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I’ll just go ahead and say it: I don’t like Star Trek.

It depends. There are a few "film sets" for which I willingly turn my "critical eye" way down in sensitivity--Bond movies and Trek (movies and TV) are two (I have my internal rankings of each, but I don't hold them to the same "critical eye" I do other things)...

So you admit to being un-critical and pre-disposed to liking this film, rather than being objective. :vulcan:

( :p )
Yes. And...

Generally, I approach movies by allowing for the goal of the filmmakers. I do not judge a comedy the same way I judge a drama or a thriller or so on. I usually have a pretty strong idea of what the filmmaker is aiming at before I see a film and I judge accordingly...
This is something that I'm curious about, short of reading every interview or article on the film prior to watching, digging through their trash for correspondence, hacking their email for same, or telepathy, how can you possibly know what the "goal of the filmmakers" are? :cool:
Apart from the generic "hoping the audience likes it", it's not really that hard. The goal of Paramount and Abrams was pretty clear--revive "the franchise" and draw in a new crowd that, with any luck, will stick around for future installments. It only took reading one or two articles to know that.

As for other filmmakers--it's not that difficult either. Familiarity with the directors' work helps. I do read up about films if their premises are at all interesting to me, so I glean information in that fashion. The genre of a film is also frequently indicative of intent. I did say I "usually have a strong idea", not "I have an ironclad understanding of everything the filmmakers' intend".

I disagree with your premise that there was never anything "deeper" in Star Trek. I also disagree with your premise that this perception is based on nostalgia. A simple viewing of many TOS episodes can easily show that there were morality plays involved, and therefore lessons that were hoped to be learned. There were episodes wherein the moral was wielded like a sledgehammer, others wherein it was a whisper, and others still without a moral.
I've viewed them all over a dozen times. The lessons were never "deep" (and rarely subtle--they appeared both when I was much younger, though). I also think that any "lessons" were secondary to the primary goal of entertaining the viewers. Perhaps my point was not as clear as it should have been--I take issue with the idea that the purpose of Star Trek was to be a deep fount of lessons on morality and ethics. Any such lessons were incidental to the goal of entertaining the viewers and making money.

I reject your attempt to call into question objectivity by placing it in scare quotes. Yes, nostalgia clouds our perceptions. However, you are professing your nostalgia and gushing over the movie, while I am simply pointing out the plot holes that exist. I too am nostalgic, but certainly not about plot holes. Never did I claim that prior iterations of Trek were free of these signs of bad writing.
I hardly think "gusher" is an appropriate label for my views on the film. I've never called it "the best Trek movie evah", nor have I claimed it was nearly flawless. That I am willing to overlook its flaws sufficiently to be entertained by it cannot be construed as my refusing to acknowledge it has them. As far as being objective about Star Trek--it is not that I am unable to do so, it is that I do not find it worth the effort so I choose to be less objective. One should not construe a lack of desire as a lack of ability.

The more familiar we are a thing, the more vigilant we must be to retain our objectivity.
That is a lesson I try to hammer into my students in my professional capacity. It is not, however, an absolute maxim by which I choose to live in all facets of my life. There are some things, entertainment among them, where I deliberately choose to be more or less critical depending on a number of factors. Frankly, after a number of years of trying to be objectively critical almost all the time, I've concluded it is too much effort for too little reward. I know enough to be critical when needed and I also know that a bit of uncritical "enjoyment of the moment" is beneficial. I am, as is everyone, free to choose those moments without the need for external justification.

You learned to type on a typewriter. :vulcan:
As opposed to a computer keyboard? I did (as one can infer from my age) but I do not understand the relevance of this statement.
I have no idea what your age is. That you have children does help somewhat, but you could have had your first quite early in life, I don't know. It was a simple observation from the extra spaces you include in your posts. Thankfully the board filters for that. I notice because I'm also an editor and book designer.
I commend you on your observational skills and your powers of deduction.

It was NEVER as "intellectually deep" or "complex" as you are trying to suggest. It is this kind of misplaced nostalgia for something that never was...

While the whole was not always that deep or complex, there certainly are instances of it from every series. That there are past episodes that were quite thought-provoking for their time as far back as TOS proves you wrong. Some deep and complex episodes do exist. That is not nostalgia but fact.
It does not "prove me wrong". On the contrary, in the case of the particular post to which I was responding, it proves me correct. "Some deep and complex episodes" (leaving aside the level of "depth and complexity" for the moment) does not equate to "at its very soul [Trek] was a show designed to make you think...". That is a generalization unsupported by the evidence. The "flawed nostalgia" to which I refer is the notion, as I alluded to above in a slightly different context, that the PRIMARY purpose of Trek was to "make you think". That it sometimes did is NOT proof that that was its primary purpose. Moreover, it did not "make you think" all that hard (while I would enjoy going through the list of episodes to further illustrate my argument, I do not have time to do so this evening). I do not deny that Trek "made you think" more than some, perhaps most, other shows on TV. But that quality, relative to other entertainment on TV, is not proof positive of any great depth or complexity relative to other sources beyond entertainment.
 
Given that Star Trek, at it's very soul was a show designed to make you think... if you take that aspect away to appeal to the masses, is it really still Star Trek?
No. Star Trek was (and remains) pop culture entertainment that occasionally managed to "make you think". "At its very soul", it was intended to make money and entertain viewers in a modestly original fashion.

If Gene had created Star Trek solely to make money and to entertain, I don't think he would have made a science fiction show. He would have tried to make something that would maximize one of those two goals. Unless he just wasn't very good at the whole capitalism thing.
There were other sci-fi shows on TV at the time, so it was not an unprecedented move. This is a weak argument as stated.

The pilot episode was even rejected for being too intellectual!
Ah. This gem again. I've yet to see any credible evidence of this claim. It has, through the force of repetition, become a legendary rallying cry for those who cling to the "Trek was so intellectual back in the day" view.

It was NEVER as "intellectually deep" or "complex" as you are trying to suggest. It is this kind of misplaced nostalgia for something that never was that is interfering with some people's enjoyment of the new film (before someone jumps down my throat, this does not mean the new film is flawless and beyond reproach--it does mean that criticizing the new film because of something that was never a part of Trek to the degree suggested here is a largely unfounded criticism. Plot holes are one thing, this is another.)

Ahh I see. I have criticized the new movie and in doing so I am some how interfering with other people's enjoyment of it? If someone doesn't want their opinion of this film challenged, why would they be reading a thread titled "I’ll just go ahead and say it: I don’t like Star Trek."?
No. Read it again. What I said is that those clinging to this flawed nostalgia are interfering with their own (which would include you) enjoyment IF this is the main basis for disliking the new film. You (and they) are not interfering with the enjoyment of anyone else.

Fantastic argument. Your defense is to accuse me of having misplaced nostalgia? That's like just saying "No, you remember it wrong." Instead of telling me what or how I remember Star Trek as being, why don't you prove to me that Star Trek didn't try to make people think as one of it's very core aspects?
You are the one making the positive claim. When challenged, it is incumbent upon you to defend your position. However, as you've provided some examples, I will address them.

I would argue that engaging people's minds was in fact one of the core design principles behind Star Trek. Just look at the multi-racial cast. Was having a Russian, Japanese, and African American woman on the bridge done just on a whim? I don't think anyone would argue that the reason for it was to make people think and consider that race and color don't matter and that we can accomplish amazing things if we work together.
What is "deep and complex" about the idea that "we should all get along"? It is not a bad lesson, but it is not especially intellectually challenging, either.

Having Uhura kiss Captain Kirk could have gotten the show cancelled and could have (and probably did) offend the rather racially unenlightened white culture at the time. That's awfully contradictory to the goal of just trying to make a buck and entertain!
Controversy, even in the 1960s, was more often than not a selling point for TV programming, provided it was not too over the top. Beyond that, the network had right of veto BEFORE broadcasting, and the network certainly would not have broadcast it if it thought it was going to hurt the bottom line. As for the kiss itself, again, not a bad lesson ("racism is bad"). Just not a "deep and complex" one that requires a great deal of thought.

You've not yet provided a "deep and complex" example that proves your assertion that Star Trek "at its soul was a show that made you think..." A more realistic appraisal would be "Star Trek was a show that, for a commercial pop culture entertainment endeavour, occasionally succeeded at presenting some thought-provoking moments interspersed with reasonably decent action-adventure, a few enjoyable comedic episodes with relatively few outright awful episodes". That is a fair, reasonably objective assessment of TOS. It is a far cry from the legendary "intellectually deep, complex collection of morality plays that always made you think" fable it has become, over time, to some.
 
It was NEVER as "intellectually deep" or "complex" as you are trying to suggest. It is this kind of misplaced nostalgia for something that never was...

While the whole was not always that deep or complex, there certainly are instances of it from every series. That there are past episodes that were quite thought-provoking for their time as far back as TOS proves you wrong. Some deep and complex episodes do exist. That is not nostalgia but fact.

It does not "prove me wrong". On the contrary, in the case of the particular post to which I was responding, it proves me correct.

That some TOS episodes exist that were thought-provoking, intellectual, and deep proves that your statement of "NEVER" is wrong. Even a single thought-provoking episode would falsify your "NEVER" statement.

"Some deep and complex episodes" (leaving aside the level of "depth and complexity" for the moment) does not equate to "at its very soul [Trek] was a show designed to make you think...". That is a generalization unsupported by the evidence.

That was not my claim.

The "flawed nostalgia" to which I refer is the notion, as I alluded to above in a slightly different context, that the PRIMARY purpose of Trek was to "make you think". That it sometimes did is NOT proof that that was its primary purpose.

Correct. At times it was thought-provoking, but surely not "it's heart and soul." Agreed. However, that also further proves that your claim of "NEVER" is false.

Moreover, it did not "make you think" all that hard (while I would enjoy going through the list of episodes to further illustrate my argument, I do not have time to do so this evening).

I do not deny that Trek "made you think" more than some, perhaps most, other shows on TV. But that quality, relative to other entertainment on TV, is not proof positive of any great depth or complexity relative to other sources beyond entertainment.

It is in this context that I will agree that there is nostalgia. Yes, it was thought-provoking by comparison to other TV series of the time, but it was thought-provoking for a TV series, not on some great intellectual level. It was thought-provoking for its target audience, the under 30-year-olds of the 60s. Those episodes of Trek are basically Aesop's Fables, not Charles Dickens.

A more realistic appraisal would be "Star Trek: The Original Series was a show that, for a commercial pop culture entertainment endeavour, occasionally succeeded at presenting some thought-provoking moments interspersed with reasonably decent action-adventure, a few enjoyable comedic episodes with relatively few outright awful episodes". That is a fair, reasonably objective assessment of TOS. It is a far cry from the legendary "intellectually deep, complex collection of morality plays that always made you think" fable it has become, over time, to some.

I would agree with one addendum, bolded above. That said, TNG did attempt more morality plays, but that could simply be due to it's longer original run, rather than actual percentages. I tend to think that Roddenberry was trying for a show that was more thought-provoking (in general) than was on TV at the time (of TOS), but was given more freedom in TNG. I will analyze the available data.

Pray, Sir, what do you teach?
 

Originally Posted by Ovation
It was NEVER as "intellectually deep" or "complex" as you are trying to suggest. It is this kind of misplaced nostalgia for something that never was...


Overgeek said: While the whole was not always that deep or complex, there certainly are instances of it from every series. That there are past episodes that were quite thought-provoking for their time as far back as TOS proves you wrong. Some deep and complex episodes do exist. That is not nostalgia but fact.
Ovation said: It does not "prove me wrong". On the contrary, in the case of the particular post to which I was responding, it proves me correct.
Overgeek said: That some TOS episodes exist that were thought-provoking, intellectual, and deep proves that your statement of "NEVER" is wrong. Even a single thought-provoking episode would falsify your "NEVER" statement.
Actually, my "never" is directed at tfarr's statement "at its soul" (an assertion not supported by the evidence). It is not a blanket statement about whether or not Trek ever had any thought-provoking episodes at all.
"Some deep and complex episodes" (leaving aside the level of "depth and complexity" for the moment) does not equate to "at its very soul [Trek] was a show designed to make you think...". That is a generalization unsupported by the evidence.
That was not my claim.
Again, I was addressing tfarr, not you. Sorry if I was unclear.
The "flawed nostalgia" to which I refer is the notion, as I alluded to above in a slightly different context, that the PRIMARY purpose of Trek was to "make you think". That it sometimes did is NOT proof that that was its primary purpose.
Correct. At times it was thought-provoking, but surely not "it's heart and soul." Agreed. However, that also further proves that your claim of "NEVER" is false.
Perhaps unnecessary, but for the sake of clarity--"never" was aimed at the notion that Trek was anywhere near as "thought-provoking" as tfarr implies. His statement is not supported by the evidence and it is clear that he (or she) views Trek in a way that is not borne out by the facts. While Trek had some shows that meet (arguably) the criteria you and he have proposed (in different degrees from each other), I stand by my statement that it "never" met those criteria to the level at which tfarr believes.

Moreover, it did not "make you think" all that hard (while I would enjoy going through the list of episodes to further illustrate my argument, I do not have time to do so this evening).

I do not deny that Trek "made you think" more than some, perhaps most, other shows on TV. But that quality, relative to other entertainment on TV, is not proof positive of any great depth or complexity relative to other sources beyond entertainment.
It is in this context that I will agree that there is nostalgia. Yes, it was thought-provoking by comparison to other TV series of the time, but it was thought-provoking for a TV series, not on some great intellectual level. It was thought-provoking for its target audience, the under 30-year-olds of the 60s. Those episodes of Trek are basically Aesop's Fables, not Charles Dickens.
And you've now summed up my view quite nicely.

Pray, Sir, what do you teach?
History.

(apologies for the strange formatting--when I used the quote "button", it erased half the post, so I did a copy/paste)
 
No. Star Trek was (and remains) pop culture entertainment that occasionally managed to "make you think". "At its very soul", it was intended to make money and entertain viewers in a modestly original fashion.

If Gene had created Star Trek solely to make money and to entertain, I don't think he would have made a science fiction show. He would have tried to make something that would maximize one of those two goals. Unless he just wasn't very good at the whole capitalism thing.
There were other sci-fi shows on TV at the time, so it was not an unprecedented move. This is a weak argument as stated.

The other science fiction that was on TV at the time was of a very different nature. They frequently pit "man vs. alien" or "man vs. robot". Fear of the unknown was the primary mechanism used to entertain. Star Trek was different in that exploration and analysis of the unknown was the mechanism.

Ah. This gem again. I've yet to see any credible evidence of this claim. It has, through the force of repetition, become a legendary rallying cry for those who cling to the "Trek was so intellectual back in the day" view.

NBC reportedly called the pilot "too cerebral", "too intellectual", and "too slow" with "not enough action"

(see Shatner, William (2008). Up Till Now: The Autobiography. New York: Thomas Dunne Books. pp. 119. ISBN 0-312-37265-5.)

I would argue that engaging people's minds was in fact one of the core design principles behind Star Trek. Just look at the multi-racial cast. Was having a Russian, Japanese, and African American woman on the bridge done just on a whim? I don't think anyone would argue that the reason for it was to make people think and consider that race and color don't matter and that we can accomplish amazing things if we work together.
What is "deep and complex" about the idea that "we should all get along"? It is not a bad lesson, but it is not especially intellectually challenging, either.

I never said that Star Trek needed to be "deep and complex". I said that Star Trek, at it's soul tried to make people think and engage our minds.

Although Gene Roddenberry publicly marketed it as a Western in outer space, a so-called "Wagon Train to the Stars", he privately told friends that he was actually modeling it on Swift's Gulliver's Travels, intending each episode to act on two levels, first as a suspenseful adventure story, but also as a morality parable.

(See David Alexander, "Star Trek Creator.The Authorized Biography of Gene Roddenberry" and interview with Roddenberry in "Something about the Author" by Gale Research Company and chapter 11 of "Trash Culture: Popular Culture and the Great Tradition" by Richard Keller Simon)

I'd say that's evidence that one of the core goals of Star Trek was to make people think. Why else tell a morality parable?

Getting to your response to my example... You're trying to quantify things. How cerebral does the message have to be to make you think? And the concept that we should "all just get along" might seem like common sense to you and I... in the year 2009. But to a racially divided country in the 1960's?

I think African American's who lived and struggled through that era would argue that not only did having Uhura on the bridge make the racially unenlightened of the day think, but it also made African Americans think. It engaged their minds, showing them that they could be anything or do anything.

Having Uhura kiss Captain Kirk could have gotten the show cancelled and could have (and probably did) offend the rather racially unenlightened white culture at the time. That's awfully contradictory to the goal of just trying to make a buck and entertain!
Controversy, even in the 1960s, was more often than not a selling point for TV programming, provided it was not too over the top. Beyond that, the network had right of veto BEFORE broadcasting, and the network certainly would not have broadcast it if it thought it was going to hurt the bottom line. As for the kiss itself, again, not a bad lesson ("racism is bad"). Just not a "deep and complex" one that requires a great deal of thought.

Just as before, you're quantifying things. All I'm saying is that it makes you think. And you're viewing the issue as someone who doesn't suffer from the mental deficiency that is racism. To someone who is racist, showing that interracial kiss might just make them think and challenge their preconceived notions about how Whites and African Americans can interact.
 
It’s been a difficult road to travel to commit to this opinion; after all, there’s been so much fun and anticipation over the last two years on this board--SHOUTING SPOCK, Blue Warp Nacelles, the sombreros, Badass Robau and, of course, the Generic Parody Thread which was the reason I registered after lurking for years. And I’ve really had a wonderful time looking forward to the premier with everyone on this forum. But I’ll just say it.

Star Trek is not good. I watched it twice, and, after careful consideration, I don’t like it.

I considered titling this “Thread for People of Conflicted Opinion,” because that’s also how I feel right now. Sitting in the theater, surrounded by lots of other people, watching the movie was very enjoyable. I laughed when we were expected to laugh, I cried at Kirk’s birth and over Spock and Sarek’s conversation on the transporter pad. I loved seeing Nimoy again. All the new actors had their characters spot-on. I dug the references to all the past Trek productions. And yet, somehow, a malaise set in over the course of the film and as it entered the third act I felt unfulfilled as a viewer. After my friends and I left the theater opening night, having enjoyed ourselves immensely, I got to wondering why it seemed like I hadn’t had as good a time as I thought I had. When I get right down to it, I asked myself “Was this a good movie?”

And my gut reaction was: “no.”

Sure, it was fun, funny, moving, energetic, shiny, charming, charismatic, and all the things that should make for a great film, but somehow they didn’t gel, and I can’t escape the impression of the movie as a fast-talking car salesman who keeps the patter going so you feel good and don’t notice that you’re being fleeced.

It’s difficult to articulate why; I’m one of those people who often finds that others can articulate how I feel about things better than I can, and so I often look to other posters to find a better version of what I wish I could post. But in this case, the majority opinion is that ST is very, very good. And I’m happy for them; it’s the reaction we’d all been hoping for, and that I’d been wishing to experience myself. And while there is a dissenting minority, it seems to consist of whiny unhappy fanboys whose primary concern is keeping things in line with a stilted checklist of minutiae from past productions; these two viewpoints find themselves at odds in every thread of this forum and stifle productive discussion about the merits and failings of the movie and how things could have or should have been improved. Hell, the one thread here where some of that seemed to be happening got shut down as a result of actions by two of the film’s supporters. I think there are grounds for serious critiques of what Abrams and company have created, yet it can’t seem to find a voice around here thanks to a polarization of the forum that had its groundwork laid years ago.

So I’m left to wonder: where is the constructive criticism? The input from people who don’t think this movie is all that but still want to see it, or some variation of it, succeed? Are constructive criticisms or grey-area opinions even possible? Because I’m not against the concept of a reboot, or rejuvenation, or remake, or whatever you want to call it; quite the contrary. The promise of JJTrek was more than we’d seen in years, and on some level I’m upset that I don’t feel the way about the movie that I’d hoped I would. But the whole production was so glib, so willing to crack the joke or take the teeth out of the drama by pulling some silly-but-entertaining stunt that it was all too often impossible to invest emotionally in what was happening. It seems to be failing of a lot of Hollywood films these days, to use character drama to set up a final, third-act fight, which, once underway, makes characterization extraneous and that reduces the finale to a string of meaningless punches and explosions. That’s not where I wanted to see these characters or this world go, and I don’t know that there’s a place here any more for this kind of discussion, at least not as a way to score a cheap shot against the other side.

So...what say you, denizens of the Trek XI forum? Am I alone on this?


I think it's a good movie. But I don't think it's a great one. And I suspect that it is a bit overrated. After I saw STAR TREK, I went to see the new X-MEN movie about Wolverine. Much to my surprise, I found myself enjoying it more than STAR TREK. It's not a great movie, either. But I thought it was slightly better and more interesting than STAR TREK.
 
How's this for cerebral:

The movie is shit. People who like it can turn in their comm badges.

This movie is made to entertain the mass audience.

Here's the standard: If you liked it more than it made you angry then you're not a true fan. Go back to reality.

Me, I'd rather wallow in this silly bulletin board debating fictional characters because they mean something to me.
 
Just the basics:
  • Coincidence of Narada landing on top of the Kelvin.
  • Every movie has to hinge on something. The destruction of the Kelvin served as that role in this film.
    [*]That 800 people were saved by what looked like maybe a dozen shuttles.
  • Nitpicking. Totally irrelevant.
    [*]That in a time of warp drive, transporters, shuttles, and hoverbikes there are still roads.
  • That Kirk not only drove a car but also a motorbike with wheels tells you why.
    [*]The "antique" car with modern tech (Nokia dashboard phone / ipod).
  • Aaaand?
    [*]That the Beastie Boys would last for 200 years.
  • Yeah, nobody today listens to Beethoven and Mozart anymore...
    [*]The robot-cop.
  • There was no such thing.
    [*]A stupidly reckless Kirk (a la driving the car into the quarry) would survive till he's 25.
  • He did. Deal with it.
    [*]That logical Vulcan children would not only harass Spock, but to it so often that he's counted up to 35 attempts.
  • Funny moment in the movie. Reference back to TAS.
    [*]That a cadet could hack the schools testing computers.
  • First mentioned in TWOK. Your point?
    [*]That a cadet smart enough to hack the schools testing computers would look good.
  • see above
    [*]That Tyler Perry's funny enough to become head of Starfleet Academy.
  • Huh?
    [*]That Sulu would be smart enough to get through Starfleet Academy, reach an actual rank (unlike some of the others), and still not know about the parking breaks.
  • Funny moment. He also got lost in a Park, remember?
    [*]That Pike's dissertation would be read by Kirk, but apparently no one else.
  • Is that so surprising? It's about his father.
    [*]That the moment the phrase "lightning storm in space" was uttered a second time, no one would think to check the ships computer for something so bizarre.
  • The Kelvin incident was 25 years ago. Besides the 'emergency' on Vulcan is more important at that moment.
    [*]OR THAT PIKE (WHO WROTE THE DAMNED DISSERTATION ABOUT THE LIGHTNING STORM IN SPACE) WAS SITTING RIGHT BEHIND CHEKOV WHEN HE SAID LIGHTNING STORM IN SPACE STILL HAD NO IDEA WHAT THE HELL WAS GOING ON.
  • He didn't make the connection, because he didn't know about the Romulan attack on that Klingon fleet.
    [*]That Pike would promote Kirk to first officer above everyone else on the ship.
  • Well, since he made Spock Captain, and he obviously doesn't know the new crew of the Enterprise all that well he chose Kirk for that position since he knew that Kirk had the potential and the abilities to command.
    [*]That no one thought to attack the cable of the drilling beam until the finale.
  • They did. In a way that wouldn't put the Enterprise in danger.
    [*]That they had to drill into a planet so the black hole would consume it.
  • So that this artificial black hole could amass enough mass to crush Vulcan from the inside.
    [*]That there was a lightning storm near Vulcan, when that effect only happens when red matter is used to make a time hole.
  • That 'lightning storm' happend near the Neutral Zone.
    [*]That 47 Klingon ships were destroyed but Starfleet sent 7 vessels to handle it.
  • Those ships were sent to assist Vulcan, not the Klingons. Didn't you pay attention?
    [*]The flagship of the Federation had a cadets in all the hot jobs.
  • That's because she wasn't supposed to head out yet.
    [*]That Vulcan, as a space-faring species (for nearly 2000 years at the time of the movie) wouldn't have a single colony or Class M planet with a sizable population on it.
  • There are the Romulans and the Mintakans... can't think of any others right now.
    [*]That Vulcan had no planetary defenses. No shuttles and no ships of their own to evac the populace.
  • All 6.000.000.000 of them?
    [*]Or, that as members / citizens of the Federation there would only be 10,000 Vulcans that either directly survived the loss of their homeworld or happened to be off planet at the time (everyone's Pon Farr must have hit at exactly the same time).
  • What's so odd about that number? We know Vulcans tend to keep to themselves.
    [*]That Spock would jettison Kirk to the ice planet.
  • Only shows that Spock wasn't fit for command anymore at that point.
    [*]That no one objected to Spock jettisoning Kirk to the ice planet.
  • He still was the Captain.
    [*]That Kirk happened to land next door to stranded Spock.
  • A coincident. One we have to live with.
    [*]That no one else on the entire ship thought about the emotionally compromised Spock. Or thought to relieve him of command. Especially since the command structure is so willy-nilly.
  • Because he didn't actually act irrationally (besides marooning Kirk on Delta Vega, near a Starfleet outpost)
    [*]That the ice planet just happens to have Scotty and the umpa-lumpa.
  • A coincidence. On we have to live with. And why all this gripe about his assistant?
    [*]Spock gave Scotty the transwarp beaming equation. (That was a great call back to ST4 though).
  • You got it.
    [*]It took under 5 minutes to warp to Vulcan from Earth. But it takes 20 minutes or more to get back to Earth from Vulcan. Guess they were fighting a head wind...
  • It did not take under five minutes to get to Vulcan. Whatever gives you that idea?
    [*]Kirk's promotion at the end.
  • Yeah! Kirk in command of the Enterprise! Ready for the sequel. :techman:
 
I think Roddenberry made it clear in interview that Star Trek was meant to be more that just mindless entertainment. Entertaining? Sure, but not without any depth or message.
 
Now that I think about it, the movie sells out in many ways. Action before plot, revitalizing an old franchise to sell off of familiarity (look at Batman, Transformers, Marvel Comics, the new J.I. Joe film, etc), obvious appeals to a younger audience, and even throws in a Nokia product placement. There is so much about this film that is purely profit driven that it is a bit shocking that the dissenting voices make for a very small minority.

Above any of the numerous criticisms you can make against the film, my biggest gripe was its lack of intellectual appeal. When I left the theater, all I could feel was that this was a very good action movie. There were no thought provoking esoteric questions lingering in my mind, no reason to dwell into the flaws of humanity or anything that makes me question my perception of the world. Sure, not every Trek episode was a gripping exploration of the human condition, but at least I had something to gnaw my teeth into. Voyager's EMH is more interesting on a cerebral level than this entire movie. With the EMH, I can wonder whether holograms should be accepted as sentient beings or mere technology, ponder about difficult medical decisions he's had to made (killing Tuvix, for example), contrast the limitations and advantages of a holographic life to my own, and many more things, and this is all from one character of what is considered to be a somewhat weak show. What powerful pervading themes does this movie have? I've seen Spock/Kirk's friendship being brought up a lot here, which implies the whole cultural acceptance idea, but that's both simplistic and cliché'd.
 
I think Roddenberry made it clear in interview that Star Trek was meant to be more that just mindless entertainment. Entertaining? Sure, but not without any depth or message.
Roddenberry's track record with the truth and modesty leave much to be desired. I don't think we should spend much time considering how he would feel about this movie, that shouldn't play any part in what you and I think about this movie as a movie.
 
I think Roddenberry made it clear in interview that Star Trek was meant to be more that just mindless entertainment. Entertaining? Sure, but not without any depth or message.
Roddenberry's track record with the truth and modesty leave much to be desired. I don't think we should spend much time considering how he would feel about this movie, that shouldn't play any part in what you and I think about this movie as a movie.

My post was not about liking or not the movie. It was about the other poster which claimed Star Trek was always only about mindless action/adventure. Its clearly not the case while you watch all Star Trek series. The creator of Star Trek also state otherwise. I do like mindless action movies when they are well done as much as the next man. But, I've always considered Star Trek to be a little more than this. I also like other hollywood movies with more depth such as Batman Returns, 12 Monkeys, Truman Show, Gattaca or even The Island. They are not in the 2001 range but they manage to be both entertaining and with some depth at the same time. I think its what Roddenberry was going for when he created Star Trek.
 
My post was not about liking or not the movie. It was about the other poster which claimed Star Trek was always only about mindless action/adventure. Its clearly not the case while you watch all Star Trek series. The creator of Star Trek also state otherwise. I do like mindless action movies when they are well done as much as the next man. But, I've always considered Star Trek to be a little more than this. I also like other hollywood movies with more depth such as Batman Returns, 12 Monkeys, Truman Show, Gattaca or even The Island. They are not in the 2001 range but they manage to be both entertaining and with some depth at the same time. I think its what Roddenberry was going for when he created Star Trek.
I didn't mean to single you out, but in some ways Roddenberry has become a heroic figure with a "vision" when the truth is that he was a television producer earning a living. No doubt he loved and cared about Star Trek, but I am a little bitter about how he hampered the potential for drama in the TNG series by forcing the writers to make humans "perfect".

When I think of the reasons why I don't like this new movie the lack of interesting ideas is one of the big things I will point to, but it isn't because that is what Gene Roddenberry would have wanted, it is because it is what I want. Star Trek is many things to many people, but to me it was always more than just mindless fun.
 
If Gene had created Star Trek solely to make money and to entertain, I don't think he would have made a science fiction show. He would have tried to make something that would maximize one of those two goals. Unless he just wasn't very good at the whole capitalism thing.
There were other sci-fi shows on TV at the time, so it was not an unprecedented move. This is a weak argument as stated.

The other science fiction that was on TV at the time was of a very different nature. They frequently pit "man vs. alien" or "man vs. robot". Fear of the unknown was the primary mechanism used to entertain. Star Trek was different in that exploration and analysis of the unknown was the mechanism.
This somewhat different emphasis (not all that different when we consider "The Man Trap"--the first broadcast episode) does not refute my original point--that the PRIMARY purpose was to entertain and make money. I did not say the SOLE purpose was to entertain and make money. But if it were not the PRIMARY purpose of the show in the 1960s, we would not be having this exchange--no network would have given it a shot.



NBC reportedly called the pilot "too cerebral", "too intellectual", and "too slow" with "not enough action"

(see Shatner, William (2008). Up Till Now: The Autobiography. New York: Thomas Dunne Books. pp. 119. ISBN 0-312-37265-5.)
I have no doubt William Shatner sincerely believes this. Nor do I doubt most people who are aware of this sincerely believe it. Sincere belief, however, does not constitute proof. The word "reportedly", to me, makes room for some doubt. Moreover, in my line of work, to make such a claim as unequivocally as it is made here and elsewhere requires actual evidence (a memo, minutes of a meeting, a note from one of the network executives to Roddenberry, something tangible). Many things acquire the "force of truth" with repeated tellings (for a good, and entertaining, visual example of this, watch The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance). I'm not saying it is categorically impossible for the network execs to have voiced this opinion. I even consider it likely (knowing what I know about what happens between "pitch" and "final product" in film and television). However, I've yet to see reference to actual evidence beyond hearsay.

But let's leave aside the absence of actual evidence and address the opinion. The comments about "too cerebral" are far more likely (in particular after having seen The Cage) reflective of the network execs' poor opinion of the intelligence of the audience than a sign that the pilot was exceptionally intellectually challenging. Moreover, complaints were also lodged against the "eroticism" of the story (in 1964, such a view of elements of The Cage is quite understandable). That objection is rarely mentioned anymore, but it serves to diffuse the idea that a "cerebral quality" was the only culprit from the network's perspective. That the network lacked confidence in the audience's collective intelligence is a reasonable inference. That the pilot was actually too complicated to understand is not so evident.

I never said that Star Trek needed to be "deep and complex". I said that Star Trek, at it's soul tried to make people think and engage our minds.

Although Gene Roddenberry publicly marketed it as a Western in outer space, a so-called "Wagon Train to the Stars", he privately told friends that he was actually modeling it on Swift's Gulliver's Travels, intending each episode to act on two levels, first as a suspenseful adventure story, but also as a morality parable.

(See David Alexander, "Star Trek Creator.The Authorized Biography of Gene Roddenberry" and interview with Roddenberry in "Something about the Author" by Gale Research Company and chapter 11 of "Trash Culture: Popular Culture and the Great Tradition" by Richard Keller Simon)

I'd say that's evidence that one of the core goals of Star Trek was to make people think. Why else tell a morality parable?
Here I will remain sceptical. As an historian, I have an abiding distrust of "authorized biographies", as well as the recollections of the principal subjects of such books and interviews. I am unfamiliar with Mr. Simon's work, so I'll reserve judgment.

Getting to your response to my example... You're trying to quantify things. How cerebral does the message have to be to make you think? And the concept that we should "all just get along" might seem like common sense to you and I... in the year 2009. But to a racially divided country in the 1960's?
It's not a matter of "quantity", with regards to an individual message (it is a matter of "quantity" when it comes to claiming that a show had, as its PRIMARY purpose, wanting "to make you think"--a separate issue I will address below). With regards to an individual message, its complexity and sophistication determine whether it makes people think. "We should all just get along" was NOT a radical concept in the 1960s. HOW we should go about doing it was the source of much debate. Certainly the muli-racial/ethnic/cultural composition of the main cast was a progressive message (something not at all uncommon in Hollywood in the latter half of the 1960s), but it did not require much contemplation. It affirmed a truism. And even then, women and people of colour were relegated to secondary and tertiary positions. The effort was laudable. But it was not revolutionary. (Pop culture portrayals of progressive ideas is in week twelve of my US in the 1960s class--if you want something that was more sophisticated and revolutionary about race relations in America, re-watch the original Planet of the Apes and read Eric Greene's work on the subject).

I think African American's who lived and struggled through that era would argue that not only did having Uhura on the bridge make the racially unenlightened of the day think, but it also made African Americans think. It engaged their minds, showing them that they could be anything or do anything.
For the relative few who watched it, perhaps. It would be wise to remember that the show was not watched all that much (else it would not have struggled in the ratings and been cancelled so swiftly) and its initial influence on popular culture was rather more limited than is commonly believed.

Having Uhura kiss Captain Kirk could have gotten the show cancelled and could have (and probably did) offend the rather racially unenlightened white culture at the time. That's awfully contradictory to the goal of just trying to make a buck and entertain!
Controversy, even in the 1960s, was more often than not a selling point for TV programming, provided it was not too over the top. Beyond that, the network had right of veto BEFORE broadcasting, and the network certainly would not have broadcast it if it thought it was going to hurt the bottom line. As for the kiss itself, again, not a bad lesson ("racism is bad"). Just not a "deep and complex" one that requires a great deal of thought.

Just as before, you're quantifying things. All I'm saying is that it makes you think. And you're viewing the issue as someone who doesn't suffer from the mental deficiency that is racism. To someone who is racist, showing that interracial kiss might just make them think and challenge their preconceived notions about how Whites and African Americans can interact.
It is affirming another truism.

As I noted in my exchanges with Overgeeked, I have not denied that Trek tried to present messages, nor that it attempted to "make you think". What I do object to, and what the evidence does not support, is the notion that Trek's PRIMARY purpose was "to make you think". If that were true, there are quite a number of episodes that would not have made "the cut". I also reject the notion that is either implied or directly stated, by many here and elsewhere, that Trek was nearly as sophisticated and intellectually challenging as it has come to be portrayed in hindsight. One of the common complaints of people who did not like the movie is that it is not "real Star Trek". Implicit or explicit in that complaint is the notion that "real Star Trek" was something more important than "mere entertainment". That notion rests on a "flawed nostalgia" that has, over the years, exaggerated both the sophistication of Trek and the importance of "lessons"--helped in no small part by a self-serving revisionism on the part of Roddenberry.

It's not that Trek had no messages or did not make one think at all. It's that Trek's messages, when present, were not all that revolutionary and it did not require much strenuous thinking to understand them. And Trek also presented stories that were primarily "fun" rather than "morality plays". So to dismiss the new film on the grounds that it cannot be "real Trek" for its apparent lack of a "message" is disingenuous. There are many legitimate flaws in the new movie upon which to hang one's dislike. We need not invent others.
 
Re: I’ll just go ahead and say it: I don’t like Star Trek.

How's this for cerebral:

The movie is shit. People who like it can turn in their comm badges.

This movie is made to entertain the mass audience.

Here's the standard: If you liked it more than it made you angry then you're not a true fan. Go back to reality.

Me, I'd rather wallow in this silly bulletin board debating fictional characters because they mean something to me.

Nice parody. :lol:
 
Given that Star Trek, at it's very soul was a show designed to make you think... if you take that aspect away to appeal to the masses, is it really still Star Trek?
No. Star Trek was (and remains) pop culture entertainment that occasionally managed to "make you think". "At its very soul", it was intended to make money and entertain viewers in a modestly original fashion.

If Gene had created Star Trek solely to make money and to entertain, I don't think he would have made a science fiction show. He would have tried to make something that would maximize one of those two goals. Unless he just wasn't very good at the whole capitalism thing.

The pilot episode was even rejected for being too intellectual!

It was NEVER as "intellectually deep" or "complex" as you are trying to suggest. It is this kind of misplaced nostalgia for something that never was that is interfering with some people's enjoyment of the new film (before someone jumps down my throat, this does not mean the new film is flawless and beyond reproach--it does mean that criticizing the new film because of something that was never a part of Trek to the degree suggested here is a largely unfounded criticism. Plot holes are one thing, this is another.)

Ahh I see. I have criticized the new movie and in doing so I am some how interfering with other people's enjoyment of it? If someone doesn't want their opinion of this film challenged, why would they be reading a thread titled "I’ll just go ahead and say it: I don’t like Star Trek."?

Fantastic argument. Your defense is to accuse me of having misplaced nostalgia? That's like just saying "No, you remember it wrong." Instead of telling me what or how I remember Star Trek as being, why don't you prove to me that Star Trek didn't try to make people think as one of it's very core aspects?

I would argue that engaging people's minds was in fact one of the core design principles behind Star Trek. Just look at the multi-racial cast. Was having a Russian, Japanese, and African American woman on the bridge done just on a whim? I don't think anyone would argue that the reason for it was to make people think and consider that race and color don't matter and that we can accomplish amazing things if we work together.

Having Uhura kiss Captain Kirk could have gotten the show cancelled and could have (and probably did) offend the rather racially unenlightened white culture at the time. That's awfully contradictory to the goal of just trying to make a buck and entertain!

Well actually Gene wrote a lot of TV, alot of it was rejected, because he tried to incorporate to many of his "Perfect Utopian" Ideas. This is one of the reasons TNG had such a rough first season. Gene was never a UBERSUCCESSFUL writer, he got VERY Lucky with Trek seeing as his other Sci Fi series like Genesis II ever failed to materialze until after his Death and heavy re-writing by other writers (Andromeda, Earth Final:Conflict)

Gene didn't pitch Star Trek as "Intellectual Sci Fi" when he sold it to NBC. He sold it as a "Space Western" A "Wagon Train to the Stars" he never sold the show as something more than entertainment and you can find all this stuff by googling about it, not listening to the Fans who cuddle up in corners with the Roddenberry statuettes in the dark corners of their abodes thinking he was the greatest writer ever.

Gene had A LOT of help creating some of the greater Stories of Trek Dorothy Fontana would like to have a word with the people who keep saying Gene wrote most of the "Intellectual" Episodes of Star Trek, because quite frankly She penned alot of great stuff.

And as much of a whiney bitch as he is Harlan Ellison still holds as writing the best TOS Episode ever. "City on the Edge of Forever"
 
Wagon Train to the Stars" he never sold the show as something more than entertainment and you can find all this stuff by googling about it, not listening to the Fans who cuddle up in corners with the Roddenberry statuettes in the dark corners of their abodes thinking he was the greatest writer ever.

Gene had A LOT of help creating some of the greater Stories of Trek Dorothy Fontana would like to have a word with the people who keep saying Gene wrote most of the "Intellectual" Episodes of Star Trek, because quite frankly She penned alot of great stuff.

I have to agree on the Roddenberry part. There seems to be a tendency to build him up as some sort of messiah figure, leading the way to some glorious future. He was not the perfect writer/creator that many claim, in fact i think some of his ideas for future Trek films are worse than the drivel currently in the cinema- Spock travelling back in time to kill JFK anyone? i'd rather stick with Darth Nero.

The fact that such glorifying of Roddenberry usually completely ignores the fantastic work of Fontana and others is even more of a shame.

And as much of a whiney bitch as he is Harlan Ellison still holds as writing the best TOS Episode ever. "City on the Edge of Forever"

And by God he will never let them forget it. I half expected him to file another lawsuit because the word "City" was spoken in a Star Trek film involving timetravel.
 
He was not the perfect writer/creator that many claim, in fact i think some of his ideas for future Trek films are worse than the drivel currently in the cinema- Spock travelling back in time to kill JFK anyone? i'd rather stick with Darth Nero.

Sorry, but that's something you have to cite sources on.
 
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