Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

[Reverend]

You mean no issue besides getting smacked in the jaw my Mew-mew? It's totally clear that the sucker punch was just some good humoured payback for earlier. He even smirks. Obviously the Hulk and Banner are more in tune and thus more focused, in control and aware than when he's induced into a blind rage.

One thing that is still a bit of a mystery is how Banner changes back after he Hulks out by choice. Normally Hulk just seems to keep going until he's exhausted and/or he's gotten away from whomever is attacking him.

Have the comics ever covered this, or are there no specific rules aside from the laws of plot convenience?

 

[Mister Fandango]

And that was the Hulk getting payback, not Banner. Which is the point. They are two different individuals when it comes down to it. They share a body and experiences, but the Hulk is not Banner, and vice versa. Though they can both influence the other to some degree in certain circumstances.

Also, how does the Hulk smirking mean it's not the Hulk? You lost me with that bizarre logic (though I'm starting to get used to that).

 

[Kemaiku]

Can we please just call it Mjolnir and not bring up that...other name. Damnit Darcy.

 

[Shawnster]

Why is May still alive after that beating Lorelei gave her? Lorelei gave that guy a single wack that knocked him into the car and over, yet pulled her punches with May? Yes, I know we can't kill the main characters off like that, especially with what we saw at the end with May, but still...

 

[Reverend]

And that was the Hulk getting payback, not Banner. Which is the point. They are two different individuals when it comes down to it. They share a body and experiences, but the Hulk is not Banner, and vice versa. Though they can both influence the other to some degree in certain circumstances.

Also, how does the Hulk smirking mean it's not the Hulk? You lost me with that bizarre logic (though I'm starting to get used to that).

It depends on how you're defining "the Hulk" as an individual. You seem to think that he's a totally separate entity that takes Banner's place. Personally, I'd always gotten the impression that he's a manifestation of Banner's "id" (for lack of a better term.) All instinct and rage, but it's still Banner under all that. He says he remembers what it's like being the Hulk, we see him relive the experiences in dreams and PTSD-like flashbacks.

My point is a raw manifestation of pure rage doesn't have a sense of humour, let alone higher reasoning or even cogent thought. He smirked, he quipped at Loki and he saved Stark. These aren't the actions of a mindless beast. In this state, it's Banner's personality that's in the driver's seat.

 

[theenglish]

And that was the Hulk getting payback, not Banner. Which is the point. They are two different individuals when it comes down to it. They share a body and experiences, but the Hulk is not Banner, and vice versa. Though they can both influence the other to some degree in certain circumstances.

Also, how does the Hulk smirking mean it's not the Hulk? You lost me with that bizarre logic (though I'm starting to get used to that).

It depends on how you're defining "the Hulk" as an individual. You seem to think that he's a totally separate entity that takes Banner's place. Personally, I'd always gotten the impression that he's a manifestation of Banner's "id" (for lack of a better term.) All instinct and rage, but it's still Banner under all that. He says he remembers what it's like being the Hulk, we see him relive the experiences in dreams and PTSD-like flashbacks.

My point is a raw manifestation of pure rage doesn't have a sense of humour, let alone higher reasoning or even cogent thought. He smirked, he quipped at Loki and he saved Stark. These aren't the actions of a mindless beast. In this state, it's Banner's personality that's in the driver's seat.

Reverend, I think that you are correct. That was the point at the end of the movie. In allegorical terms, it is a lot like the rages and emotions that scare us and we try to control. Like Captain Kirk in The Enemy Within, Banner learns to accept this side of him by the end of the movie. Hulk is not a completely different entity than Banner but more the "tough guy" version of him. At the end, we clearly see him adopting the team as his friends and playfully roughhousing with Thor.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Why is May still alive after that beating Lorelei gave her? Lorelei gave that guy a single wack that knocked him into the car and over, yet pulled her punches with May? Yes, I know we can't kill the main characters off like that, especially with what we saw at the end with May, but still...

There's a lot of that in comic books and in action movies and TV. Combine the two and it just has to be expected.

 

[Reverend]

And that was the Hulk getting payback, not Banner. Which is the point. They are two different individuals when it comes down to it. They share a body and experiences, but the Hulk is not Banner, and vice versa. Though they can both influence the other to some degree in certain circumstances.

Also, how does the Hulk smirking mean it's not the Hulk? You lost me with that bizarre logic (though I'm starting to get used to that).

It depends on how you're defining "the Hulk" as an individual. You seem to think that he's a totally separate entity that takes Banner's place. Personally, I'd always gotten the impression that he's a manifestation of Banner's "id" (for lack of a better term.) All instinct and rage, but it's still Banner under all that. He says he remembers what it's like being the Hulk, we see him relive the experiences in dreams and PTSD-like flashbacks.

My point is a raw manifestation of pure rage doesn't have a sense of humour, let alone higher reasoning or even cogent thought. He smirked, he quipped at Loki and he saved Stark. These aren't the actions of a mindless beast. In this state, it's Banner's personality that's in the driver's seat.

Reverend, I think that you are correct. That was the point at the end of the movie. In allegorical terms, it is a lot like the rages and emotions that scare us and we try to control. Like Captain Kirk in The Enemy Within, Banner learns to accept this side of him by the end of the movie. Hulk is not a completely different entity than Banner but more the "tough guy" version of him. At the end, we clearly see him adopting the team as his friends and playfully roughhousing with Thor.

If memory serves, Stan Lee has made no bones over the years about the fact that Hulk was very much inspired by 'Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde'. One of the core themes of that piece is that Mr. Hyde *is* Dr. Jekyll with all social morays and inhibitions removed. Just like with Banner, Hulk--"the other guy" as he puts it-- is not some other entity taking over his body, it's Banner with all higher reasoning disconnected and with the base instinctual emotional drives turned up to eleven.

Why is May still alive after that beating Lorelei gave her? Lorelei gave that guy a single wack that knocked him into the car and over, yet pulled her punches with May? Yes, I know we can't kill the main characters off like that, especially with what we saw at the end with May, but still...

There's a lot of that in comic books and in action movies and TV. Combine the two and it just has to be expected.

Yeah, it's a dramatic conceit. You could equally say that Sif didn't need to fight those bikers when nothing they could do would even slow her down. She could literally have just walked right through them without lifting a finger or breaking stride.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I prefer the Peter David explanation for the Green Hulk... 9 year old Banner watched his father murder his mother and felt guilty that he couldn't stop the crime unfolding.

I think the Grey Hulk was about girls at college laughing at his pitiful sexual technique.

Which would explain why a guy in his 30s was dating a 16 year old virgin in Hulk #1 1962.

 

[theenglish]

I prefer the Peter David explanation for the Green Hulk... 9 year old Banner watched his father murder his mother and felt guilty that he couldn't stop the crime unfolding.

I think the Grey Hulk was about girls at college laughing at his pitiful sexual technique.

Which would explain why a guy in his 30s was dating a 16 year old virgin in Hulk #1 1962.

In 1962 this was perfectly acceptable. The Dick Van Dyke show had a huge age gap between him and Mary Tyler Moore.

 

[Velocity]

eleven years, but I never thought it looked obvious on the show. Now, Buddy and Laura would have been creepy.

 

[Guy Gardener]

This is mostly because back then woman over 25 were unsightly and women over 30 need to be locked away from the impressionable public.

In 1961 when the Dick VanDyke Show started, Dick was 36 and Mary was 25, which is not an accurate indicator of how old their characters where.

They were both adults, unless Mary's character had a 16 year old son, that should have been fine.

(Back to Hulk comics.)

Betty was probably 20-something since she wasn't in school, but even if she was 20 something, she should have been finishing off college, so why would Bruce go after a woman that didn't go to college, dropped out of college or maybe even dropped out of Hiighschool?

Dropping out usually means that the drop outter is having more fun than studying and thus far more experienced than Bruce, unless they're stupid... Or unless Thadeus decided that someone who was just going to be married off to make babies didn't need a college education and he wouldn't pay for one since it was a galactic waste of HIS money.

(Or she was a Genius who graduated college at 12?)

My point being is that Bruce (if Peter David is right about the Gray Hulk.) was looking for a sexual and mental inferior to make himself feel better and less put upon by the emotionally stable around him subtly creating an atmosphere of hostility (in his mind.).

Meanwhile if Pete was right about the Green Hulk then Bruce was looking for some one who would not die and he would not kill, and more importantly someone who he could save how he could not save his mother, which unfortunately meant that he had to be more controlling than his father ever was, that he may have been subconsciously endangering the young woman, pushing her into situations that were stupidly risky just to save Betty Ross and chalk up some sort of mental victory in his head.

 

[theenglish]

One last aside, in the series Moore was much younger than Dyke and they got married when she was under age of consent. This was the plot of one of the episodes and it wasn't even considered controversial at the time.

As for Hulk, it seems to me that most of the Marvel nerdy guys married/dated much younger women, except for Peter Parker who liked them older.

Reed, Hank, and Bruce all had much younger significant others.

 

[Guy Gardener]

There were no women younger than Peter Parker Year One.

(Girls yes, women no.)

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I'm posting this here instead of the Guardians of the Galaxy thread because it's about blue Krees. It's also from the Marvel special preempting Agents of SHIELD this week. They've released some screenshots of Guardians of the Galaxy. Among them, a clear look at Ronan the Accuser that shows he is, in fact, blue. It's really hard to tell in the lighting, but I think he's a brighter blue. None of the screencaps have any context, but there's theoretically spoilers:

First look at Glenn Close, new look at Ronan the Accuser and the Collector

 

[Guy Gardener]

You shouldn't say Krees.

Kree is the plural of Kree.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

^ I'm glad you ironed out the Krees situation.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Just like Legos and Sheeps.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Have you noticed that Americans (on TV) only say Legos?

They don't have a singular, and their plural is wrong.

Silly, silly Americans.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

You shouldn't say Krees.

Kree is the plural of Kree.

I debated that, but didn't know a clear answer so I just went with it. I suppose I could also have been talking about the people generally, in which case it would be singular (or, more accurately, adjectival). But not a huge deal either way.

Actually, on reflection, my post was almost completely superfluous because Lady Sif settled the issue of whether there are blue Kree in this universe in spite of Korath the Pursuer, so it isn't even an open question.