Star Trek Novels and Canon

[SeerSGB]

Well here's something to think about: Why does it matter? Wouldn't, from a certain point of view, all the various continuity be canon, but not at the same time?

Think about it: Trek has exhibited that 'Trek happens within a multiverse; various alternate realities and timelines are a staple of 'Trek lore. So, wouldn't the novels be, effectively, nothing more than another layer on the multiverse?

That is if the reader/fan had to hell or high water reconcile the novels and the series.

 

[Therin of Andor]

it laid the groundwork for why Data's sacrifice was meaningful. It was cut because it slowed down the pace early in the film and pace rules all in cinema, but this was one cut that went too far.

I agree. Data was my favourite ST character. I sobbed for Spock. And shed a tear or two for Yar and Jadzia. Even Vedek Bareil.

But I felt a little guilty for not being sad to farewell Data, and I'm not so sure that that was the director's intention.

 

[Therin of Andor]

So, wouldn't the novels be, effectively, nothing more than another layer on the multiverse?

They always have been.

 

[Rush Limborg]

I don't think the Madden from that deleted scene had any potential as a character. He was purely a plot device, serving no purpose but to be the butt of a lame joke.

Funny. I actually saw him as a signal to the audience, completely cementing in our minds that Picard, and the Enterprise, are going to move on.

I must admit, when I first saw Nemesis in theaters, it took me a while to recover from the ending.

Frankly, had this last scene been kept, with that last line from Picard ("Well, Number One, our orders are to proceed to the Denab System. It should prove interesting. It's... [smile] ...it's a place where no one has gone before...."), and the Enterprise flying off, rather than being locked up in spacedock, it would have sent me out of the theater with a smile of my own, and a feeling of hope that the adventure will continue.

Just have the editers cut the "Call'em Jean-Luc" sequences, while keeping the more serious interaction between Madden and Picard, and you get a Number One with a pretty likable enthusiasm.

Cut the jokes that no one likes, and you have a truly uplifting, optimistic ending.

Sadly, the whole darn thing was cut.

 

[Rush Limborg]

By the way, KRAD.... didn't you refer to the extended ending of NEM in Time for War/Peace, when you had Picard set course for the Denab system?

 

[Therin of Andor]

"...our orders are to proceed to the Denab System. It should prove interesting. It's... [smile] ...it's a place where no one has gone before...."
Sadly, the whole darn thing was cut.

Why? Because anyone having seen "Encounter at Farpoint" knows that Picard has already been there before.

Well, one of the Denab/Denebs anyway.

 

[Christopher]

^^Yep. Yet another reason the deleted ending didn't work at all -- the clumsy and contrived attempt at bringing it full circle (not even getting the name Deneb right), and the even more contrived attempt to shove the "where no man" line into Picard's mouth. (That's even worse than Cochrane's "You're spacemen on some kind of star trek" in FC.)

 

[Thrawn]

I confess I've never watched the deleted scenes from NEMESIS. Hell, I've only watched NEMESIS once.

The one must-see cut scene from NEM is the Picard-Data ready-room scene. It features some great character/thematic material whose removal really undermined the effectiveness of the film's story flow, because it laid the groundwork for why Data's sacrifice was meaningful. It was cut because it slowed down the pace early in the film and pace rules all in cinema, but this was one cut that went too far.

Huh. I'd never watched the deleted scenes - I didn't like the movie much, so I didn't really feel like I should bother with the special features - but you're right, that was a good one.

 

[William Leisner]

Frankly, had this last scene been kept, with that last line from Picard ("Well, Number One, our orders are to proceed to the Denab System. It should prove interesting. It's... [smile] ...it's a place where no one has gone before...."), and the Enterprise flying off, rather than being locked up in spacedock, it would have sent me out of the theater with a smile of my own, and a feeling of hope that the adventure will continue.

For me, it would have sent me out of the theater saying, "What a mess... and what was that fucking dunebuggy chase?" just like I did with the edited ending. The flaws of NEM were far, far too numerous to have been fixed with an "uplifting" ending.

 

[Christopher]

I actually like Nemesis, but that dune buggy chase needed to go. It served no purpose in the story. They should've cut directly from the discovery of B4's components back to the scene in engineering. I actually tend to skip over the chase when I watch the film.

 

[Thrawn]

I actually like Nemesis, but that dune buggy chase needed to go. It served no purpose in the story. They should've cut directly from the discovery of B4's components back to the scene in engineering. I actually tend to skip over the chase when I watch the film.

I think it's a pretty typical case of several somewhat conflicting creative visions settling on a compromise that didn't really work from any perspective. There's a core of a good story there, but it gets muddled.

 

[T'Bonz]

**Agrees wholeheartedly about the dunebuggy bit.**

That yanked me right out of the movie.

 

[KRAD]

Gee, what yanked me out of the movie was the dumbshit plot. The final straw for me was them spending half the movie beating us over the head with the fact that Remans are sensitive to light, and then, during the climactic battle when the Remans are boarding the Enterprise, it doesn't occur to anyone to turn on the lights really bright. That frapping Screenwriting 101, and John Logan failed it.

Then again, I never thought Logan was all that and a bag of chips anyhow. Yes, he cowrote Gladiator. He also wrote the dreadful adaptation of The Time Machine, RKO 281 -- which managed to turn one of the most interesting stories in cinema history (the saga of Citizen Kane) into something boring -- and a bunch of other forgettable pieces of crap.

Rush: Yes, I did include bits of that extended ending at the end of A Time for War, a Time for Peace. I agree with Bill that that
wouldn't have saved the movie, but I disagree with Christopher that it was hokey. It was a good sendoff for the films, something Picard ambling through the corridor after having a heart-to-heart chat with the Data blow-up doll really wasn't...

 

[Andrew Harris]

Although I think Nemesis was a deeply flawed film, I actually thought the part about Data's death was tremendous. In a way, it's the ultimate completion of his character arc in his quest to be more human--what could be more human, after all, than making the decision to sacrifice yourself to save your friends and loved ones?

A great many people compare it to Spock's sacrifice at the end of Khan, but I actually think it's the exact opposite: Spock sacrificed himself because it was the logical thing to do; Data sacrificed himself because it was the human thing to do.

 

[Thrawn]

Although I think Nemesis was a deeply flawed flim, I actually thought the part about Data's death was tremendous. In a way, it's the ultimate completion of his character arc in his quest to be more human--what could be more human, after all, than making the decision to sacrifice yourself to save your friends and loved ones?

A great many people compare it to Spock's sacrifice at the end of Khan, but I actually think it's the exact opposite: Spock sacrificed himself because it was the logical thing to do; Data sacrificed himself because it was the human thing to do.

I've never thought of it that way before. I think I agree.

But the comparison to Spock, I think, comes more from Data downloading his katr...er, consciousness into B4 before he died. Which was a pretty obvious copy. It made me really happy when the books followed up on that by saying "it was just memories, Data's not in there", making it clear they wouldn't use the same plot device. Damn straight.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I actually thought the part about Data's death was tremendous. In a way, it's the ultimate completion of his character arc in his quest to be more human--what could be more human, after all, than making the decision to sacrifice yourself to save your friends and loved ones? ... Data sacrificed himself because it was the human thing to do.

I agree. But, as filmed, as directed, as edited, it did nothing for me. He was my favourite character, and the scenes of his sacrifice didn't work any magic on me.

(And I've been known to shed tears in lots of films: "Silent Running", "Godspell", "Superman: The Movie", Star Trek II", "LotR: The Fellowship of the Rings", "84 Charing Cross Road"...)

 

[BrotherBenny]

I actually like Nemesis, but that dune buggy chase needed to go. It served no purpose in the story. They should've cut directly from the discovery of B4's components back to the scene in engineering. I actually tend to skip over the chase when I watch the film.

I think it's a pretty typical case of several somewhat conflicting creative visions settling on a compromise that didn't really work from any perspective. There's a core of a good story there, but it gets muddled.

I think the "fall of empire" was an excellent idea, but it should have been worked more as an allegory of the roman empire than how it was done and I think that would have served TNG better as a final send-off.

The full-circle ending, with the Enterprise going to Deneb, would have worked if he'd said "We have our first assignment...we going to...an interesting place...Farpoint station..." and then the camera pulls out as Picard explains to Madden what the hell is so interesting about Farpoint station.

 

[Idoliside]

**Agrees wholeheartedly about the dunebuggy bit.**

That yanked me right out of the movie.

Although it is quite amusing to see Picards childlike glee as he drives it for the first time. And the "unsafe velocities" quote made me laugh.

 

[captcalhoun]

*doesn't get the hate for the Argo...*

 

[Omega Particle]

*doesn't get the hate for the Argo...*

I don't hate it...I just hate the way that it was used. Personally I think it's a pretty neat idea, and something that adds a little more depth to the Star Trek Universe, but I felt the set-piece it was created for was wholly out of place, and inserted into the movie as a way of artificially making its first third more exciting.

It failed, if only because the dune-buggy chase had no relevance to the larger story being told. Their attackers had no connection to the larger Romulan plot...hell, if the opponents had been Romulans it probably would have inserted with greater coherence into the movie and seemed like it fit. But those other aliens who chased them...meh...who cares?

The great tragedy of Nemesis was that it was full of this kind of unrealised potential, and the 'A Time To...' books have a cherished place on my shelf for attempting to salvage good story-telling from wasted opportunities and make their own magic.

Captain Picard meets an evil version of himself. Who denies that has the potential to be an awesome movie? What better villian than a character we know and love? And what better heart-wrenching conflict for Picard than to see an image of himself attempt to wreak massive havoc and destruction? Roll in a chance to journey into the Romulan Empire and taste the sights and sounds of an alien culture on the movie screen and you have the components for the best Star Trek movie ever made.

Personally, I think the biggest mistake was taking as an assumption that they should cast someone other than Patrick Stewart to play Shinzon. Tom Hardy was thoroughly unconvincing as a young clone of Picard. If the role of Shinzon had been written with Patrick Stewart in mind, and we saw him play off against himself on screen (something which Star Trek has repeatedly done very well, particularly in TNG - Will and Tom Riker, Data and Lore), I think it would have gone so much further to be a good movie.

Martin Madden is just part of the larger tragedy of Nemesis. It's the scene we should have had - setting course for frontiers unknown - but executed so poorly. It could have been so good. And instead we got...medicore.

That's why Nemesis is so hated, I think. Because everyone sees the potential, but only a very few people actually see it realised in the final product.