seat in the Earth Senate and a President ellected by popular vote.
Each member state (Russian Consortium, Chinese State, Central African Bloc, North American State, etc.) run their internal affairs more or less how they like and choose their representatives how they see fit, though within the bounds of EA laws.

B5, while in neutral space is an EA built station (with significant funding from the Minbari and to a lesser extent, the Centauri.) The "Babylon 5 Advisory Council" as you saw it is made up of the five "big powers" - Earth Alliance, Minbari Federation, Narn Regime, Centauri Republic & the Vorlon Empire - and the League of Non-Aligned Worlds. The League is made up of a dozen or so relatively minor powers and while each League world has an ambassador, the League itself get only one collective vote on the council, while the "Big Five" get one each. While many of these world have had diplomatic relations with each other in the past (the Vorlons being the most isolationist) it usually took the form of the odd trade agreement, single embassies and missions of the respective homeworlds or in a few cases, a declaration of war; this is the first time they've all had representatives in one place at the same time for a specific purpose.

The reason Sinclair is on the council and representing Earth is because B5 is under a military governorship. Not the same thing as a dictatorship because Sinclair's authority comes directly from the Earth Alliance President and on political and diplomatic matters is answerable to the Babylon 5 Senate Oversight Committee. All of which is separate from his authority and responsibility as an Earthforce officer.
It may seam a bit much for a mere Commander (lower in rank that a Starship Captain) and it is. The reasons behind this will be addressed down the road.

 

[RandyS]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

You can skip season 5, it's the definition of "tacked on".

Season 5 wasn't bad. Just the Byron stuff. That shit was the definition of bad.

 

[Neroon]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

A couple of points:

If the OP wishes discussion of spoilers to be verboten, he can request that. Until he does though, it's free and open, so please don't get too bent out of shape.

Secondly, GodBen please do NOT start up the "war without end" regarding the DS9/B5 "which came first". I appreciate your humorous take on it, but trust me... both side have good points and understandable perspectives, yet in the end it always ends badly and it profiteth nobody. And I will shut down any thread that tries to start it up again.

---

Regarding the show... as you all might expect, I found the special effects superb for the most part but then I watched it when it first aired. Compared to what aired at that time and that B5 used such a high degree of CGI - which was not being done by anyone else then - I liked the bravery and the distinct difference it brought. The music... another point where people will differ for certain.. I thoroughly loved and still love it, in part because it was different. It stood apart from Trek - the standard barer if you will - and that intrigued me.

The acting is definitely a mixed bag, but then I tend to not be as inspecting. Andreas Katsulas and Peter Jurasik were tremendous alone and together, and most people seem to agree with that. Katsulas especially so, could evoke tremendous power under all of that latex. The rest of the cast, well ... had its strong and weak points, good days and bad days. I suspect that's true of just about every show however. The only consistently weak points were the rather cartoonish "bad guys" you'd see for one episode. Again, though... that's going to be quite common me thinks. Boxleitner while not an A-list actor, is imho underrated. HIs turn in a S4 episode is especially effective. Furlan had moments of genius, but perhaps not as many as I'd like to have seen. I tend to feel that way about most of the primary cast. There are superb examples of this, but I will save that for when GodBen gets to those reviews.

Bottom line... I don't' consider any of these to be real weaknesses.

Difference is quite often good. Not always, but often enough that I will almost always give a show a chance if it's got a reputation for standing apart. B5 does that, and I do feel that's what makes it popular with such a devoted following. Cult or not, it's there and likely to stay there, adding to a great variety of choices for sci-fi fans.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

JMS is a creator of ideas. If people wish to partake of them, they SHOULD have to pay, it's how he makes his living. I don't begrudge him that at all.

If you don't want to pay, don't pay. But don't act like JMS owes YOU his work for free. He doesn't.

I never said he owes me anything, I just consider it to be a sign of disrespect towards his fanbase.

These review threads have earned me a very small fanbase of a half-dozen people that read them and reply with their own opinions infrequently, which isn't much but it is far more than I deserve and more than I thought I would ever have. Early into reviewing Enterprise somebody came into the thread and told me I should stop because I was rubbish, I wasn't saying anything interesting and my jokes weren't funny. I had no problem with the guy not liking me or my reviews, but coming into the thread to tell me to stop as I'm rubbish seemed rude, so I replied by saying that if he doesn't like the thread he doesn't have to read it, and he in turn replied with a long post of reasons why I should stop. A small group of my supporters came along and backed me up, and they said some very kind things about my reviews. I don't say this often, or at all, but I'm hugely appreciative of those guys, they're the reason why I made a picture of a topless Scott Bakula on the back of a pony, or why I spent an hour one night creating a fake website which probably only made one person chuckle a small bit.

If somebody told me that they'd give me money for writing this crap but in return I'd have to charge those guys to read it, I wouldn't do it. Not because I don't like money, I love the stuff, I'm quite the collector, but because I have enough respect for myself that I couldn't lower myself to choose money over the kindness of my peers.

But wave a million euro cheque in front of my face and I'd quickly change my mind. Screw self-respect and principles, I want that giant cheque!

 

[Lindley]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

As far as appeal goes, I think B5 is basically a cult show because you simply have to be willing to overlook a lot of problems, like acting, SFX, music and occasionally writing

Acting and writing I'll grant have their debatable points.

SFX----I don't consider this a "problem", merely indicative of the time. The SFX were cutting-edge when the show was made. "The Gathering" won a visual effects Emmy. If you extend the criticism to the entire production value it has a bit more merit; some of those plywood walls were a little too flimsy, and the early virtual sets certainly have issues.

And the music---not a problem at all. The music is terrific. Well, to be fair, season 1 had some issues in that regard, but after that it settled in nicely, and there's some fantastic scores down the road. Did you know that Babylon 5 has a complete orchestral score for every single episode? Not many series can claim that.

I mean, there's no way you can call music like this a weak point: link (Warning, this contains season 4 clips, but no spoilers if you keep your eyes closed).

 

[Harvey]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

Did you know that Babylon 5 has a complete orchestral score for every single episode? Not many series can claim that.

Really? Except for Star Trek, which was produced in a different era with different standards, and the final season of Enterprise (which saw its budget cut, and thus elected to use synthesized scores for some episodes), every episode of the Trek franchise has a complete orchestral score.

Franke was obviously allowed much more creative freedom in his scoring, though.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

As far as appeal goes, I think B5 is basically a cult show because you simply have to be willing to overlook a lot of problems, like acting, SFX, music and occasionally writing

Exactly so.

 

[Jan]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

Yeah, JMS protects his copyrights. What would you expect, he and Harlan are good buddies.

There's a difference between copyright protection and what I feel JMS is doing in this case, which is using past works for further profit. It's his right to charge for them if he so pleases, and if somebody else was trying to profit from his works he should demand his money's worth, but that doesn't mean he has to pull down scripts which were once freely available to all so that the only way to access them is through purchasing them. I'd like to think that if I were a writer I wouldn't do that to my largely internet-focused fanbase, but I'm one of those degenerates that grew up with the internet and believes that everything should be free just so that I don't have to pay for it.

I can tell you for certain that JMS' scripts were *never* freely available with his permission. Ever. They weren't pulled down when the script books were planned, they've always been pulled any time they were found.

Jan

 

[Mysterion]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

JMS is a creator of ideas. If people wish to partake of them, they SHOULD have to pay, it's how he makes his living. I don't begrudge him that at all.

If you don't want to pay, don't pay. But don't act like JMS owes YOU his work for free. He doesn't.

I never said he owes me anything, I just consider it to be a sign of disrespect towards his fanbase.

What an utter load of crap.

The nerve of a professional writer to actually expect to be compensated for the effort he or she has put forth and not just give it away to the fans. Wow. How disrespectful!

How about some respect to the folks who create all this entertainment and the effort they put forth doing so? Nope, it sohuld all be on the net so it can be downloaded ad infinitum for free. Why? Because we're the fans, that's why. To actually expect us to pay for any of it, why that would be disrespectful.

I have no idea what you do to make a living, but I am guessing you aren't going to go and do whatever it is for free just because someone likes it are you? Or if you are, you should ask to see your boss first thing tomorrow morning ans tell him you won't be needing those paychecks anymore. I'm sure he'll appreciate it.

Gotta side with Harlan Ellison on this one when he says "Pay the writer!"

 

[tomalak301]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

A couple of points:

If the OP wishes discussion of spoilers to be verboten, he can request that. Until he does though, it's free and open, so please don't get too bent out of shape.

When I wrote my thing, I was trying to avoid spoilers. One thing that I got spoiled on when I was watching the show was Christian leaving at the end of the 4th season. That really isn't a spoiler because A) It aired 15 or so years ago, and B) It's ambiguous enough to not reveal anything big. I think that was the only thing I mentioned in terms of spoiler. I understand the need to not be spoiled (Hey, I just did one of these threads, still doing it kinda during my second watching, and I was quite happy to not be spoiled) but since TheGodBen has only watched The Gathering, it's not really much to go on to have a valid conversation, especially since unlike mine, there are actually some posters here who bring up valid points of the issues with the show.

 

[stonester1]

Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5

JMS is a creator of ideas. If people wish to partake of them, they SHOULD have to pay, it's how he makes his living. I don't begrudge him that at all.

If you don't want to pay, don't pay. But don't act like JMS owes YOU his work for free. He doesn't.

I never said he owes me anything, I just consider it to be a sign of disrespect towards his fanbase.

These review threads have earned me a very small fanbase of a half-dozen people that read them and reply with their own opinions infrequently, which isn't much but it is far more than I deserve and more than I thought I would ever have. Early into reviewing Enterprise somebody came into the thread and told me I should stop because I was rubbish, I wasn't saying anything interesting and my jokes weren't funny.

I've seen that kind of thing a few times around here. My response? Fuck 'em. They don't like it, they don't have to read. They think they can do better, by all means, STFU and demonstrate.

But no one has to be a jackass and come in and tear up someone's reviews just because they are an anonymous, otherwise powerless coward on an internet site.

With you, brother. Carry on and review away.

BUT...if JMS wants you to pay for consuming his stuff, you need to pay the man.