TBBS and treatment of women

[Nerys Ghemor]

just a request for a little more consideration, respect, and thoughtfulness.

This and I don't think it is too much to ask for...some people come here to get away from things and explore their interests... unfortunately these things have been lacking here...it didn't use to be as bad as it is now...outside of TNZ.

Which of course raises the perennial point of why if people cannot behave according to the minimal rules of TNZ, they are allowed to continue on the rest of the board where there are more rules. But that's another thread entirely.

Are you saying you've never made similar comments about Brad Pitt, or Daniel Radcliffe or any other male celebrity.

That's exactly what I'm saying. You'll notice I worded my post so that it applies to both genders, as it should apply to both genders.

Really? Cuz I'd definitely do Brad Pitt, wheras Daniel Radcliffe does nothing for me. He's a cute kid, but ... he's a kid.

This isn't helping, IMHO. I don't think this kind of stuff does any good regardless of what gender is saying it to who. This just proves that people of both sexes are capable of this kind of stuff.

While we're at it; this is a global board so I find it offensive that anyone who isn't American is treated like a second class citizen.

this. x1000

i particularly hate the rule that you can't post images that 'you would find in a magazine you need ID for' (which was to ban topless/sideboob/cleavage images) when in the UK you can EASILY buy newspapers with bare boobs on page 3 WITH NO ID. and that's without even getting into the likes of Loaded, Front, Zoo or Nuts which do NOT have an age restriction on them and contain plenty of near naked or naked women.

it's an ethnocentrically worded rule.

and i don't believe any woman who says bare male torsos are OK and bare female torsos aren't merely because men have no jubblies. i've read plenty of posts on here by women dribbling over a man's chest. so that is just ludicrous.

You're on private property, and if the board owners decide they want to run it according to American rules, then consider yourself to be stepping into American territory when you come here. This is not a democracy; it's a mod-ocracy. If I were on a forum run by people in an Islamic country, then I would respect the rules or leave if I couldn't handle it. It would be their right to run the board as they see fit. Same difference.



As for another point, to do with the original thread...I definitely don't care for the fact that there's a double standard as to sexual promiscuity and women: the idea that "slut" or "tramp" is such a common insult to women but you do not see the same towards men (at least not to the same extent).

Now my personal preference would be that promiscuity would be considered equally undesirable for both sexes. I know I find it a revolting characteristic regardless of whether we're talking about men or women; that would end any romantic interest I might have in a man. But since I realize most people would not come around to that opinion, I would at least hope it would not be the default insult here towards women or men, and just not be brought up.

 

[nevermore]

So, there appear to be two arguments here that have been conflated.

1) Problem: Creepy posters who cross a reasonable line and skeeve people out.

Solution:

Right click, save, post when appropriate.


2) Problem: Some people find certain words offensive.

Solution*:

Don't go out of your way to offend people, and don't go out of your way to find offense. Don't assume you know everyone's intent, especially on the internet. Don't assume that how you interpret meaning is the same as everyone else.

Or as Bill and Ted said: Be Excellent to Each Other.

Also, I agree with the following:

I am not very sensitive (or sympathetic) when it comes to people reading words they don't like, or hearing words they don't like. It seems like you give the speaker a lot of power over your emotional state.

*Not applicable in TNZ, thankfully.

 

[Kestra]

This and I don't think it is too much to ask for...some people come here to get away from things and explore their interests... unfortunately these things have been lacking here...it didn't use to be as bad as it is now...outside of TNZ.

Which of course raises the perennial point of why if people cannot behave according to the minimal rules of TNZ, they are allowed to continue on the rest of the board where there are more rules. But that's another thread entirely.

I'm not sure if I'm reading you correctly, but I just wanted to say that the vast majority of people who post in TNZ and Misc have no problems following the rules in either place. Also seriously, I'm about as soft as they come and I haven't been eaten alive in TNZ yet.

 

[SiorX]

T'Bonz's avatar is racier than that... but I don't think she was saying that every little thing having to do with women is qualified by But is she hot?

I have nothing against that avatar... it is quite nice. But it is a pose highlighting a woman's chest by someone worried that everyone is judging women by But is she hot?

I don't quite know what to do with this. It's Catwoman. She's a jazz-loving, cat-mad master thief. One time she stole the Batmobile by taking the batteries out of Bruce's remote control. She and her cat are plotting crime.

I'm kinda bizarred by your rhetorical manoeuvre here. My contention that threads about women get derailed by judgements on their hotness is invalid because my avatar's too hot? Could somebody maybe photoshop me some more debate-appropriate clothes for my icon?

There'll be a small prize for the fanciest jacket.

 

[Jenee]

Are you saying you've never made similar comments about Brad Pitt, or Daniel Radcliffe or any other male celebrity.

That's exactly what I'm saying. You'll notice I worded my post so that it applies to both genders, as it should apply to both genders.

Really? Cuz I'd definitely do Brad Pitt, wheras Daniel Radcliffe does nothing for me. He's a cute kid, but ... he's a kid.

This isn't helping, IMHO. I don't think this kind of stuff does any good regardless of what gender is saying it to who. This just proves that people of both sexes are capable of this kind of stuff.

That's exactly my point. Women get offended about stuff when they engage in exactly the same behavior.

 

[Tora Ziyal]

Really? Cuz I'd definitely do Brad Pitt, wheras Daniel Radcliffe does nothing for me. He's a cute kid, but ... he's a kid.

This isn't helping, IMHO. I don't think this kind of stuff does any good regardless of what gender is saying it to who. This just proves that people of both sexes are capable of this kind of stuff.

That's exactly my point. Women get offended about stuff when they engage in exactly the same behavior.

Some women are offended. And some women "engage in exactly the same behavior". It's not necessarily the same women in both groups.

 

[The Boy Who Cried Worf]

just a request for a little more consideration, respect, and thoughtfulness.

This and I don't think it is too much to ask for...some people come here to get away from things and explore their interests... unfortunately these things have been lacking here...it didn't use to be as bad as it is now...outside of TNZ.

Which of course raises the perennial point of why if people cannot behave according to the minimal rules of TNZ, they are allowed to continue on the rest of the board where there are more rules. But that's another thread entirely.





This isn't helping, IMHO. I don't think this kind of stuff does any good regardless of what gender is saying it to who. This just proves that people of both sexes are capable of this kind of stuff.

While we're at it; this is a global board so I find it offensive that anyone who isn't American is treated like a second class citizen.

this. x1000

i particularly hate the rule that you can't post images that 'you would find in a magazine you need ID for' (which was to ban topless/sideboob/cleavage images) when in the UK you can EASILY buy newspapers with bare boobs on page 3 WITH NO ID. and that's without even getting into the likes of Loaded, Front, Zoo or Nuts which do NOT have an age restriction on them and contain plenty of near naked or naked women.

it's an ethnocentrically worded rule.

and i don't believe any woman who says bare male torsos are OK and bare female torsos aren't merely because men have no jubblies. i've read plenty of posts on here by women dribbling over a man's chest. so that is just ludicrous.

You're on private property, and if the board owners decide they want to run it according to American rules, then consider yourself to be stepping into American territory when you come here. This is not a democracy; it's a mod-ocracy. If I were on a forum run by people in an Islamic country, then I would respect the rules or leave if I couldn't handle it. It would be their right to run the board as they see fit. Same difference.

Who does own the TrekBBS? I always thought it was a consortium of Arab, Japanese, and European billionaires and the only American involvement was through the mafia.

 

[T'Bonz]

My avatar is racy?

 

[Holdfast]

Who does own the TrekBBS? I always thought it was a consortium of Arab, Japanese, and European billionaires and the only American involvement was through the mafia.

Sovereign Wealth Fund.

(Romulan, primarily)

 

[Hunter X]

My avatar is racy?

It's red-headed and authoritative. You've been shepherding nerds for decades now, surely you've figured out this part of the psychology by now?

 

[Locutus of Bored]

My avatar is racy?

Pixelated sea foam green go-go boots get me all hot and bothered.

 

[iguana_tonante]

So - here is my solution. If you think someone is crossing the line, hit the mod notify (even if the post is not directly aimed at you.)

This is probably the only sensible thing we can do. We can't censor thoughts or intent, but at the same time we can notify problematic posts and have the staff deal with them in whatever way they find appropriate, instead of just cringing and then shrug it off because "it's not my problem".

I have recently come to the opinion that everything the iguanodon says is 99.9% pure truth, and this post has done nothing to change my opinion.

That's a popular and widely-held opinion. Quite rightfully so, if I may add.

More seriously, it's a complicated issue, so I have to say I'm not sure how I feel about this. I'm anything but a delicate flower, but even I found myself cringing at some of the stuff I've seen posted around here. So I definitely understand why people at the receiving end of it would find it unsettling. At the same time, taking into account different cultures and attitudes, I'm aware I might have posted something that made people uncomfortable one time or the other, even if I never had any intent of doing so, so who am I to judge? If anything, this thread made me think about how sexism is ingrained in our culture, so much that sometimes we may be blind to it. A sobering, if obvious, thought.

On one hand, ignoring people's concerns would be unfair and callous to the least; on the other, censoring words and thoughts will be impossible, unenforceable, and not to mention unhealthy. I don't have any solution, and I'm not sure there is a solution, other than everybody developing good taste overnight. Good luck with that. So we have to deal with it on a case-by-case scenario, and work with the Mods to make this place a welcoming place for both guys and gals (I won't say "for all people", because I reserve the right to treat like shit people who deserve it, without any limitation on sex, age, race or creed). As usual, nevermore zeroed on it with her no-nonsense attitude: act swiftly and efficiently to stop creepy or harassing behaviours; don't get bent out of shape one way or the other; and especially don't overthink this whole issue. Focus on what we can and will do, not on what we can't or won't.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Which of course raises the perennial point of why if people cannot behave according to the minimal rules of TNZ, they are allowed to continue on the rest of the board where there are more rules. But that's another thread entirely.

How many times has this been a problem? I can think of only three people in the past few years who were bounced from TNZ and remained to post on the rest of the board, and soon enough they either got bored because of the stricter rule-set outside of TNZ impeding their trolling, or they accumulated enough warnings and drew enough attention to themselves that they were permabanned, so the system worked. TNZ trolls (which aren't as commonplace as you seem to think) usually remain exclusive to TNZ anyway and don't care for the rest of the board, and if they do they're as subject to the rules as anyone else out here, so it's really a non-issue except for the mods.

 

[Servo]

What really illustrates the fact that these threads do nothing to change people's attitudes, is the number of people in Miss Chicken's thread who's first thought when offered a working Holodeck is to use it to fuck virtual replicas of actresses they think are hot.

Because there's nothing creepy or weird about making a replica of a real person so you can fuck it.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Yes, "as a woman." This is what makes me angry. I've given a number of examples of how my experience with women in the real world is at odds with attitudes on TrekBBS and it's like I'm typing in invisible ink. You do not speak for all women; in fact, the women I've known and worked with have quite different opinions-- go back and see my anecdote regarding Midwifery staff meetings that you neglected to quote before. In fact, I'll add an epilogue. One time, one of the Midwives came to my office and asked if they made me uncomfortable with the way they talked about men and sex. I told her it did not. Why? Because I'm a grown up.

Because you're a grown up who doesn't have to live in a world where every single thing a member of your gender does is constantly weighed in the balance against his perceived fuckability.

Capable sportswoman. But is she hot? Actor in a sci-fi show. But is she hot? Upstanding politician on your side. But is she hot? Batshit politician on the other side. But is she hot? Defendent in a murder trial. But is she hot? Leader of a bizarre cult devoted to lobster-worship. But is she hot?

There's pretty much nowhere you can go to get away from it. It would be fine and dandy if we could all talk about sex and sexual attraction like grown ups. But the way public chatter about sex works in the here and now is not the same for men and women. It just isn't. Even if there are pockets where it goes the other way, like with your midwifes.

I'm not trying to say anything here about what you ought or ought not to do as a mod. Just that public discourse on sex has different strings attached for different demographics, and gender is a factor in that. Sometimes that's a relevant factor to consider.

I think you're overstating it. In all of those examples you gave, the people are hardly judged solely by their looks; if so they'd be on a motorcycle calendar, rather than competing in sports or running for office or... uh... murdering people. Or whatever.

There is a difference between sexuality and sexism.
What you do or think regarding sex and the birds and the bees in the comfort of your own home and/or relationship is your own business and nobody can tell you anything about it.
It is when somebody gets offended or feels insulted or objectified by the "improper" use of sexual terms, images, innuendos and the such that a problem occurs. And this I believe is the problem we are trying to address here.

Well, my whole point is that sexuality is not sexism. The problem I see here is that some people here, both male and female, do see sexuality as sexism. Somehow a picture of a pretty or scantily clad or otherwise sexual photo of a woman is sexist and hostile towards women (despite the fact that the subject of the photo actually is a woman, and obviously comfortable with her sexuality).

This above comment that you made in response to my mentioning to ROBERT in his opening statement hits the nail on the head.

Robert was talking about the lack of respect he sees on the board, and he even mentioned various words he finds offensive.

I, a woman, brought it up to him that instead of using the word "breasts" he said "tits" bouncing. NOWHERE did i say it creates a hostile environment. WHAT I SAID was that i found it rather odd that he use that word in a thread about respect. That was what i said.

Pardon me if I misunderstood or misrepresented what you Posted; it was just my cry of despair at the ridiculous extremes I'm seeing here.

Instead of LISTENING to me, you insult me by proxy.

I didn't insult you.

And by the way. I am a woman and i have NEVER EVER used the word "TITS" in a conversation. EVER. But, it sounds like you know "HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF WOMEN" who do. So who am i to ponder whether or not you have that fact right or not?

Unfortunately, I only know dozens of millions of women, but I have heard many of them use the word "tits." I even heard my Mother use the word once, in a whisper (my Sister prefers the term "rack," but she doesn't whisper). As for my total estimate, considering the number of women residing in Western civilization, as well as other parts of the world likely to adopt the term (e.g. Japan), I would say it's likely to be correct.

Maybe it's the exposed arm/shoulder. Scandalous.

Maybe it's the pussy.

This isn't helping, IMHO. I don't think this kind of stuff does any good regardless of what gender is saying it to who. This just proves that people of both sexes are capable of this kind of stuff.

You say that as if it's a bad thing. My point is that there's nothing wrong with women or men having a little fun with sexuality.

That's exactly my point. Women get offended about stuff when they engage in exactly the same behavior.

That's the point I tried to make earlier when I said that the definition of chauvinism is when men talk about women the same way women talk about men.

 

[Shaw]

Could somebody maybe photoshop me some more debate-appropriate clothes for my icon?

Sure, how about this...

That should protect your virtue.

 

[Bears Discover Fire]

Could somebody maybe photoshop me some more debate-appropriate clothes for my icon?

Sure, how about this...

That should protect your virtue.

Unacceptable. The cat's nudity is still implied.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

What really illustrates the fact that these threads do nothing to change people's attitudes, is the number of people in Miss Chicken's thread who's first thought when offered a working Holodeck is to use it to fuck virtual replicas of actresses they think are hot.

Because there's nothing creepy or weird about making a replica of a real person so you can fuck it.

Nope...nothing creepy or weird at ALL about THAT!

Who cares if it's the 24th century equivalent of a blow-up doll?

As for the original topic, this sort of thing has been going on around here since day 1. And for the most part, I don't see it as that huge of a problem. People are who they are, regardless of what they do or don't say (or do or don't post). And in truth, I'd rather know who I'm dealing with than not. I mean, if a guy acts like a pig when it comes to women a good bit of the time...I just make a mental note about it and pretty much avoid them. You can't change who they are - not even in real life, let along on an internet BBS. But you can observe the men around you and pick and choose which ones you will trust, and which ones you won't, which ones you are interested in developing friendships with, and which ones you aren't, based on their observable behavior. The thing is, you can't do that if the pigs are forced to walk on eggshells. So I'd rather they just be who they are...and I'd then know who they are and be done with them.

Also, I don't think we should become humorless buzzkills over sexuality either...and especially not in the name of yet another exhausting exercise in political correctness. I'm all for a bit of playing around - it's healthy, in fact, I'd argue.

However....a little harmless fun is one thing - ONE 'babe' thread in Gen TV & Media, for example, is harmless enough - and easily avoided if you don't want to watch 'boys be boys'.

But sometimes around here, the bandwagon effect has been known to take hold...and it has gotten out of hand. As I said, one 'babe' thread is harmless enough - but 8 of them going at once, clogging up the entire first page of that forum (which has happened, by the way) IS more than a bit excessive and a clear sign that sanity needs to be restored, post haste.

I guess what I'm saying is, everything...in moderation.

 

[Jenee]

This isn't helping, IMHO. I don't think this kind of stuff does any good regardless of what gender is saying it to who. This just proves that people of both sexes are capable of this kind of stuff.

That's exactly my point. Women get offended about stuff when they engage in exactly the same behavior.

Some women are offended. And some women "engage in exactly the same behavior". It's not necessarily the same women in both groups.

Are you suggesting that we're all different and that everyone should be allowed to be who they are?

Isn't that what many women here are arguing against? Or is it only the men who are not allowed to be who they are?

 

[ichab]

So, there appear to be two arguments here that have been conflated.

1) Problem: Creepy posters who cross a reasonable line and skeeve people out.

Solution:

Right click, save, post when appropriate.


2) Problem: Some people find certain words offensive.

Solution*:

Don't go out of your way to offend people, and don't go out of your way to find offense. Don't assume you know everyone's intent, especially on the internet. Don't assume that how you interpret meaning is the same as everyone else.

Or as Bill and Ted said: Be Excellent to Each Other.

Also, I agree with the following:

I am not very sensitive (or sympathetic) when it comes to people reading words they don't like, or hearing words they don't like. It seems like you give the speaker a lot of power over your emotional state.

*Not applicable in TNZ, thankfully.

Well stated.