What was wrong with "These are the Voyages"

[Saquist]

You think Bermaga actually spoofed their own incompetence in running the show?

I didn't say it was logical... that's just how I read it. I also take The Da Vinci Code movie as a biting satire on all of Christianity, but I'm not at all sure that that was intended, either.

Oh, and good call on the "transport to the Titan" idea. Heck, it could have been a story he told her on their honeymoon... point is, the R/T appearance was not innately evil.

I don't consider the R/T appearance to be innately evil. I just think the screen time afforded these "guest stars" was out of proportion to the contribution they made to the plot, such as it was.

I don't think it was that bad either but I do think that placing the setting during the Pegasus episode was completely WRONG...no vision...

COME ON Berman. He's controls an entire franchise and he has no idea what he's going to do for the future. The guys above are right...taking place on the TITAN would have been fantastic...

What a great send off that would have been. Transform a bridge set and a holodeck and BAM! you got something the TREK FANS would have been talking about till this day! It might have even created enough BUZZ for a new series...wet the appetite.

 

[Freman]

I think the potential was there for a good story, but:

1: It was RUSHED! Everyone else got a 2 hr finale, ENT should have too. Not enough time for all the nice little character moments fans wanted.

2: The Riker/Troi stuff, IMO, should have been set on the Titan, not Enterprise D. But B&B wanted the fanwank element of rebuilding some old ENT-D sets.

 

[Gaith]

^ Actually, the above account of the studio suits mandating the D sounds pretty credible to moi.

 

[Deckerd]

Some, apparently, are more easily pleased than others.

Given the widespread approval for crap like Mirror, Darkly and Demons/Terra Prime, I've got to agree.

I'm forced to say that Mirror Darkly was equally as bad as TATV

TATV was a bad idea, poorly thought out and poorly scripted and performed by a cast who all thought it was a bad idea, poorly thought out and poorly scripted.

 

[AMQ]

I'm forced to say that Mirror Darkly was equally as bad as TATV

I know it's totally off-topic but I'm curious, why do you think Mirror Darkly was (that) bad?

 

[Deckerd]

Anything mirror/alternate universe or holodeck fantasy is taking the piss, IMO. If you want to mix it up there are plenty of ways of doing it without resorting to such insulting ideas. Farscape managed it effortlessly. Oh and time travel comes close behind.

 

[Gaith]

The problem with Mirror, Darkly was its sleaze: you could almost hear everyone from the suits to the writers to even the actors saying "this isn't a real Star Trek episode, so we can just go crazy! Gratuitous violence and sex (though please, no eroticism), skimpy outfits, racism... anything goes!" Except it was a Star Trek episode, and one that was an insult to the spirit of the series.

As for TATV and Enterprise generally, I think Michelle Erica Green's ultimate assessment was fair:

I don't think that "These Are the Voyages..." is the stink-bomb of an episode that some of the early reviews have claimed, nor do I think it's the glorious send-off for the Star Trek franchise that some folk at Paramount would like us to believe. It's more an orphan episode of an orphan series that never quite worked out its continuity issues, that never fully embraced its role as a prequel to Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek...that provided several seasons of entertainment and likeable characters, but, had it not borne the Star Trek label (and who can forget that it didn't for two full seasons), would never be classed as the sort of groundbreaking, gutsy science fiction that Next Gen and Deep Space Nine were and that I hope the next incarnation may be.

 

[Galileo7]

The problem with Mirror, Darkly was its sleaze: you could almost hear everyone from the suits to the writers to even the actors saying "this isn't a real Star Trek episode, so we can just go crazy! Gratuitous violence and sex (though please, no eroticism), skimpy outfits, racism... anything goes!" Except it was a Star Trek episode, and one that was an insult to the spirit of the series.

But that was the point of the "In A Mirror, Darkly" episode, it is supposed to be that because it is the "Mirror,Mirror" universe that is all violence etc., not our Starfleet universe.

 

[Gaith]

Yes, thanks, I'm not a moron; I fully understood their thought process. But understanding what they were going for doesn't make the ep any less sleazy, shallow and undeserving of the name Star Trek.

And the Mirror Universe is not all violence: Mirror Spock took no pleasure in what he had to do to survive, and Marlena was scared out of her wits to live amongst such monsters. No one in Mirror, Darkly showed that kind of humanity, and that's it's principal fault. It was just a cheap lark for everyone involved.

 

[star]

Yes, thanks, I'm not a moron; I fully understood their thought process. But understanding what they were going for doesn't make the ep any less sleazy, shallow and undeserving of the name Star Trek.

And the Mirror Universe is not all violence: Mirror Spock took no pleasure in what he had to do to survive, and Marlena was scared out of her wits to live amongst such monsters. No one in Mirror, Darkly showed that kind of humanity, and that's it's principal fault. It was just a cheap lark for everyone involved.

I haven't seen the DS9 MU eps, but I have watched "Mirror, Mirror" more than once and I don't see how it's superior to "In a Mirror, Darkly". Forrest was honorable in his own way, and I think T'Pol was misguided in her actions, but I felt she was trying to do what was best for her people.

But then, if you don't have a high opinion of ENT to begin with, I can see how the MU episodes would be more of a turn off.

I personally, love them (shocking, I know). But eh, to each their own, right?

I've already shared my thoughts on TaTV which obviously don't coincide with yours. But it's interesting to know what others think of the episode -- others who don't think it's giving the finger to the series. Thanks for participating in the discussion. (And in case text doesn't adequately convey my meaning, I am NOT being sarcastic. )

 

[JiNX-01]

The problem with Mirror, Darkly was its sleaze: you could almost hear everyone from the suits to the writers to even the actors saying "this isn't a real Star Trek episode, so we can just go crazy! Gratuitous violence and sex (though please, no eroticism), skimpy outfits, racism... anything goes!" Except it was a Star Trek episode, and one that was an insult to the spirit of the series.

Broken Bow, Sleeping Dogs, A Night in Sickbay: Decon scenes (including a nude T'Pol in Archer's wet dream in ANIS).
Broken Bow: Archer pacing in his quarters in his tight royal blue undies.
Acquisition: Trip wanders the ship in his tight royal blue undies
Shockwave II: Hoshi crawls through access tubes throughout the ship without incident and then she loses her shirt just in time to enter Malcolm's quarters.
The Xindi: T'Pol introduces Trip to Vulcan neuropressure by removing her pajama top.
Harbinger: T'Pol drops her robe and we get a shot of her backside.
Borderland, Bound: Scantily clad Orion women.

And you think IAMD is a "sleazy" departure?

My apologies, I forgot one:
Bounty: Pon faar sweaty T'Pol squirms around trying to get Phlox to have sex with her.

 

[Gaith]

^ When did I say that all those moments weren't low and sleazy? I didn't (in fact, I believe I mentioned Bound earlier in this very thread), and would agree with the above criticisms - all of which reinforce Michelle Erica Green's above quote. But there's a difference in scale between Archer doing an otherwise not-notable scene in tight boxers and two full eps devoted to base titillation.

Unlike TNG and DS9, middle-to-late VOY and ENT were shows behind their times, and this informs my non-sympathy for those who moan "TATV" for hijacking ENT's finale with a de facto TNG ep - if ENT had been better, maybe it wouldn't have been canceled in the first place. As a TNG kid, I'm biased for sure, but all else being equal, I'll take a Riker and Troi ep over the ENT crew any day.


Oh, and @ star scream: cheers!

 

[Saquist]

The problem with Mirror, Darkly was its sleaze: you could almost hear everyone from the suits to the writers to even the actors saying "this isn't a real Star Trek episode, so we can just go crazy! Gratuitous violence and sex (though please, no eroticism), skimpy outfits, racism... anything goes!" Except it was a Star Trek episode, and one that was an insult to the spirit of the series.

Broken Bow, Sleeping Dogs, A Night in Sickbay: Decon scenes (including a nude T'Pol in Archer's wet dream in ANIS).
Broken Bow: Archer pacing in his quarters in his tight royal blue undies.
Acquisition: Trip wanders the ship in his tight royal blue undies
Shockwave II: Hoshi crawls through access tubes throughout the ship without incident and then she loses her shirt just in time to enter Malcolm's quarters.
The Xindi: T'Pol introduces Trip to Vulcan neuropressure by removing her pajama top.
Harbinger: T'Pol drops her robe and we get a shot of her backside.
Borderland, Bound: Scantily clad Orion women.

And you think IAMD is a "sleazy" departure?

My apologies, I forgot one:
Bounty: Pon faar sweaty T'Pol squirms around trying to get Phlox to have sex with her.

I had no idea...

 

[F. King Daniel]

In a (very) old issue of the Star Trek mag, they had a top ten Enterprise episodes list, voted for by fans. "In a Mirror, Darkly" was first, and "These Are The Voyages" came sixth.

I thought someone was having a laugh.

 

[JiNX-01]

No one in Mirror, Darkly showed that kind of humanity, and that's it's principal fault. It was just a cheap lark for everyone involved.

Obviously you didn't see the same episodes I did:

T'Pol sympathized with the rebellion. She read about the Federation and the just treatment of all species in the other universe. She wanted that concept to spread.
She also freed Forrest from the brig at the risk of her own life.

When it became apparent Exterprise couldn't escape, Forrest sacrificed himself to save his crew. Even Hoshi stopped on the bridge and demanded to know what he was doing.

Tucker wasn't brutal. He spent quite a bit of time in the agony booth because of T'Pol's actions and yet he didn't lay a hand on her. I doubt Archer would have cared much if she returned to the bridge with a split lip just so long as she remained functional.

 

[Saquist]

In a (very) old issue of the Star Trek mag, they had a top ten Enterprise episodes list, voted for by fans. "In a Mirror, Darkly" was first, and "These Are The Voyages" came sixth.

I thought someone was having a laugh.

Funny I thought the fans would have voted it number one.
I have new respect for the Mob Opinion now.

 

[F. King Daniel]

In a (very) old issue of the Star Trek mag, they had a top ten Enterprise episodes list, voted for by fans. "In a Mirror, Darkly" was first, and "These Are The Voyages" came sixth.

I thought someone was having a laugh.

Funny I thought the fans would have voted it number one.
I have new respect for the Mob Opinion now.

I doubt "mob opinion" had anything to do with it. Magazine polls (not to mention those on several websites) have rarely ever indicated any more than the preferences of those in charge.

 

[Gaith]

@ JiNXed: maybe I'm letting an old memory running away from me. But if it wasn't dreck a la Bound, it certainly wasn't worthy of the Trek name, either.

 

[Amaris]

The problem with Mirror, Darkly was its sleaze: you could almost hear everyone from the suits to the writers to even the actors saying "this isn't a real Star Trek episode, so we can just go crazy! Gratuitous violence and sex (though please, no eroticism), skimpy outfits, racism... anything goes!" Except it was a Star Trek episode, and one that was an insult to the spirit of the series.

Broken Bow, Sleeping Dogs, A Night in Sickbay: Decon scenes (including a nude T'Pol in Archer's wet dream in ANIS).
Broken Bow: Archer pacing in his quarters in his tight royal blue undies.
Acquisition: Trip wanders the ship in his tight royal blue undies
Shockwave II: Hoshi crawls through access tubes throughout the ship without incident and then she loses her shirt just in time to enter Malcolm's quarters.
The Xindi: T'Pol introduces Trip to Vulcan neuropressure by removing her pajama top.
Harbinger: T'Pol drops her robe and we get a shot of her backside.
Borderland, Bound: Scantily clad Orion women.

And you think IAMD is a "sleazy" departure?

My apologies, I forgot one:
Bounty: Pon faar sweaty T'Pol squirms around trying to get Phlox to have sex with her.

[Takes out pencil and paper, begins writing]

Watch..more...ENT. For research.

 

[Saquist]

In a (very) old issue of the Star Trek mag, they had a top ten Enterprise episodes list, voted for by fans. "In a Mirror, Darkly" was first, and "These Are The Voyages" came sixth.

I thought someone was having a laugh.

Funny I thought the fans would have voted it number one.
I have new respect for the Mob Opinion now.

I doubt "mob opinion" had anything to do with it. Magazine polls (not to mention those on several websites) have rarely ever indicated any more than the preferences of those in charge.

What exactly are you saying?