How big was the Enterprise?

[HotRod]

Screen used? I'm sure most of that wasn't visible, was it?

Does the length in the Drexler cutaway come from extrapolation from the size of known elements such as the height of doors, from comments from Drexler himself, or both? (Apologies if it says straight out somewhere in the image .)

If I recall, the 450m range came from the old Drex Files blog, though I'm not 100% on that. I definitely remember reading it as being 450m somewhere. Regardless, it's certainly larger than 289m.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Size of the Enterprise = the height of Spock. Or McCoy's shoe size or Uhura's bra size. It's a TV show and for the modern one they've replaced the ship with a new young "actor". When you're watching TOS, it's 289m with the Franz Joseph floor plans or whatever and if you're watching the modern one it's 442m and Pike's bed has had a major upgrade compared to the one he was laying on chatting to Boyce.

I know we're ultra-hardcore fans, but it's a television show. SNW and TOS really fit together about as well as Smallville and the old Superman movies but we are supposed to suspend our disbelief and go with the new modern look and modernized characters and stories that work in isolation but make a mess if you try to see it as one big whole.

And for what it's worth, the 442m size of the SNW Enterprise is totally broken by the shuttlebay, just like TOS and the Kelvin movies. But the windows, sets and stuff were all made for the 442m size and that's the size they say so that is the size it officially is.

And this from the guy who went insane between 2009-2013 obsessing over this stuff. And while fun, you'll never ever actually fix it by pulling a number out your bums or making the old version the size of the new one.

 

[Tallguy]

View attachment 54146

I recall this cutaway poster from around the late 1980s:

I have a reproduction (probably taken off of a file that was too low res off of the internet) of the Star Trek IV version of this. I forget how much prettier the original is. I miss it, but it's EXPENSIVE. You want to know why I'm in this thread? This stupid poster. Thanks, Mr. Kimble.

---

Well, looking for the above images I went through the first dozen pages of this thread and read stuff from Younger Me and Younger Yous. (Y'alls? You'uns?). I'm repeating myself more than usual. Worse, I'm forgetting stuff I learned earlier in the thread. (I'm falling back into "The shuttle miniature was forced perspective" lore, when I think that has been pretty credibly debunked. I really should be putting this stuff in my Obsidian Vault.)

OTOH, as silly as the topic might be, this is a great thread with lots of interesting knowledge and insights.

Yes, I know there is no goddamn ship, Commander Taggart.

 

[Dar70]

Technically what came first matters less because newer productions have the right to change and overwrite things if they choose so, you not playing that is a meaningless statement because it doesn't change the facts. When they say the Enterprise is 442 meters long she's 442 meters long.

And the shows are the same continuity, DSC literally used The Cage footage as flashback scenes. That the look changed does not mean it's an alternate universe, it means it's not the 60s anymore.

wait wait wait... ...let me get this straight. Doug Drexler said to make the TOS work it needs to be 450m yet the obviously larger interior (pretty much DOUBLE of TOS interior ) of the SNW Entperise is supposed to fit in 442m????

The smaller interior dimensions of the TOS fit just fine imo. The sets looked extremely cramped to begin with. So even if it's not perfect suspension of disbelief works well. Not so much with SNW ent. Especially with that damn enormous turbolift interior. Yes it's part of the ship. It was on screen and never contradicted or overwritten....Right?

Also what does the 1960's have to do with this?? We are talking scale not aesthetics. ( I get that they used that clip from the cage and it was kinda embarrassing that they did it and totally took me out of that episode) And I still think of the show as alternate. They have rewritten so much they are making TOS it's own thing. They don't fit. No matter how people try to explain it.

Funny that with today's production values they still managed to screw it up royally ..

 

[Dar70]

Size of the Enterprise = the height of Spock. Or McCoy's shoe size or Uhura's bra size. It's a TV show and for the modern one they've replaced the ship with a new young "actor". When you're watching TOS, it's 289m with the Franz Joseph floor plans or whatever and if you're watching the modern one it's 442m and Pike's bed has had a major upgrade compared to the one he was laying on chatting to Boyce.

I know we're ultra-hardcore fans, but it's a television show. SNW and TOS really fit together about as well as Smallville and the old Superman movies but we are supposed to suspend our disbelief and go with the new modern look and modernized characters and stories that work in isolation but make a mess if you try to see it as one big whole.

And for what it's worth, the 442m size of the SNW Enterprise is totally broken by the shuttlebay, just like TOS and the Kelvin movies. But the windows, sets and stuff were all made for the 442m size and that's the size they say so that is the size it officially is.

And this from the guy who went insane between 2009-2013 obsessing over this stuff. And while fun, you'll never ever actually fix it by pulling a number out your bums or making the old version the size of the new one.

Right. Sets really don't matter. Most TV shows NEVER get the interior sets to fit the scale of the exterior sets. Bonanza, Lost in Space, The Walton's etc. All their interior sets could never fit in the established exterior dimensions. But this is a thread about the size of the Enterprise so...

 

[cooleddie74]

Even in the "IaMD" two-parter the Defiant looks a lot bigger than the Mirror Universe NX-class ships. No way is one a 289-meter ship and the other 225.

 

[HotRod]

Even in the "IaMD" two-parter the Defiant looks a lot bigger than the Mirror Universe NX-class ships. No way is one a 289-meter ship and the other 225.

Very true.

 

[Tallguy]

So clearly the stats for the NX-01 are wrong!

 

[HotRod]

So clearly the stats for the NX-01 are wrong!

Nah. Jokes aside, the NX-01 is probably the best scaled ship in the franchise when it comes to matching interior and exterior shots. To my knowledge, there are no issues with its size at all. Doug Drexler knew what he was doing when he designed her.

 

[Uxi]

I'd always read 1701 was supposed to be the same length as CVN-65 so roughly 1123 ft or 342m.

 

[Dukhat]

I just noticed that Drexler's cutaway diagram of the Defiant used in the show is quite different from the 'official' version for the Enterprise posted online. Especially in the shuttlebay, where on the 'official' version we see three TOS-style shuttlecraft NCC-1701/2, /7, and /11, while in the screenshot we see two auxiliary craft that seem to have TMP-era nacelles, and the front of another shuttle which looks more like the TNG shuttlepod than the Galileo.

 

[knightgrace]

The difference is that the original USS Enterprise NCC-1701 was explicitly on a five year mission. Hell, based on the age of the ship and the multiple series it’s now appeared in, it completed several five year missions.

I don’t recall any point in any episode where it was stated that the Galaxy class starship would actually go on super extended missions. In fact, we never really saw them operating all that far from starbases.

Explicitly doesn't cut the Mustard. If the series had actually gone for five years THEN you could say that. Under your rules.

But!
The Enterprise-D is explicitly described as being long range. Long range means 'long range'. As in vastly exceeding a Constitution class...

Furthermore it is clearly a generation warp ship.

Meaning it is an FTL starship, where FTL isn't fast enough FTL, but still faster than a Constitution class.

A Galaxy class is stated to be able to travel at one-light/ hour...
Whereas the Constitution has a listed top speed of .73 of one light-year/ hour, no warp factor given.

And yes there is evidence of the speed capability in TOS. The Cage.

 

[HotRod]

Explicitly doesn't cut the Mustard. If the series had actually gone for five years THEN you could say that. Under your rules.

Beside the fact that multiple shows mention the five year missions, Kirk says to Decker in TMP that his 5 years out there qualify him for command in the situation.

Furthermore it is clearly a generation warp ship.

And yet we never see them acting as such. Yes, they had families on board, but so did the Saratoga, an old Miranda class.

A Galaxy class is stated to be able to travel at one-light/ hour...
Whereas the Constitution has a listed top speed of .73 of one light-year/ hour, no warp factor given.

Where is any of this stated or shown on screen?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Explicitly doesn't cut the Mustard. If the series had actually gone for five years THEN you could say that. Under your rules.

If we're going to be that way, there were two seasons of TAS. That makes five seasons.

Beside the fact that multiple shows mention the five year missions, Kirk says to Decker in TMP that his 5 years out there qualify him for command in the situation.

Yep!

 

[Dar70]

Very true.
View attachment 54148

Meh it's all perspective. That last picture the TOS looking dinky...

That said....to this day I still love the TOS design over any other Enterprise. (Even the refit ..yes I said it.... ) It looked great in Entperise and they could probably even do a better job today on the 3d model.

 

[Tallguy]

I'd always read 1701 was supposed to be the same length as CVN-65 so roughly 1123 ft or 342m.

This is why it matters. It just does. (Yes, it's a VERY inconsequential level of "matters".)

 

[Takeru]

wait wait wait... ...let me get this straight. Doug Drexler said to make the TOS work it needs to be 450m yet the obviously larger interior (pretty much DOUBLE of TOS interior ) of the SNW Entperise is supposed to fit in 442m????

The smaller interior dimensions of the TOS fit just fine imo. The sets looked extremely cramped to begin with. So even if it's not perfect suspension of disbelief works well. Not so much with SNW ent. Especially with that damn enormous turbolift interior. Yes it's part of the ship. It was on screen and never contradicted or overwritten....Right?

I don't really care about the size of the sets and if they fit into the ship that much, I simply pointed out that whoever is currently in charge gets to decide. If they say the ship is 442 meters long that's it. If they decide in a few years it's actually 310 or 557 meters then I'm okay with that too.

Also what does the 1960's have to do with this?? We are talking scale not aesthetics.

I thought we were talking both considering you brought up the significantly larger interiors, changes DSC and SNW made and saying it's an alternate universe.

( I get that they used that clip from the cage and it was kinda embarrassing that they did it and totally took me out of that episode) And I still think of the show as alternate. They have rewritten so much they are making TOS it's own thing. They don't fit. No matter how people try to explain it.

Funny that with today's production values they still managed to screw it up royally ..

TOS didn't even manage to stay consistent with itself.

 

[David cgc]

I just noticed that Drexler's cutaway diagram of the Defiant used in the show is quite different from the 'official' version for the Enterprise posted online. Especially in the shuttlebay, where on the 'official' version we see three TOS-style shuttlecraft NCC-1701/2, /7, and /11, while in the screenshot we see two auxiliary craft that seem to have TMP-era nacelles, and the front of another shuttle which looks more like the TNG shuttlepod than the Galileo.

It's more obscured than changed. All three shuttles are in the same place, but their fill-colors are removed and the black outlines and details are inverted to white. There seems to be a bit of an overlay, as well, to make it look more complicated, but it's definitely derived from the same source drawing.

 

[HotRod]

That said....to this day I still love the TOS design over any other Enterprise. (Even the refit ..yes I said it.... )

In this we agree. While I may think it would look too dated for modern television, it's still my favourite. It will always be The Enterprise to me.

 

[korblborp]

We again have this screen used cutaway that was posted on the first page of this thread, showing a Constitution at around 450m. Even the much beloved Doug Drexler couldn't make a 289m Constitution make sense.
View attachment 54136
Which lined up pretty damn well with Voyager's MSD, as shown by @Ray Hardgrit
View attachment 54137
Which actually makes the Enterprise feel like it was scaled as a Heavy Cruiser compared to Voyager, which was frequently described as a "small ship."

"heavy cruiser" is not some specific size range that should remain imutable through time

and voyager is a small ship, in the context of starfleet's other ships a century+ later