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Is it time to put Star Trek to rest?

I liked Stamets and Tilly and at times a lot, but Saru outstripped both.

It took me forever to learn the characters names beyond the core group. Especially the bridge crew. I still don't really know all their names or forgot now. Culber, Stamets, Reno and yes Saru were standouts. Reno didn't get much screentime though. Culber had some great scenes with Book the final season. I wish we would have gotten more seasons like 5. Rayner was a great addition to season 5 as well.
 
I saw that happen in real time with Enterprise. I just don't get it.
I think to some extent it's just a function of the passage of time and the aging process, not unique to star trek or tv in general. I have an increasingly fond overall memory of high school, despite being objectively miserable at the time (and having the overwrought journals to prove it).
Perhaps a lot of it is new people coming in who didn't watch the series when they first aired; I think there's a weird human inclination to assume that everything prior to now was slightly better in some vague way (sometimes justifiably, sometimes nonsensically).

That said I think the Berman era's reputation is due to fade, Enterprise included, and I'm saying that as a huge fan of Voyager and a pretty big fan of most TNG; it feels like one of many cultural artifacts that got canonised as a "masterpiece" by the mid-2000s internet but which increasingly means little to most people under the age of, like, 30.

On top of that, I'm not sure if the Kurtzman stuff will ever be placed on a pedestal in the same way. TNG, for all its myriad issues and all the disappointment/anger many classic Star Trek fans felt toward it, managed to push through into the mainstream and brute-force its way into redefining what Star Trek meant to pop culture in a way none of the streaming stuff has.
 
I watch a lot of first time reaction videos for things like Star Trek and Doctor Who, and even people who started with the newer series and then went back to the older stuff often agree with the general opinions of fans who watched it decades ago when it was new.

Good things are still good, and are better than things that came along later which were less good.
 
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TOS, TNG, DS9 and the first three seasons of VOY.

TOS: Meh
TNG: Pedantic
DS9: Haven't seen it
VOY (S1-S3): Awful


Plus series like NCIS, CSI NY, CSI Miami, CSI

I don't like procedurals. You see one CSI, you've seen them all.


A series like TNG, DS9 and VOY which would have great, likeable characters

I don't like characters that need "mirror" versions of themselves in order to have a dark side.

I couldn't relate to the characters on TNG. They were TOO perfect. They weren't human.
 
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TOS, TNG, DS9 and the first three seasons of VOY.

Plus series like NCIS, CSI NY, CSI Miami, CSI, Stargate SG 1 and Stargate Atlantis.

This doesn't help you define "good." Clearly the quality of good is subjective. I've watched all of the entire NCIS and CSI franchises and I hold Star Trek to a much higher bar than these shows reach. These procedurals definitely appeal to a very broad fan base and, therefore, aren't all that deep.

What is it about these shows that appeals to you? Quirky characters? The buddy relationships between partners?

What I want and is:

What Star trek should need right now is a new good series!

A series like TNG, DS9 and VOY which would have great, likeable characters played by great actors and great interesting stories with an optimistic view, maybe in the 24th century about 10-15 years after VOY with continuity which could sort out some "loose ends" from those prevous series and also come up with new interesting scenarios.

Ah, here we go. Your definition of good does not appear to mean quality of storytelling. You aren't focusing on high concepts or deep thought provoking narratives that challenge your world view.

You appear to want a happy, positive, feel good emotional experience. No Burn. No apocalyptic aftermath. No doom and gloom. No dark stories that might fuel nightmares or, at the very least, leave you feeling sad or emotionally drained after watching. You want comfort food. Familiarity. If Trek was food you appear to be wanting chicken noodle soup or a holiday meal or pizza with friends (or insert whatever comfort food best fits your personal heritage).

And that's OK. After the daily stress we all deal with, it's understandable one wants to unplug and veg out with familiar friends in a comfortable environment and end the day with a smile.

SFA and all current Trek isn't that. These aren't the comfortable, familiar characters and settings that we've grown up with or lived with for decades. Modern Trek has quite a bit of a dark undercurrent what with a Klingon War, homicidal AI, Federation collapse, apocalyptic aftermath, galactic ending threats, people blown out of airlocks, murderous heroes given a pass, mutiny, child separation, and so on. Even pre-burn SNW isn't as comfortable as it could be because it's reimagiming of classic Trek characters and situations can feel like someone has rearranged all your stuff or made their version of your favorite foods by using ingredients you don't like, and somehow made all your comfy clothes feel just a little bit itchy.

I get it. I understand. That does not make modern Trek bad or not good. It simply makes modern Trek not for you. No matter how much you want it to be.

I get that, too. You want more of the Trek you like, but that's not being made anymore. It's like your favorite band broke up and isn't making new music, or your favorite restaurant closed, or your grandma is no longer cooking your favorite holiday meals and her recipes are lost.

I get it. I want the same. I want this modern Trek to be my Trek. I want this Trek to grow on me but it's hard. Everything is too fast and there isn't enough opportunity to breathe. Seasons are too short so there really isn't enough to get into before it's over. Everything has to be bigger, faster, more and have an overarching theme that makes each episode a piece of the whole instead of a whole thing itself.

I reach.
 
Ah, here we go. Your definition of good does not appear to mean quality of storytelling. You aren't focusing on high concepts or deep thought provoking narratives that challenge your world view.
Might be misunderstanding you, but I don't think any Star Trek - new or old - has ever really challenged my worldview. The occasional "topical" episodes are just polemics where you already agree or disagree with the view the writers are pushing - I doubt anyone watched "A Private Little War" and had their view on American military intervention in Vietnam earnestly changed.

The streaming-era shows seem to actively go out of their way to avoid having anything to say, presumably in an attempt to keep widespread appeal and be able to be sold to a global audience. The only exception I can immediately think of is Picard's ICE stuff, which again was sledgehammer-subtle and I doubt changed anyone's mind or challenged anyone's views (and took place in an evil alternate timeline anyway, just to make sure it didn't have anything concrete to say).
 
It took me forever to learn the characters names beyond the core group. Especially the bridge crew. I still don't really know all their names or forgot now. Culber, Stamets, Reno and yes Saru were standouts. Reno didn't get much screentime though. Culber had some great scenes with Book the final season. I wish we would have gotten more seasons like 5. Rayner was a great addition to season 5 as well.
Burnham, Saru, Culber, Stamets, Bryce, Rhys, Detmer, Owo, Reno, and Ariam all stood out to me.
 
And don't forget Mirror Earth, but that one's on Ira Behr.

And Kirk encountered two alien threats in two consecutive seasons that reduced populated star systems to rubble in moments (and I believe a third one in TAS?). The threat of imminent total and complete destruction of your homeworld is just part of the package of being part of a science fiction universe and Star Trek has never been an exception to that.

I think they’re both different/well-executed enough to both constitute as classics, but they are quite similar to each other (“The Immunity Syndrome” is on my list of things to rewatch but it’s pushed back to the end of the list since I’ve seen “The Doomsday Machine” in the last month).

The use of destroyed planets since Trek 09 has been as a mix of things to motivate emotional turmoil in a lead character and as 9/11 allegory. I don’t think they’ve gone to that well that often but it’s often been front-and-center of stories and character backgrounds, and it’s such a blunt, unsubtle story device.

Maybe a better comparison would be Michael Piller’s interest in the politics of land rights and removal—it might have been interesting in the context of late TNG/early DS9 and VOY, but by the time he was using it in Insurrection it was a case of, “Oh, we’re going here again?” Piller, to his credit, had by this point pretty much acknowledged that he was exhausted with Trek, had already handed the reins of DS9 to Behr and VOY to Jeri Taylor, and after Insurrection had no plans on doing anything beyond the occasional note or suggestion as creative consultant.

It’s that sense of overdrawing from that same well that makes me think that some degree of either rest or creative turnover (not that I’d trust anyone new given Paramount’s current state) would be helpful.

In recent series like SNW and DSC, characters often feel a lot more homogenous on the inside, even when they look diverse on the surface.

It was striking to me that DSC finally started casting with greater diversity and gave everyone, well, American white person names. I’ve actually heard Asian-Americans glad that the characters didn’t have Asian names, which I think comes from a perspective based on difficulties Asian-American actors face. However, I also thought of an acquaintance who admitted that he was always a bit surprised when a mixed-race kid at his children’s school had an Asian last name rather than a European one, and what that said about the attitudes and insecurities he’d accumulated over the years as an Asian-American male.

To be fair to SNW—and I’m only a few episodes in, so maybe I’ll be proven wrong—I feel like they’re doing a better job at this. Although Uhura’s attitude really isn’t typical of people who grow up in polyglot societies (you typically grow up in your own tongue, the lingua franca, and maybe a couple of others, and then switch a ton based on context rather than learning everyone’s language), her gregarious, “I want to know my neighbors better” attitude reminded me a lot of a Botswanan acquaintance’s feeling towards other Botswanans of diverse backgrounds. Now, Kenya is definitely not Botswana, but we’re talking centuries in the future where ethnic politics have changed (and bonus points for languages not disappearing in utopia), Uhura is an exceptional person, and I do like the attempt to bring a specific social environment into her backstory.

I don’t know that much about La’an yet, but it seems to me like there’s some attempt so far to contextualize her as someone who grew up on the frontier and with an unusual background, both of which are 100% science fiction but I again I appreciate them trying to stretch their imagination (idk why she’d keep the last name—just go with Singh, one of the most common names or there, or Noonien, or Nguyen or Nun or whatever’s close enough—and it completely takes me out of the story whenever they mention it).
 
Ah, here we go. Your definition of good does not appear to mean quality of storytelling. You aren't focusing on high concepts or deep thought provoking narratives that challenge your world view.
I think older Trek delved a lot deeper than newer series ever did, especially considering the cultural and societal landscape of the time they were produced.
I've started with the newer Trek: the Kelvin timeline films, then DSC, then SNW, and then TOS and Voyager. Both of the older series affected me on an intellectual and emotional level, much more than the newer ones. They were anything but just "happy, positive, feel-good" television. I often found myself contemplating the ethical dilemmas and intellectual concepts the characters faced long after finishing an episode.
I don't mean to say that newer series completely lack substance. I found concepts like the mycelial network and the tardigrades that can navigate it in DSC to be genuinely exciting (love fungi, love tardigrades). The Federation’s ban on genetic modification and its unjust impact on the Illyrians was also thought-provoking. There are other moments like these as well, and quite a lot of them. Still, I feel, overall, the older series engaged my intellect more consistently than DSC or SNW have managed to do.
Modern Trek has quite a bit of a dark undercurrent what with a Klingon War, homicidal AI, Federation collapse, apocalyptic aftermath, galactic ending threats, people blown out of airlocks, murderous heroes given a pass, mutiny, child separation, and so on.
You seem to equate darkness largely with violence. Older Trek was indeed less violent, but it never shied away from dark, complex themes. In fact, SNW followed in that tradition with storylines like the one about the Illyrians. And that is actually the kind of darkness I prefer, the kind that unsettles you intellectually rather than through violence. Given the amount of real-world violance we’re surrounded by nowadays.
 
If Star Trek is put to rest, when do you bring it back?

Those that grew up on TOS have most likely reached the point, where they're starting to pass away. Those that grew up on TNG have reached middle life. In both of these cases, I'm talking about folks that watched the shows when they originally aired.

Did DISCO and SNW bring in new fans?

Ultimately, if Star Trek is put to rest, you're going to want enough surviving fans that remember the franchise, so that you that you have a built in audience. Otherwise, it would make more sense to commit dollars to a new IP, rather than spend on an old. The benefit of an old IP is that you already have audience members willing to give it at least a try. Once you lose that built in audience, it's tough to want to throw dollars at it and try to start from scratch building a new fandom.
 
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A lot of people thought Star Trek was put to rest after May 13, 2005. I remember the dour atmosphere in a good portion of the fandom that spring.

Thankfully we only had to wait a few years for new content, but 2005 was a pretty down time to be a Trekkie, at least from a "The Future Is Gonna Be Bright" standpoint.
 
Might be misunderstanding you, but I don't think any Star Trek - new or old - has ever really challenged my worldview. The occasional "topical" episodes are just polemics where you already agree or disagree with the view the writers are pushing - I doubt anyone watched "A Private Little War" and had their view on American military intervention in Vietnam earnestly changed.

If memory serves, I seem to recall someone's commented how their view of racism was either influenced by or altered in a positive manner by TOS.

Why would they create social commentary episodes of they weren't interested in shaping minds and hearts of the viewers? Trek, starting with Roddenberry Trek, was known for its messages, morals, and meanings.

Isn't art meant to influence?


I think older Trek delved a lot deeper than newer series ever did, especially considering the cultural and societal landscape of the time they were produced.

The bartender in drag and the multiple depictions of alternate sexual lifestyles (homosexual, bisexual, and polycule) seem to be pretty deep, at least for Trek.

It may not be social commentary in the A Plot, but the character development might challenge some. Liking Stamets and Culber might go a long way in shaping someone's opinion on LGBTQ people if not issues. On the other hand, "Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach" and "Ghosts of Illyria" might be saying something to someone.

But I see what you mean. We don't have any commentaries that hit one over the head like "A Private Little War" or "Let That be Your Last Battlefield". Star Trek doesn't have any 'television firsts' to depict like in the old days.

You seem to equate darkness largely with violence.

I think that's because, except for the 2 SNW episodes I just mentioned, Trek hasn't touched on any dark themes. Well, Picard's commentary on immigration isn't happy go lucky. 10 episodes a season makes it difficult to have sober episodes that deal with dark themes. We don't have any Handmaid's Tale type of episodes or space exploration can be deadly like For All Mankind depicted.

As for TOS going dark, they still tried to end those episodes with a wink and a laugh, no matter how out of place those moments feel today.

And, no. I wasn't intentionally limiting my examples to dark violence. The Burn and it's aftermath isn't specifically violent. They could have easily made The Burn an environmental or climate change metaphor.

It's just that there are a lot of violence related dark themes in current Trek. Picard's Confederation of Earth was the result of violence. The Borg with Rogue Changlings was violent. Jack the Ripper Pah-wraiths are violent.

I'm just saying out of 10 episodes a season if half are dealing with the darker themes, some people may find that a relaxing escape from reality.
 
Why would they create social commentary episodes of they weren't interested in shaping minds and hearts of the viewers? Trek, starting with Roddenberry Trek, was known for its messages, morals, and meanings.
I suppose the issue is that any message episode is almost always either something most viewers already believe (eg "racism is bad" in LTBYLB), or polemics where a manufactured hypothetical is constructed to awkwardly push one viewpoint (eg A Private Little War, Suddenly Human, etc).

To illustrate what I'm saying, pick an episode which has a message you don't agree with - I don't think anyone's watching "Wolf in the Fold" or "Turnabout Intruder" and coming away thinking "hmm, maybe women really are incapable of handling stress and shouldn't be in positions of authority" unless they already believed that. The episodes don't really complicate the viewers' notions of anything, they just reveal the writers' own view and treat it as fact, which is also what the episodes with progressive messages do, only we agree with them beforehand so we see it as satisfying TV.

"Arena", "Errand of Mercy", and "Devil in the Dark" are stories with good morals, but I don't think they exist to challenge or confront the viewer - everyone who watches "Devil in the Dark" comes away sympathetic to the Horta because the script doesn't leave room for anything else, it's a (very good) story designed to present a message that all viewers will agree with, rather than find complicated or challenging.
Isn't art meant to influence?
I don't think it has a duty to - Star Trek has succeeded largely I think as an accessible action-adventure series based around high-concept sci-fi, and IMO it's at its best when it doesn't have any specific message to make and focuses on imaginative sci-fi - "City on the Edge of Forever" has basically nothing to say (beyond "Nazism is bad", which the script takes as granted and 99.9% of viewers will obviously agree with) but is just a superb 50 minutes of TV.

I know it seems like I'm being weirdly fixated on this point but I just wonder if the idea that fiction necessarily must have some deeper meaning to impart has resulted in worse TV - in a way, Star Trek's positive impact on a lot of people, including me, might be because it's very unchallenging and mostly unpretentious (well, bar bits of TNG). It creates an appealing techno-optimist future which is vaguely drawn enough to appeal to virtually anyone (or at least, anyone who's broadly socially liberal by 60s/80s standards) and which acts as a fantastic container for stories.
 
"City on the Edge of Forever" has basically nothing to say

Take comfort that some things which seem cruel and unfair have greater impact on the world than you know? (Edith dying) Don't let emotion blind you to what must be done? (Kirk having to let her go) Be careful with sharp objects in moving vehicles? (McCoy, hypos being a stand-in for needles)
 
You seem to equate darkness largely with violence. Older Trek was indeed less violent, but it never shied away from dark, complex themes. In fact, SNW followed in that tradition with storylines like the one about the Illyrians. And that is actually the kind of darkness I prefer, the kind that unsettles you intellectually rather than through violence. Given the amount of real-world violance we’re surrounded by nowadays.
Older Trek has huge swaths of wars and weapons of war and near destruction at times. Not sure that newer Trek is doing that much differently.
 
What the producers choose to make should never be determined by ‘what the fans want.’ It should also not be determined by a producer who just wants to cater to a niche audience. Because at the end of the day, this is a business. The goals of Star Trek producers are the same goals of car salesmen. They need to sell the most amount of product and make the most amount of money, while keeping their customers happy and wanting more of their product. But the customer rarely knows what he or she wants when they walk into that showroom (or they think they know what they want until the dealer tells them otherwise), so it’s the dealer’s job to really sell their product to that customer to make that sale. I’m not seeing much of that these days with CBSTrek. They've tended to cater to niche groups of fans (which was practically their modus operandi back when they had five shows simultaneously being produced, and look how well that went.) Now they're trying to cater to the 18-25 crowd in the hopes of revitalizing the brand. I'm 53, so I'm not the target audience, but that's ok. I've come to the conclusion that nuTrek isn't for me, and that's ok too. I'm willing to wait until someone else comes along and makes a Trek show or film that this 53 year old will enjoy, while they currently cater to the younger generation.

(BTW, what this fan wants is a Lost Era show, with monster maroons, starships that look like the Ambassador class, production values mimicking the TOS films, and a story that bridges the gap between TUC and TNG. But I would guess that less than 1% of even hardcore Trek fans want that, and I would be the first one to tell Kurtzman or whoever is in charge to never, ever make this. Nor do I think that, if they did make it, that they would make it the way I wanted it.)
 
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