TBBS and treatment of women

[Shaw]

Capable sportswoman. But is she hot? Actor in a sci-fi show. But is she hot? Upstanding politician on your side. But is she hot? Batshit politician on the other side. But is she hot? Defendent in a murder trial. But is she hot? Leader of a bizarre cult devoted to lobster-worship. But is she hot?

Sorry, but it is hard to take this seriously considering your avatar.

You should change it to something that doesn't contribute to the problems you are pointing out.

... if you do want to be taken seriously.

I know I'll get bashed for this, and I'm prepared for that, but I do think it important to point out it would be helpful to allow women to post their feelings without having a mod come along and criticise their opinion ad nauseam with a foot long post. A response and difference of opinion is fine, after all, that's what dialogue is, but I do think some of what's been happening to posters here is overkill. I know that is not against board rules at all, but it is as though there is a want to shut these women up by embarrassing and ridiculing them because what they are saying is not welcome.

Are you suggesting that because some mods took exception to your comments, they are sexist simply because you're a female poster? Am I getting that right?

And that they shouldn't speak up for themselves or their views because they are mods?

I may have missed something here, but I don't see any of the mods/admins abusing their position/powers as mods/admins in this discussion.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I know I'll get bashed for this, and I'm prepared for that, but I do think it important to point out it would be helpful to allow women to post their feelings without having a mod come along and criticise their opinion ad nauseam with a foot long post. A response and difference of opinion is fine, after all, that's what dialogue is, but I do think some of what's been happening to posters here is overkill. I know that is not against board rules at all, but it is as though there is a want to shut these women up by embarrassing and ridiculing them because what they are saying is not welcome.

There are those who are speaking up about this for the first time, and no doubt still more reading who will think twice about posting because of the veiled intimidation those who have spoken so far are receiving. I don't see a problem when it is posters among themselves, but when a mod weighs in to ridicule a member, I don't think that's the best way to proceed. I will concede this may not be deliberate and merely a posting style, but it does have an effect.

Yes, I'm sure it would be much simpler for you to fabricate events and accuse the mods of sexism or apathy if we simply sat things out. Sorry, I'm all for discussion of these issues, but you don't get a free pass for repeatedly posting flat out lies and misrepresentations of people's opinions. If you want to talk about the situation here, that's fine, but you are way out of line to think you can speak for me or anyone else.

The intimidation comment is especially ironic seeing as how you're essentially bullying people into not challenging your false accusations while playing the victim. I wasn't even involved in this thread yet and you had already brought me into it by accusing us of being sexist, of doing nothing to address this problem, and of not caring about it. And you still refused to apologize or even revise your comments, instead adding more lies and more fuel to the fire of the blame game tangent you created in this discussion, which was not Robert's intent in starting it the thread.

Why are you allowed free reign to ridicule and embarrass me (since I'm the newest mod who does nothing and was only picked because I'm everyone's friend or some such nonsense according to you) and the other mods? Where have I made false accusations against you or done anything other than challenge the comments you've made in this very thread?

Don't try to portray yourself as participating in this discussion on the same level as the other posters who have simply expressed their opinions politely and genuinely. You've been hostile, condescending, and disingenuous throughout, and take no care about the accusations you're making and how they might hurt the people they're directed at. I take being accused of sexism by you very personally - on par with being accused of racism or homophobia, especially when it's not backed up by ANY examples despite you being asked repeatedly to provide them.

People disagreeing with or contradicting your posts is not equivalent to telling you or anyone else to shut up or dismissing the issue, and frankly falling back on making us different because we're mods is unfair, because we have a right to defend ourselves, and we're also posters here too.

 

[Niorah]

If women here get offended by comments made about their picture, there's a solution - don't post a picture.

If a guy makes a comment you don't like, scroll past it - Honestly, you don't have to read it. The message board police will not come and take you away.

I'd like to comment on this, even if it's from a few pages back.

I don't like confrontation, so I am indeed one of those who usually just skips the posts that I know have the potential to annoy me, and I agree that on a day-to-day basis sometimes it's the right thing to do, especially to avoid heartburn, migraines and other stress related unpleasant effects.

But.

I suppose growing up with four brothers, then entering the military has numbed me to being offended by nonsense. ...

You know, if it hadn't been for women actually standing up and letting their voices be heard, instead of just scrolling past, you probably wouldn't have gained the right to enter the military in the first place.

I don't want to imply that this situation is as important as women's rights on a political or social level, but it is important nonetheless and sometimes, let's say twice a year ( ), it is a good thing to let your voice be heard if you think there's an issue.

 

[mimic]

If women here get offended by comments made about their picture, there's a solution - don't post a picture.

If a guy makes a comment you don't like, scroll past it

That's exactly what I end up doing. Now that the opportunity has arisen though to have a dialog about how to make this board a friendlier, more welcoming place, there's no reason not to address some concerns and try to come up with some ideas that could alleviate concerns. Unfortunately now people are on the defensive and nobody is really listening to the other side.

Specifically I would appreciate it if posters just refrained from saying anything online that they would not say to another individual in person. For example, I really doubt that various posters, if confronted by Miley Cyrus, would ask her if she's legal yet, or call Christina Hendricks a 'butterface.' You also wouldn't get all of the 'she/he doesn't do anything for me' comments, which imply that a person is only worth what he or she can do for another sexually. I think that's certainly worth a dialog, but if we can't have civil discourse on the subject, forget it.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

As far as "notify if you have a problem" I did that once, about a degrading sexual avatar. I'm more inclined to dismiss anyone reveling in such crap but this one actually upset me a lot. So I notified a mod and wrote them a note about it. Never heard a thing from the mod and the avatar remained. So I've just assumed ever since that notifying about such stuff is not welcome.

Do you have the date of the notification? It might have gotten deleted, but I can't find it in the system.

I think there needs to be two things to change the culture. One of them is just the idea of encouraging more notifications, especially on posts one considers creepy. Even if they're small, it'll help give moderators an idea of the range of good and bad. If something is never notified on, either a moderator won't see it or they might not know its considered bad by some here. With regards to sexist or creepy posts, I think it'll go a long way (imho, this is less so with trolling or flaming posts. Mods generally know what to look for there).

The second thing that would need to change is for posters to be less creepy. Short of some kind of Clockwork Orange-type situation, there's no easy way to change this. I think moderator intervention might be a part of it (especially after part one), but really can only ever be a small part.

And no, a female poster should never have to be afraid to post her picture or should have to ignore comments that are inappropriate. We don't say posters who are flamed should suck it up. While one can't be extremely thin skinned, if the comment was unreasonable, it should be dealt with, not ignored.

 

[Yeoman Randi]

Good grief, now "tits" creates a hostile environment for women? That will surprise all the hundreds of millions of women who use it freely.

This above comment that you made in response to my mentioning to ROBERT in his opening statement hits the nail on the head.

Robert was talking about the lack of respect he sees on the board, and he even mentioned various words he finds offensive.

I, a woman, brought it up to him that instead of using the word "breasts" he said "tits" bouncing. NOWHERE did i say it creates a hostile environment. WHAT I SAID was that i found it rather odd that he use that word in a thread about respect. That was what i said.

I am a woman. ANd i am telling you i found that very very odd. I also found it offensive, but i never even said that.

Instead of LISTENING to me, you insult me by proxy. Why is it so difficult for you to hear me, as a woman, that i found that Robert's use of "tits" rather odd, in a thread about respect???

And by the way. I am a woman and i have NEVER EVER used the word "TITS" in a conversation. EVER. But, it sounds like you know "HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF WOMEN" who do. So who am i to ponder whether or not you have that fact right or not?

RJ, not getting into whether you're right or wrong, I have noticed in the past, you never really take an effort to see the other viewpoint. Obviously, this thread wouldn't be 10+ pages every six months if there weren't legitimate concerns. I think you take a "equality means pretending distinctions and context doesn't matter", while I think there needs to be a more nuanced approach. Otherwise, the extreme end of your position would be like one poster, who feels that males exposing their chest is a double standard.

I really don't think either extreme is right. I also don't technically think right is what the answer is. It's a balance of viewpoints that the greatest amount of people can accept to encourage fun participation in this board and interesting discussion. Diversity of posters is an important aspect of this, so I always hate it when posters leave. But diversity of ways to express oneself is also an important goal. So the question isn't who is right on this issue, but how can we work this out to make most people happy.

Clearly Alidar gets it. Thank you Alidar.

 

[Deckerd]

In the UK we use 'tits up' all the time, meaning going completely wrong. It has no gender association, since every mammal has them and frequently wind up on their backs when they peg.

 

[Yeoman Randi]

That's great. But RJ and I are not in the UK. And whether or not you in the UK use it or not has nothing to do with the point i am trying to make.

 

[Deckerd]

I thought the point you were making (amongst others) was querying the mass use of the word tits by women. I assure you American women use it just as much as anyone else. Just because it's taboo for you doesn't mean it is for everyone. In the great scheme of things it's not a terrible word. While we're at it; this is a global board so I find it offensive that anyone who isn't American is treated like a second class citizen.

 

[Jenee]

If women here get offended by comments made about their picture, there's a solution - don't post a picture.

If a guy makes a comment you don't like, scroll past it - Honestly, you don't have to read it. The message board police will not come and take you away.

I'd like to comment on this, even if it's from a few pages back.

I don't like confrontation, so I am indeed one of those who usually just skips the posts that I know have the potential to annoy me, and I agree that on a day-to-day basis sometimes it's the right thing to do, especially to avoid heartburn, migraines and other stress related unpleasant effects.

But.

I suppose growing up with four brothers, then entering the military has numbed me to being offended by nonsense. ...

You know, if it hadn't been for women actually standing up and letting their voices be heard, instead of just scrolling past, you probably wouldn't have gained the right to enter the military in the first place.

I don't want to imply that this situation is as important as women's rights on a political or social level, but it is important nonetheless and sometimes, let's say twice a year ( ), it is a good thing to let your voice be heard if you think there's an issue.

In the post I made after this one, I mentioned the fight for women's rights - I do not in any way belittle or minimize their plight.

Yes, women do need to speak up and be heard. I've often said the reasons for many of the changes in the military is because women won't put up with the nonsense that men put up with.

However, there's a line. On one side you have the necessity to speak up on issues and do the right thing. On the other side is a desire to be treated "special"

The problem isn't just anonymity, its also a lot of familiarity. Someone who lurks more than posts might feel they've come to "know" another poster and therefore, feel completely comfortable saying something they would say to their partner, best friend, or sibling.

Very few of the comments women here take offense to are intended to be offensive and I doubt if someone close to the offendee had said those same words, the offendee would have been offended.

If women here get offended by comments made about their picture, there's a solution - don't post a picture.

If a guy makes a comment you don't like, scroll past it

That's exactly what I end up doing. Now that the opportunity has arisen though to have a dialog about how to make this board a friendlier, more welcoming place, there's no reason not to address some concerns and try to come up with some ideas that could alleviate concerns. Unfortunately now people are on the defensive and nobody is really listening to the other side.

Specifically I would appreciate it if posters just refrained from saying anything online that they would not say to another individual in person. For example, I really doubt that various posters, if confronted by Miley Cyrus, would ask her if she's legal yet, or call Christina Hendricks a 'butterface.' You also wouldn't get all of the 'she/he doesn't do anything for me' comments, which imply that a person is only worth what he or she can do for another sexually. I think that's certainly worth a dialog, but if we can't have civil discourse on the subject, forget it.

Are you saying you've never made similar comments about Brad Pitt, or Daniel Radcliffe or any other male celebrity.

I don't necessarily like the comments directed at women either, but when I took into account my own behavior and comments about men ... well, I had to lighten up.

 

[Yeoman Randi]

I thought the point you were making (amongst others) was querying the mass use of the word tits by women. I assure you American women use it just as much as anyone else. Just because it's taboo for you doesn't mean it is for everyone. In the great scheme of things it's not a terrible word. While we're at it; this is a global board so I find it offensive that anyone who isn't American is treated like a second class citizen.

Funny how i have lived here in the US for 54 years and have NEVER heard another woman use it. And seriously, you're going to go into the "if youre not an american you are a second class citizen" diatribe? Please. This isn't even the subject nor does it have anything to do with what i am trying to say.

If you prefer to be 'one of the boys' thats fine. I'm trying to speak to RJ about something that is bothering me and other women on this board (i know this because i have rec'd pms and emails from others).

And regarding "the great scheme of things". We are trying to have a respectful conversation between men and women here about what we can all do to make this place more comfortable for everyone. Yeah, in the great scheme of life it may not be a big deal. But for the women who want to come to this place and feel at home, maybe it is something that needs to be addressed.

And again......i only mentioned it to Robert because it didn't quite fit in the context of his opening statement.

 

[Franklin]

I think there needs to be two things to change the culture. One of them is just the idea of encouraging more notifications, especially on posts one considers creepy. Even if they're small, it'll help give moderators an idea of the range of good and bad. If something is never notified on, either a moderator won't see it or they might not know its considered bad by some here. With regards to sexist or creepy posts, I think it'll go a long way (imho, this is less so with trolling or flaming posts. Mods generally know what to look for there).

This is probably the most sensible thing. Let the norm establish itself by encouraging complaints. Any complaint. Don't let anyone think that ignoring it or shrugging it off is acceptable. Then, stick to the norm.
It's the same as in any other context, if someone is making you feel uncomfortable, do someting about it. Passivity only allows the problem to continue and grow. Especially because a lot of people may not even know they are being creepy (and would not want to be), or forget this is not a men's lockerroom, or forget that certain remarks don't carry well across cultures.
Establishing a norm and reminding people to be respectful and think of how someone might take amiss what may have been an innocent remark would probably significantly cut down on the problem. I doubt all the creepy remarks here are from truly creepy people.

 

[ichab]

I know I'll get bashed for this, and I'm prepared for that, but I do think it important to point out it would be helpful to allow women to post their feelings without having a mod come along and criticise their opinion ad nauseam with a foot long post. A response and difference of opinion is fine, after all, that's what dialogue is, but I do think some of what's been happening to posters here is overkill. I know that is not against board rules at all, but it is as though there is a want to shut these women up by embarrassing and ridiculing them because what they are saying is not welcome.

There are those who are speaking up about this for the first time, and no doubt still more reading who will think twice about posting because of the veiled intimidation those who have spoken so far are receiving. I don't see a problem when it is posters among themselves, but when a mod weighs in to ridicule a member, I don't think that's the best way to proceed. I will concede this may not be deliberate and merely a posting style, but it does have an effect.

Wow, I've never seen such a mountain being made out of a molehill before. No mod has ridiculed anyone and from what I've seen no poster is intimidating anyone.

 

[Servo]

Funny how i have lived here in the US for 54 years and have NEVER heard another woman use it.

That little nugget of anecdotal evidence is about as irrelevant and unsubstatiated as you're claiming Deckerd's is.

People have been using the word "tits" on this board for a variety of reasons ever since I can remember (and I've been here since 1999). How many times have you complained about its use, or notified a mod that it offended you before now?

 

[Deckerd]

And again......i only mentioned it to Robert because it didn't quite fit in the context of his opening statement.

For someone who 'only mentioned it' you seem to have gone on a crusade for its elimination from the language. Diatribe is what you are doing, not a one sentence comment about chauvinism.

 

[Yeoman Randi]

How is it irrelevant? I'm telling you i've never heard an american woman use it. For her to say american women use it as much as women in the UK has no relevance at all. She doesn't even LIVE in the US, so how could she possibly know? And i am telling you I PERSONALLY have never heard anyone use it.

I wasn't even complaining about its use, btw. How about reading the original posts before entering the conversation?

 

[Yeoman Randi]

Heh, whatever. You both are not reading the original posts and i have way too much to do that sit here and argue with you both. Good day.

 

[Emher]

In fact "tits" has been used in reference to and old troller whenever a clearly controversial and lock-bound thread has appeared.

As for not being used in the US, I heard it several times uttered by women when I was in the US. Granted these where in their late teens, but even so.

 

[Deckerd]

No no anecdotal evidence is only permissible if you're an American woman, silly.

 

[Emher]

Darn, forgot that. Well, the first part of my post still stands.