What was wrong with "These are the Voyages"

[Noname Given]

I agree, even though I have many issues with TATV, I can say that it was nice to see Riker and Troi together again, one last time.

Riker and Troi:
Seven years on TNG
Generations
First Contact
Insurrection
Nemesis

Riker: VOY ("Death Wish")
Troi: VOY ("Inside Man," "Life Line," "Pathfinder")

Seems to me Jonathan and Marina's characters had plenty of exposure as opposed to the cast Enterprise fans wanted to see in this final episode.

FYI in your list, you forgot Frakes' appearance in the 3rd season DS9 episode: The Defiant (ok, so it turned out to be Tom Riker, his transporter clone - but he played as 'Riker' for a portion of the episode)

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

and more importantly didn't follow an absolute raping of Trek canon and continuity

Seriously?

I don't think it was anything of the kind. The only violations, if one could call it that, were of wildly speculative fanon that was never true to begin with. ENT in its final season did a fine job of bridging the gap, letting us in on a lot of interesting stuff such as the Augments, Mirror Universe, Vulcan arc, etc.

 

[JiNX-01]

I agree, even though I have many issues with TATV, I can say that it was nice to see Riker and Troi together again, one last time.

Riker and Troi:
Seven years on TNG
Generations
First Contact
Insurrection
Nemesis

Riker: VOY ("Death Wish")
Troi: VOY ("Inside Man," "Life Line," "Pathfinder")

Seems to me Jonathan and Marina's characters had plenty of exposure as opposed to the cast Enterprise fans wanted to see in this final episode.

FYI in your list, you forgot Frakes' appearance in the 3rd season DS9 episode: The Defiant (ok, so it turned out to be Tom Riker, his transporter clone - but he played as 'Riker' for a portion of the episode)

I didn't forget. I decided to limit it to Will and Deanna because they were the characters who appeared in TATV.

 

[doubleohfive]

Riker and Troi:
Seven years on TNG
Generations
First Contact
Insurrection
Nemesis

Riker: VOY ("Death Wish")
Troi: VOY ("Inside Man," "Life Line," "Pathfinder")

Seems to me Jonathan and Marina's characters had plenty of exposure as opposed to the cast Enterprise fans wanted to see in this final episode.

FYI in your list, you forgot Frakes' appearance in the 3rd season DS9 episode: The Defiant (ok, so it turned out to be Tom Riker, his transporter clone - but he played as 'Riker' for a portion of the episode)

I didn't forget. I decided to limit it to Will and Deanna because they were the characters who appeared in TATV.

That's all well and good, but I don't think J. Sarek of Avidan was saying Frakes and Sirtis hadn't had a lot of exposure; rather I think the point he was making was that he simply enjoyed seeing them again, if only one last time. Why fault him for that?

I don't disagree that their appearance took away valuable time that probably should have been spent on the actual cast of Enterprise, and while I still think it was a mistake to shoehorn this gimmick-ridden episode in as the "finale" when the preceding two-parter would have been just fine ... I also think, despite the negatives, it was nice to see Frakes as Riker and Sirtis as Troi again too.

 

[JiNX-01]

FYI in your list, you forgot Frakes' appearance in the 3rd season DS9 episode: The Defiant (ok, so it turned out to be Tom Riker, his transporter clone - but he played as 'Riker' for a portion of the episode)

I didn't forget. I decided to limit it to Will and Deanna because they were the characters who appeared in TATV.

That's all well and good, but I don't think J. Sarek of Avidan was saying Frakes and Sirtis hadn't had a lot of exposure; rather I think the point he was making was that he simply enjoyed seeing them again, if only one last time. Why fault him for that?

I don't disagree that their appearance took away valuable time that probably should have been spent on the actual cast of Enterprise, and while I still think it was a mistake to shoehorn this gimmick-ridden episode in as the "finale" when the preceding two-parter would have been just fine ... I also think, despite the negatives, it was nice to see Frakes as Riker and Sirtis as Troi again too.

My point is that TNG fans had plenty of opportunities to see Frakes/Riker and Sirtis/Troi in the hundreds of hours that they were on TV and in the movies.

Don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge Jonathan and Marina welcoming the opportunity to don the uniform again. They clearly enjoyed playing their roles again. I just think their screen time should have been more in line with being guests in someone else's house.

 

[star]

My point is that TNG fans had plenty of opportunities to see Frakes/Riker and Sirtis/Troi in the hundreds of hours that they were on TV and in the movies.

Don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge Jonathan and Marina welcoming the opportunity to don the uniform again. They clearly enjoyed playing their roles again. I just think their screen time should have been more in line with being guests in someone else's house.

I am a rabid TNG fan, and I have a serious problem with the episode being basically about Riker and Troi rather than the ENT crew.

And I'm so tired of people saying that the finale is what made Enterprise canon in Trekverse. By its own definition related to Trek, ENT was canon as soon as "Broken Bow" aired -- canon only refers to what appears onscreen in any Trek series or film, nothing more. There may be continuity issues (every freaking series had them, even TOS), but ENT was canon from the get-go.

We did not need TNG characters to confirm that for us. The only part that was awesome was the last 40 seconds. What they could have done was switched a couple of scenes at the end of Terra Prime (swapping Archer's speech with the Trip/T'Pol scene) and then tacked on the last 40 seconds from TaTV and that would have been a finale to please a larger number of the fans. (Not saying that some folks wouldn't have had their hackles up at that, but significantly less than those waving pitchforks at TaTV).

And TaTV was hardly a farewell to all Trek, just TNG and ENT (not including the last 40 seconds). So that argument doesn't work for me either.

But this is where we all have to know that we are continuing this debate without hope of changing anyone's opinions. I'm agreeing to disagree, and respect that not everyone sees the finale as a heinous gift you give your ex when you want the ultimate revenge like I do.

 

[jolene_b_fan]

agreed, riker and troi were unecessary. it was a rip-off to the Enterprise fans for sure to end that way.

 

[Amaris]

That's all well and good, but I don't think J. Sarek of Avidan...

If this keeps up, the Queen's going to have to Knight me.

...was saying Frakes and Sirtis hadn't had a lot of exposure; rather I think the point he was making was that he simply enjoyed seeing them again, if only one last time. Why fault him for that?

I don't disagree that their appearance took away valuable time that probably should have been spent on the actual cast of Enterprise, and while I still think it was a mistake to shoehorn this gimmick-ridden episode in as the "finale" when the preceding two-parter would have been just fine ... I also think, despite the negatives, it was nice to see Frakes as Riker and Sirtis as Troi again too.

Exactly, well said.

 

[Saquist]

and more importantly didn't follow an absolute raping of Trek canon and continuity

Seriously?

I don't think it was anything of the kind. The only violations, if one could call it that, were of wildly speculative fanon that was never true to begin with. ENT in its final season did a fine job of bridging the gap, letting us in on a lot of interesting stuff such as the Augments, Mirror Universe, Vulcan arc, etc.

I'll go through it once again, sure.
So it's "wildly" speculative That Sisko remembers only 5 Enterprises
It's "wildly" speculative that the the Temporal Agents remember only 6.

Both of those excluded the NX-01

Is it also "wildly" speculative that the Computer couldn't seem to recall a Star Fleet ship before the original 1701?

How bout the fact the NX-01 Registry was already used in Voyager with a heir designation of "A" just as the Enterprise Class ship was? We know what that means. GAMES like Star Trek Armada have used the same pattern of heir designations. Is it speculation, yes, but WILDLY?

"WILDLY" Really? These are facts and contradictions my friend and they don't go away just because they offend you. You can't fit into you belief how ever you wish of course but when some one calls it like it is doesn't mean they are wrong or even that it's speculation. These are continuity errors and while every series has some, ENT had BIG ONES.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

So it's "wildly" speculative That Sisko remembers only 5 Enterprises
It's "wildly" speculative that the the Temporal Agents remember only 6.

Both of those excluded the NX-01

So? Who gives a crap? Those DS9 episodes were all written before Enterprise had even been thought of by the writers.

Is it also "wildly" speculative that the Computer couldn't seem to recall a Star Fleet ship before the original 1701?

The Earth Starfleet and the Federation Starfleet are not the same organization.

How bout the fact the NX-01 Registry was already used in Voyager with a heir designation of "A" just as the Enterprise Class ship was? We know what that means.

Yes, the NX-01-A (the Dauntless) was FAKE! It was an ALIEN starship! Not real!

Also, we have seen multiple instances of the same starship name being used for many different ships but with completely different registry numbers. Defiant, for example.

GAMES like Star Trek Armada have used the same pattern of heir designations. Is it speculation, yes, but WILDLY?

Games are not canon. Also, see above.

These are facts and contradictions my friend and they don't go away just because they offend you.

ENT doesn't go away just because it offends YOU.

 

[Saquist]

So? Who gives a crap? Those DS9 episodes were all written before Enterprise had even been thought of by the writers.

Exactly...thus the continuity error...
Why go on?
Ah...but you will I see.

The Earth Starfleet and the Federation Starfleet are not the same organization.

That would be conjecture.

Yes, the NX-01-A (the Dauntless) was FAKE! It was an ALIEN starship! Not real!

Yes...very good I'm glad you agree because one certainly couldn't buy that a crew of Star Fleet Officers wouldn't get the historical significance of a prototype ship with a NX-01 registry with the wrong name.

Also, we have seen multiple instances of the same starship name being used for many different ships but with completely different registry numbers. Defiant, for example.

NEVER have we seen the same registry applied to a different name in Star Trek. So your argument here is a false analogy because it doesn't fit the situation. Seeing two Intrepids with different Registry doesn't help you in this argument. It's a complete Red Herring.

Games are not canon. Also, see above.

I hope that's irrelevant commentary because I hate to break it to you...
No one here said it was canon.
I said is was speculation. You quoted but ignored it. You saw what you wanted to read.

Speculation based on a established pattern is far more reasonable than baseless conjecture such as "The Star Fleets aren't the same". I'll take a pattern any day.

ENT doesn't go away just because it offends YOU.

No,no, no...It has gone away. It's DEAD...I wished it... and it was canceled.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Exactly...thus the continuity error...

"Retcon" is the word. They weren't mistakes made though ignorance, they were choices made to alter one or two things to suit the new series. It's no different to when TOS changed Kirk's middle initial, or the nature and use of antimatter, or the lithium crystals from WNMHGB to dilithium, or when Gene Rodenberry decided there was no money in Star Trek, despite numerous references to it throughout TOS.

No, no, no...It has gone away. It's DEAD... I wished it... and it was canceled

...just as TOS was
Enterprise is just as dead today as TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY and movies I though X. They are all equally "deceased", living on now only in novels, comics and videogames.

 

[Gaith]

I love the concept of Troi and Riker watching them on the holodeck, it validates Enterprise. But obviously the story here was bad, and they shouldn't have set it during the events of Pegasus. Give it to us when they're on the Titan, that woulda been fucking awesomez.

Wow, that could indeed have been great.

I always took the lack of change during the "six year jump" as satirizing the lack of change in the series in general. It's the first deep space ship, and the only Trek series not to add/lose a single series regular? That's messed up.

 

[Galileo7]

I love the concept of Troi and Riker watching them on the holodeck, it validates Enterprise. But obviously the story here was bad, and they shouldn't have set it during the events of Pegasus. Give it to us when they're on the Titan, that woulda been fucking awesomez.

Brilliant idea! It should have been when Captain Riker and Troi were on the U.S.S. Titan.

 

[JiNX-01]

I love the concept of Troi and Riker watching them on the holodeck, it validates Enterprise. But obviously the story here was bad, and they shouldn't have set it during the events of Pegasus. Give it to us when they're on the Titan, that woulda been fucking awesomez.

Wow, that could indeed have been great.

As I understand it, they couldn't base the R/T scenes on the Titan because the suits were supposedly leaving an opening for doing another TNG movie and they didn't want the Titan used because they'd have to deal with the TV version of the Titan and the bigger budget movie version. And they know how picky some fans are about continuity.

I think the R/T stuff could have been handled just as well if they were on a transport en route to the Titan in the wake of Nemesis. The surviving Romulan leadship has initiated a call for negotiations toward normalization of relations with the Federation. As R/T are traveling thru the RNZ and Riker remarks that he never thought he'd live to see the end of it. Then he points at a small nebula and tells Troi that was where the treaty was signed. He adds that Archer's last mission was to provide escort for the diplomats who would negotiate the conclusion of the Romulan War and establish the zone.
Troi asks what happened and he narrates exposition to set the stage and compensate for the lack of time (43 minutes is not much for a finale).

I always took the lack of change during the "six year jump" as satirizing the lack of change in the series in general.

You think Bermaga actually spoofed their own incompetence in running the show?

 

[Saquist]

"Retcon" is the word. They weren't mistakes made though ignorance, they were choices made to alter one or two things to suit the new series. It's no different to when TOS changed Kirk's middle initial, or the nature and use of antimatter, or the lithium crystals from WNMHGB to dilithium, or when Gene Rodenberry decided there was no money in Star Trek, despite numerous references to it throughout TOS.

If you believe that but that doesn't invalidate them as continuity errors. The purposeful error makes it worse. It's presumptuous.

...just as TOS was

That was murder of a beautiful creation.

Enterprise is just as dead today as TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY

Old age. They passed away after a long life. Nothing goes on for ever. They are remembered fondly for the good things they have done.

and movies I though X.

Movies don't Die. I can't explain it but they just don't. Good or bad they linger.

ENT on the other hand was justly EXECUTED for crimes against FANDOM and continuity, Awful acting, and lack of originality. It was wonderful to see ENT get what it deserved.

 

[F. King Daniel]

^James Dixon, is that you??

 

[Gaith]

I always took the lack of change during the "six year jump" as satirizing the lack of change in the series in general.

You think Bermaga actually spoofed their own incompetence in running the show?

I didn't say it was logical... that's just how I read it. I also take The Da Vinci Code movie as a biting satire on all of Christianity, but I'm not at all sure that that was intended, either.

Oh, and good call on the "transport to the Titan" idea. Heck, it could have been a story he told her on their honeymoon... point is, the R/T appearance was not innately evil.

 

[JiNX-01]

I always took the lack of change during the "six year jump" as satirizing the lack of change in the series in general.

You think Bermaga actually spoofed their own incompetence in running the show?

I didn't say it was logical... that's just how I read it. I also take The Da Vinci Code movie as a biting satire on all of Christianity, but I'm not at all sure that that was intended, either.

Oh, and good call on the "transport to the Titan" idea. Heck, it could have been a story he told her on their honeymoon... point is, the R/T appearance was not innately evil.

I don't consider the R/T appearance to be innately evil. I just think the screen time afforded these "guest stars" was out of proportion to the contribution they made to the plot, such as it was.

 

[Amaris]

You think Bermaga actually spoofed their own incompetence in running the show?

I didn't say it was logical... that's just how I read it. I also take The Da Vinci Code movie as a biting satire on all of Christianity, but I'm not at all sure that that was intended, either.

Oh, and good call on the "transport to the Titan" idea. Heck, it could have been a story he told her on their honeymoon... point is, the R/T appearance was not innately evil.

I don't consider the R/T appearance to be innately evil. I just think the screen time afforded these "guest stars" was out of proportion to the contribution they made to the plot, such as it was.

I agree, there. For me, Riker & Troi was a welcome event, but they seemed to overstay their welcome, and I say that as a fan of both. Berman & Braga should have known how to manage their screen time, and they blew it.