I’ll just go ahead and say it: I don’t like Star Trek.

[startrekwatcher]

It is not a matter of how long Eric Bana was on screen. I found him to be an effective villain who had a presence in the movie even when he was not on screen. Every action he did the cast had to react to. He showed he did not need to be ultra hands on because his Crew respected him, and carried out his orders. If a captain has to be super hands on with a ton of crew around him, how effective is his leading ability. His motives were shown pretty well through his actions. He said what he needed to say and he was utterly psychotic when he did not get what he wanted. And I picked all that up from 5 minutes of Screen time.

He was a paper thin antagonist with cliched motives that weren't the least bit interesting. If you are going to do something so monumental as permanently change Trek history by destroying Vulcan I would hope the writers would have created a villian worthy of doing so. I expect my villians to be intriguing and smart not just a cardboard cut-out.

The funny thing is B&B did a much better job with the whole Xindi arc than the writers did with how they handled Nero and Vulcan's destruction. In fact, the bitching would be off the scale if B&B had executed this film and blew up Vulcan just for spectacle without giving it some emotional context yet for some odd reason Orci & Kurtzman get a pass.

Why not actually watch a movie instead of always looking with a critical eye at it.

I actually am pretty easy-going when it comes to entertainment. I've let things pass that others rail on but I can't help it if the cumulative weaknesses, including a half-baked villian, prevent me from being totally satisfied with the final product. When I'm constantly being taken out of the film experience because of poor writing there is no amount of suspension of disbelief I can muster to overcome it.

 

[ClayHefner]

Half Baked villain= Samson Simpson

 

[Qonos]

It is not a matter of how long Eric Bana was on screen. I found him to be an effective villain who had a presence in the movie even when he was not on screen. Every action he did the cast had to react to. He showed he did not need to be ultra hands on because his Crew respected him, and carried out his orders. If a captain has to be super hands on with a ton of crew around him, how effective is his leading ability. His motives were shown pretty well through his actions. He said what he needed to say and he was utterly psychotic when he did not get what he wanted. And I picked all that up from 5 minutes of Screen time.

He was a paper thin antagonist with cliched motives that weren't the least bit interesting. If you are going to do something so monumental as permanently change Trek history by destroying Vulcan I would hope the writers would have created a villian worthy of doing so. I expect my villians to be intriguing and smart not just a cardboard cut-out.

The funny thing is B&B did a much better job with the whole Xindi arc than the writers did with how they handled Nero and Vulcan's destruction. In fact, the bitching would be off the scale if B&B had executed this film and blew up Vulcan just for spectacle without giving it some emotional context yet for some odd reason Orci & Kurtzman get a pass.

Why not actually watch a movie instead of always looking with a critical eye at it.

I actually am pretty easy-going when it comes to entertainment. I've let things pass that others rail on but I can't help it if the cumulative weaknesses, including a half-baked villian, prevent me from being totally satisfied with the final product. When I'm constantly being taken out of the film experience because of poor writing there is no amount of suspension of disbelief I can muster to overcome it.

I found him to be pretty 3 dimensional, because I paid attention to the whole movie. Orci and Kurtzman are not Bludgeon writers, they are alot more subtle and spread out the backstory throughout the whole movie. The mind meld with Kirk helped explain Neros motivation as much as it gave us Spocks backstory. The movie weaved a tapestry, admittedly not one that would be hung in a museum, more like the ones native americans sell to tourists by the roadside, but sometimes Kitch is nice.

 

[startrekwatcher]

I found him to be pretty 3 dimensional, because I paid attention to the whole movie.

We'll have to agree to disagree because the last thing I would describe Nero as is three-dimensional.

Orci and Kurtzman are not Bludgeon writers, they are alot more subtle and spread out the backstory throughout the whole movie. The mind meld with Kirk helped explain Neros motivation as much as it gave us Spocks backstory.

That flimsy thirty second mindmeld serving as anemic exposition was one of the worst parts of the film. It didn't clear up squat. It was vague and thin both in regards to fleshing out Nero but also the details of the disaster. For all the talk about XI's accessibility to new fans, I would think they would be totally lost regarding Amb Spock's backstory or the dynamics among Vulcans/Romulans or their shared history other than they look alike. Instead, we are suppose to read a comic.

 

[Qonos]

I found him to be pretty 3 dimensional, because I paid attention to the whole movie.

We'll have to agree to disagree because the last thing I would describe Nero as is three-dimensional.

Orci and Kurtzman are not Bludgeon writers, they are alot more subtle and spread out the backstory throughout the whole movie. The mind meld with Kirk helped explain Neros motivation as much as it gave us Spocks backstory.

That flimsy thirty second mindmeld serving as anemic exposition was one of the worst parts of the film. It didn't clear up squat. It was vague and thin both in regards to fleshing out Nero but also the details of the disaster. Instead, we are suppose to read a comic.

I was going to be nice but you did that smug laughing face.

So You basically need your hand held and do not have a functioning brain of your own. You can not use context to put the pieces togther so must have everything spelled out for you. You are saying that when you watch a movie with a villain he must have a seven minute monolouge on why he is trying to destory the universe.

Basically you want all bad guys to be Bond villains.

I DID NOT Read Countdown. I watched the movie.. I got Neros motivation. He is pissed he lost his people, his family and felt betrayed because Spock Promised the federation would save them and they came to late. He lost his sanity and is obsessed with vengence and ensuring the Federation can never do that to his planet or any other planet ever again, and when he fails that he just wants to kill the man he percieves to be the source of his soul shattering pain.

I am so sorry YOU did not get that.

 

[TheGodBen]

He was a paper thin antagonist...

Toilet paper thin. That really cheap one-ply stuff you only find in bad public toilets.

In fact, the bitching would be off the scale if B&B had executed this film and blew up Vulcan just for spectacle without giving it some emotional context yet for some odd reason Orci & Kurtzman get a pass.

Ain't that the truth.

The mind meld with Kirk helped explain Neros motivation as much as it gave us Spocks backstory.

Show, show, show. Never tell. Spock's mind-meld was a short piece of exposition from Spock's point of view, we never got see things from Nero's point of view at all. That is an extremely important element in making a good villain, you have to see things from his point of view otherwise you have a one-sided conflict.

Annorax is similar to Nero in that Annorax has lost his home and is willing to destroy other worlds, but what makes Annorax a good and memorable villain is the fact that the story is told from his point of view just as much as from Voyager's. You can understand him, you can care about him even though you despise his actions.

Did you care about Nero? Did any part of you want Nero to succeed?

 

[JustKate]

^ Yeah. I liked the movie pretty well, but Nero...not a satisfying villain. He looked so cool, but other than that, he was pretty much Standard Issue Scifi Villian, which is a real shame.

 

[startrekwatcher]

So You basically need your hand held and do not have a functioning brain of your own. You can not use context to put the pieces togther so must have everything spelled out for you.

I have a perfectly functioning brain and I'm fully capable of following much more complicated, non-linear tv series with dozens of characters and a much more complex chronology than XI has. XI is far from complex. It is about as simple in its storytelling and ambition as one could possibly get. The problem I have is not being able to follow it because it is complicated but because it is so poorly written they make a muddle out of it.

You are saying that when you watch a movie with a villain he must have a seven minute monolouge on why he is trying to destory the universe.

No, I'm saying I prefer my villians to have plausible motivations and something a bit deeper than revenge and the well worn motive of the antagonist having lost his family. I had zero interest in Nero.

Basically you want all bad guys to be Bond villains.

That's rich considering you thought Nero was three-dimensional. Bond villians have more depth than poor Nero.

I am so sorry YOU did not get that.

I got it I just didn't want it.

 

[Qonos]

He was a paper thin antagonist...

Toilet paper thin. That really cheap one-ply stuff you only find in bad public toilets.

In fact, the bitching would be off the scale if B&B had executed this film and blew up Vulcan just for spectacle without giving it some emotional context yet for some odd reason Orci & Kurtzman get a pass.

Ain't that the truth.

The mind meld with Kirk helped explain Neros motivation as much as it gave us Spocks backstory.

Show, show, show. Never tell. Spock's mind-meld was a short piece of exposition from Spock's point of view, we never got see things from Nero's point of view at all. That is an extremely important element in making a good villain, you have to see things from his point of view otherwise you have a one-sided conflict.

Annorax is similar to Nero in that Annorax has lost his home and is willing to destroy other worlds, but what makes Annorax a good and memorable villain is the fact that the story is told from his point of view just as much as from Voyager's. You can understand him, you can care about him even though you despise his actions.

Did you care about Nero? Did any part of you want Nero to succeed?

No, Because he was an insane villain bent on Genocide. He had other options but he chose for revenge. He goes back 129 years and starts killing people. He could have taken the Narada to Romulus, given them the Red Matter (Once he captured Spock) and told them about the supernova.. He chose to go on a killing spree brought on by his grief and rage. His Hate for Spock and the Federation overloading his reason because he was in pain, a simple man with nothing happily doing his job (His own words talking to PIKE) and he comes home to see everything he loved destoryed infront of him. Powerless to save his world, his wife, and his UNBORN CHILD (remeber he says in the movie his wife was carrying his child)

Yeah but he is paper thin. Nothing taxing his mind, no depth at all, just Joe Q every Romulan put into a situation his mind could not wrap itself around.

But I am the wrong one here, because I actually watched the damn movie.

 

[Borgminister]

Crew introductions--no, not just the 5 minutes of reckless driving/drinking/fighting--took virtually the entire movie to accomplish.

The introductions were essentially done when Kirk assumed the chair at the end of the movie.

Yes, the villain left something to be desired, but was a decent enough vehicle for the movie to introduce us to the new cast and crew.

IMO, of course.

 

[Qonos]

So You basically need your hand held and do not have a functioning brain of your own. You can not use context to put the pieces togther so must have everything spelled out for you.

I have a perfectly functioning brain and I'm fully capable of following much more complicated, non-linear tv series with dozens of characters and a much more complex chronology than XI has. XI is far from complex. It is about as simple in its storytelling and ambition as one could possibly get. The problem I have is not being able to follow it because it is complicated but because it is so poorly written they make a muddle out of it.

You are saying that when you watch a movie with a villain he must have a seven minute monolouge on why he is trying to destory the universe.

No, I'm saying I prefer my villians to have plausible motivations and something a bit deeper than revenge and the well worn motive of the antagonist having lost his family. I had zero interest in Nero.

Basically you want all bad guys to be Bond villains.

That's rich considering you thought Nero was three-dimensional. Bond villians have more depth than poor Nero.

I am so sorry YOU did not get that.

I got it I just didn't want it.

I hope and this is not being mean, you never have to experiance losing someone you love because of someone elses actions. I hope your reality never takes your world away from you. I hope that you never actually be in the shoes of some one who loses everything because that is one of lifes greatest fears is to lose all you have and to try and figure out what to do to get it back or if you can not get it back how to get justice for it.

I am sorry Nero did not want world domination. I am sorry you feel having a realistic motivation of LOSING EVERYTHING is cliched. I am sorry you have no empathy in your heart for normal people and I am sorry our villain in this was not some Military genius trying to take over the federation, or some mad scientist trying to get back to some ribbon of time energy removed from the rest of the universe.

Nero had a lot more depth the two of my fellow posters here on this board.

 

[startrekwatcher]

I hope and this is not being mean, you never have to experiance losing someone you love because of someone elses actions. I hope your reality never takes your world away from you. I hope that you never actually be in the shoes of some one who loses everything because that is one of lifes greatest fears is to lose all you have and to try and figure out what to do to get it back or if you can not get it back how to get justice for it.

I'm not saying that this isn't a fair motivation I'm saying I had no investment in Nero, his wife, his unborn child so I wasn't the least bit interested in it. If you are going to do something like this it is essential the writers make you have an emotional understanding, if not an investment in it so that Nero is more of a tragic figure than a plot device inserted to drive the story.

 

[Sky]

I am sorry you have no empathy in your heart for normal people

First "no functioning brain", then "no empathy in your heart".

Somebody's taking other people's movie criticisms a little personally.

 

[Overgeeked]

oops

 

[Qonos]

I am sorry you have no empathy in your heart for normal people

First "no functioning brain", then "no empathy in your heart".

Somebody's taking other people's movie criticisms a little personally.

Hey I got the condecendy laughing face first Sky. Startrektalker took the gloves off first I am just firing back.

And taking empathy into account is important to a good review.

He also explained that he did not feel invested enough in the character. Had he said something like that with out the snark I would have been fine with it. I do not attack people for no reason. I give back what I am given if snark is started I am not letting it pass.

And yes I do debate with my real life friends like this and there are lots of Explatives passed around between us and the words "I am going to punch you in the f-n face" You can take what I say as Malicious if you want I really do not care. My opinon is Nero was a three dimension character, a bit weak, but no weaker than some villains we got in VOY, ENT, TOS, TNG... Especially ST V. Our Ulitmate Bad Guy is God... Who needs a starship. Nero was atleast more fleshed out than that.

BTW I will never Argue the Shinzon was not a fully fleshed out villian in Nem. In fact he was the best part of Nem. Everything else around him sucked though, Sadly

 

[Qonos]

Thank you very much. Why not actually watch a movie instead of always looking with a critical eye at it. It is not called Suspension of Disbelief to just sit there, PAY ATTENTION TO THE STORY instead of what the johns on level 12 look like in the enterprise. That is what later viewing is for. I went and saw a move, watched a movie, not looking for anything more than to pass time watching a movie with a woman I love and I was thouroughly entertained by the movie. The only thing that took me out of the movie was the theater was frakking antartica cold,.

You're right, Bana's screen time is irrelevant. Let's look at the story itself and ignore the silly bickering about the toilets and turbolifts.

The trouble is that most of the complaints are about how horrible the story is. How utterly unbelievable the story is. Not the SF tech and all that, but the story itself. Not nit-picking fanboy bs either. There are so many plot holes you could fly the Narada through them.

Not one of the below is a canon or technobabble quibble, just pure plot holes.

Just the basics:
Coincidence of Narada landing on top of the Kelvin.
That 800 people were saved by what looked like maybe a dozen shuttles.
That in a time of warp drive, transporters, shuttles, and hoverbikes there are still roads.
The "antique" car with modern tech (Nokia dashboard phone / ipod).
That the Beastie Boys would last for 200 years.
The robot-cop.
A stupidly reckless Kirk (a la driving the car into the quarry) would survive till he's 25.
That logical Vulcan children would not only harass Spock, but to it so often that he's counted up to 35 attempts.
That a cadet could hack the schools testing computers.
That a cadet smart enough to hack the schools testing computers would look good.
That Tyler Perry's funny enough to become head of Starfleet Academy.
That Sulu would be smart enough to get through Starfleet Academy, reach an actual rank (unlike some of the others), and still not know about the parking breaks.
That Pike's dissertation would be read by Kirk, but apparently no one else.
That the moment the phrase "lightning storm in space" was uttered a second time, no one would think to check the ships computer for something so bizarre.
OR THAT PIKE (WHO WROTE THE DAMNED DISSERTATION ABOUT THE LIGHTNING STORM IN SPACE) WAS SITTING RIGHT BEHIND CHEKOV WHEN HE SAID LIGHTNING STORM IN SPACE STILL HAD NO IDEA WHAT THE HELL WAS GOING ON.
That Pike would promote Kirk to first officer above everyone else on the ship.
That no one thought to attack the cable of the drilling beam until the finale.
That they had to drill into a planet so the black hole would consume it.
That there was a lightning storm near Vulcan, when that effect only happens when red matter is used to make a time hole.
That 47 Klingon ships were destroyed but Starfleet sent 7 vessels to handle it.
The flagship of the Federation had a cadets in all the hot jobs.
That Vulcan, as a space-faring species (for nearly 2000 years at the time of the movie) wouldn't have a single colony or Class M planet with a sizable population on it.
That Vulcan had no planetary defenses. No shuttles and no ships of their own to evac the populace.
Or, that as members / citizens of the Federation there would only be 10,000 Vulcans that either directly survived the loss of their homeworld or happened to be off planet at the time (everyone's Pon Farr must have hit at exactly the same time).
That Spock would jettison Kirk to the ice planet.
That no one objected to Spock jettisoning Kirk to the ice planet.
That Kirk happened to land next door to stranded Spock.
That no one else on the entire ship thought about the emotionally compromised Spock. Or thought to relieve him of command. Especially since the command structure is so willy-nilly.
That the ice planet just happens to have Scotty and the umpa-lumpa.
Spock gave Scotty the transwarp beaming equation. (That was a great call back to ST4 though).
It took under 5 minutes to warp to Vulcan from Earth. But it takes 20 minutes or more to get back to Earth from Vulcan. Guess they were fighting a head wind...
Kirk's promotion at the end.

I'm tired now. Nap time.

That is still three less coincidences than a Normal TV Episode. (I kid, it is percentage wise about the same amount as you would get in a regular Trek episode though)

 

[Overgeeked]

Thank you very much. Why not actually watch a movie instead of always looking with a critical eye at it. It is not called Suspension of Disbelief to just sit there, PAY ATTENTION TO THE STORY instead of what the johns on level 12 look like in the enterprise. That is what later viewing is for. I went and saw a move, watched a movie, not looking for anything more than to pass time watching a movie with a woman I love and I was thouroughly entertained by the movie. The only thing that took me out of the movie was the theater was frakking antartica cold,.

You're right, Bana's screen time is irrelevant. Let's look at the story itself and ignore the silly bickering about the toilets and turbolifts.

The trouble is that most of the complaints are about how horrible the story is. How utterly unbelievable the story is. Not the SF tech and all that, but the story itself. Not nit-picking fanboy bs either. There are so many plot holes you could fly the Narada through them.

Not one of the below is a canon or technobabble quibble, just pure plot holes.

Just the basics:

• Coincidence of Narada landing on top of the Kelvin.
• That 800 people were saved by what looked like maybe a dozen shuttles.
• That in a time of warp drive, transporters, shuttles, and hoverbikes there are still roads.
• The "antique" car with modern tech (Nokia dashboard phone / ipod).
• That the Beastie Boys would last for 200 years.
• The robot-cop.
• A stupidly reckless Kirk (a la driving the car into the quarry) would survive till he's 25.
• That logical Vulcan children would not only harass Spock, but to it so often that he's counted up to 35 attempts.
• That a cadet could hack the schools testing computers.
• That a cadet smart enough to hack the schools testing computers would look good.
• That Tyler Perry's funny enough to become head of Starfleet Academy.
• That Sulu would be smart enough to get through Starfleet Academy, reach an actual rank (unlike some of the others), and still not know about the parking breaks.
• That Pike's dissertation would be read by Kirk, but apparently no one else.
• That the moment the phrase "lightning storm in space" was uttered a second time, no one would think to check the ships computer for something so bizarre.
• OR THAT PIKE (WHO WROTE THE DAMNED DISSERTATION ABOUT THE LIGHTNING STORM IN SPACE) WAS SITTING RIGHT BEHIND CHEKOV WHEN HE SAID LIGHTNING STORM IN SPACE STILL HAD NO IDEA WHAT THE HELL WAS GOING ON.
• That Pike would promote Kirk to first officer above everyone else on the ship.
• That no one thought to attack the cable of the drilling beam until the finale.
• That they had to drill into a planet so the black hole would consume it.
• That there was a lightning storm near Vulcan, when that effect only happens when red matter is used to make a time hole.
• That 47 Klingon ships were destroyed but Starfleet sent 7 vessels to handle it.
• The flagship of the Federation had a cadets in all the hot jobs.
• That Vulcan, as a space-faring species (for nearly 2000 years at the time of the movie) wouldn't have a single colony or Class M planet with a sizable population on it.
• That Vulcan had no planetary defenses. No shuttles and no ships of their own to evac the populace.
• Or, that as members / citizens of the Federation there would only be 10,000 Vulcans that either directly survived the loss of their homeworld or happened to be off planet at the time (everyone's Pon Farr must have hit at exactly the same time).
• That Spock would jettison Kirk to the ice planet.
• That no one objected to Spock jettisoning Kirk to the ice planet.
• That Kirk happened to land next door to stranded Spock.
• That no one else on the entire ship thought about the emotionally compromised Spock. Or thought to relieve him of command. Especially since the command structure is so willy-nilly.
• That the ice planet just happens to have Scotty and the umpa-lumpa.
• Spock gave Scotty the transwarp beaming equation. (That was a great call back to ST4 though).
• It took under 5 minutes to warp to Vulcan from Earth. But it takes 20 minutes or more to get back to Earth from Vulcan. Guess they were fighting a head wind...
• Kirk's promotion at the end.

I'm tired now. Nap time.

 

[TheGodBen]

No, Because he was an insane villain bent on Genocide.

Bingo. Glad you agree with me.

He chose to go on a killing spree brought on by his grief and rage. His Hate for Spock and the Federation overloading his reason because he was in pain, a simple man with nothing happily doing his job (His own words talking to PIKE) and he comes home to see everything he loved destoryed infront of him. Powerless to save his world, his wife, and his UNBORN CHILD (remeber he says in the movie his wife was carrying his child)

Remember Gul Dukat? Remember that fascinating character from DS9 who was an understandable guy who did villainous things? Remember how he went mad after his daughter died? Remember how he became one-dimensional after that? Remember how he became evil and did evil things for the sake of the plot? Remember the cries of "character assassination" from the fans? Remember how most DS9 fans hated what was done to his character?

Here's the thing, Nero's character was assassinated before the movie even started. He may have been interesting before his family was killed, but we never saw that man and all we got to see was a bad villain.

Crew introductions--no, not just the 5 minutes of reckless driving/drinking/fighting--took virtually the entire movie to accomplish.

And this involved giant hands, monster chases and Scotty being trapped in a water-pipe... how?

 

[Overgeeked]

That is still three less coincidences than a Normal TV Episode. (I kid, it is percentage wise about the same amount as you would get in a regular Trek episode though)

There are two coincidences on that list. The rest are plot holes.

 

[Qonos]

TWOK how do you not realize that Ceti Alpha V has switch orbits with the destoryed Seti Alpha VI.. Especially if your character has been written in with knowledge of WHO KIRK MAROONED ON SETI ALPHA V.....

LIKE PLOT HOLES IN TREK ARE NEW?