Its the O'brien.
He probably got tortured to death to absolve the sins of the Federation.
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Is it time to put Star Trek to rest?
- Thread starter Dar70
- Start date
He probably got tortured to death to absolve the sins of the Federation.
Getting caught up on this thread. Somewhat. Strange New Worlds, Lower Decks, Prodigy, and Starfleet Academy aren't "Dark and Dystopian!!!!!" They're as far from that as you can get.
Discovery and Picard? Sure, you can make a case for them. I could debate the case, but at least there would be a case to debate for those two. The other four Kurtzman Series I listed above? No.
As for "bright, shiny, and happy!" movies in the mainstream. Wasn't that the Superman movie that came out last summer? I haven't seen it, but a few people annoyingly told me "You have to go see it!" "You have to go see it!!!" If anyone tries to do that here, don't even think about it. Superman isn't my thing. Nor are comic book movies in general. Regardless, the point is: nothing's all one thing or all another. Not now, not in any other period.
Unless you're trying to tell me that Barbie is "Dark and Dystopian!!!!!" No. That's what Oppenheimer is for.
As far as the world, 2015 is my cut-off. But that's a whole other story.
2010, from what I remember, didn't have anything unique about it. It was essentially 2009 Part II.
Discovery and Picard? Sure, you can make a case for them. I could debate the case, but at least there would be a case to debate for those two. The other four Kurtzman Series I listed above? No.
As for "bright, shiny, and happy!" movies in the mainstream. Wasn't that the Superman movie that came out last summer? I haven't seen it, but a few people annoyingly told me "You have to go see it!" "You have to go see it!!!" If anyone tries to do that here, don't even think about it. Superman isn't my thing. Nor are comic book movies in general. Regardless, the point is: nothing's all one thing or all another. Not now, not in any other period.
Unless you're trying to tell me that Barbie is "Dark and Dystopian!!!!!" No. That's what Oppenheimer is for.
The Sopranos, The Wire, and Ron Moore's Battlestar Galactica were all made and finished before 2010. BSG is far darker than most sci-fi made today and darker than all of Kurtzman Trek. Breaking Bad started in 2008.
As far as the world, 2015 is my cut-off. But that's a whole other story.
2010, from what I remember, didn't have anything unique about it. It was essentially 2009 Part II.
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I agree with that, Picard Season One and Discovery Season One and Three to me was the dystopia that I want trek to be an escape from. Picard season two was too close to home (as it spent most of the time there), and season three again not really utopian. I didn't see starfleet acting like the starfleet of TNG - was full of shadowy conspiracy stuff, which on its own would have been ok if it was separate from the bulk of the story (Badmiral of the week, DS9 level section 31 even).
My favourite DS9 season 7 episodes are Take Me Out to the Holosuite and Badda-Bing Badda-Bang as they are very different to the general tone. Don't get me wrong, with 26 episodes DS9 S7 could fit in other great stories like AR556/Paper Moon and nice one off episodes like Treachery, Faith and the Great River, but still leave room for a long arc and light-hearted episodes.
Picard's structure didn't allow for that though. I didn't see anything in 2400 Starfleet or the Federation which made me hopeful, even the circumstances of the old TNG crew helping out was "well if I must".
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It is a great movie, just as a movie. Fun time.
It is a worthy update to the original with Reeves.
Now I'm picturing O'Brien on a crucifix...which he probably would have called a good day.
I think there's a very good chance Star Trek WILL rest, after SFA season two and SNW season five. Because if they pivot to movies again as we know they are after Skydance buy it... do we really think they'll have any more luck then Paramount have had since 2016? Five or so theatrical Trek movies have been announced since Beyond, and none of them got made. Some were blatant lies called out by the actors, to drum up investor funding which never materialized.
If Paramount knew it wasn't financially viable, what makes any of us think Skydance (who co-funded the last few movies and thus know exactly how they performed) will think any differently?
If Paramount knew it wasn't financially viable, what makes any of us think Skydance (who co-funded the last few movies and thus know exactly how they performed) will think any differently?
I know that and I'm not to happy with those scenarios.
They should have avoided the whole WWIII scenario because if if such a real scenario had happened, it wouldn't have have been a single human left alive for the Vulcans to make contact with.
But what we saw in TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY wasn't constant gloom like in the newer series. It was actually a better world in a better time. OK we had conflicts but they didn't affect the whole humanity in such a disastrous way as a world war and most of the episodes in TOS, TNG, DS9 and Voy were just the usual adventures and actions which we can se in many movies and series.
There weren't a constand gloom over the series.
As for ENT, it was just boring. The characters were boring and it didn't look like a pre-TOS series at all.
Yes, and as I had written in my comment above, those are events i could have lived without.
And yes, it was Berman's and Braga's work.
I'm no fan of Berman and Braga, I've often criticized them on these forums even if I had to admit that they actually did a good job with TNG.
But what we have today is much, much worse.
I agree that SNW isn't dystopian. hadn't it been for the "replacement Kirk" and TOS characters played by wrong actors, I would probably had continued to watch it. Why didn't they just stick with Pike?
I haven't had the opportunity to watch Lower Decks yet. It's only available via streaming and as it is and has been with streaming, a series must be incredible good if I would start paying for a service which content is 90% crap and which also can delete Lower Decks anytine they want. Things like that has happened to me before.
Prodigy is a comic and the characters are cartoons. OK, I like such series but seeing Star Trek characters as cartoons. Hmmmmmmmmm............?
What I've manage to see of Starfleet Academy looks horrible. I get the imprsssion that they actually ridicule Star Trek. It's definitely not dystopian, just bad and stupid.
For me, Starfleet Academy is what we saw in Coming Of Age and The First Duty. If they had made such a series in the early 2000's, it could have been great.
As for the Superman concept, it's just not my style. It's enjoyable in a way but a bit too much over the top for me.
I do agree with what you have written about dystopian series in the early 2000's. It's actually hard to draw a definite line exactly when the series and movies started to be dark and gloomy and your suggestion about 2015 is actually good, that's aroun the time when all good series started to dissapear and we got those dark and gloomy scenarios instead.
Personally I couldn't stand NuBSG. Another series which I just watched about three episodes of.
I totally agree with your comments above. Watching PIC was like watching a funeral A funeral for TNG. The whole PIC series was such a dissapointment.
I also agree with your comments on DS9, about episodes like Take Me Out to the Holosuite and Badda-Bing Badda-Bang and also your comments about episodes like The siege of AR556 and It's Only A Paper Moon.
But that's just what made DS9 so incredible good. There were some dark episodes here and there but it was also lighter episodes in between which lightened up the scenario. Add to that great stories overall and good, likeable characters and you have a masterpiece.
I can actually agree on that, even if i'm not a Super-Fan of Superman.
(Super-Fan of Superman! Now I was funny, wasn't I?)
There's a risk that it will be so. Maybe it would be good because then we can remember the glorious days oof Star trek and just forget the rest. No new series and movies which have terrible series as DSC and PIC as foundations for further development.
But there's also a risk that Star Trek will be forgotten. How many of us will be around when the next series or movie arrives in some distant future and how many of us will even bother after the recent development of the series and movies in the "Kurtzman Era".
If they at least could have kept TrekLit going with future TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY books. But they seem to abandon all that with newer books based on the NuTrek movies, DSC and PIC and certain auors also seem determined to kill of our favorites from TOS; TNG, DS9 and VOY one by one.
It's not constant gloom in the newer series either. It's the same variation of positive, work together, and downer scenarios that Trek has had since Kirk had to kill his best friend.
But not in the same ways as it was in TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY.
Not to mention that the scenarios are more gloomy overall and the characters are......well, not likeable at all.
I guess that's my thing. I don't want TOS back. I have reruns. I definitely don't want TNG with unlikable characters, or VOY with three characters I kind of like. DS9 was ok, but it could be downright depressing.
I want a mix of things within Star Trek and newer Trek does it just like TOS did in terms of mix of stories but with far different characters that I also like. And, I go back and watch TOS if that's what I want.
And then we discover later they were at war with the Cardassians
As I've said, that was always described as being a series of border skirmishes, not the kind of existential threat that puts the whole quadrant on high alert like the Klingons or Romulans presented to the Federation before, or the Borg or the Dominion after that.
I've always imagined a lot of the "wars" the 24th century Federation got into off-screen were basically just them waiting for people to stop shooting at them. Like Cardassians would mount a "major offensive" that's just a bunch of Galor-class ships firing fruitlessly at a confused Galaxy-class that keeps hailing them and asking them to stop, then they all warp out in terror when it finally fires back and disables the weapons of the lead ship.
Oddly it might actually be symbiotic - when the Cardies get bored and accept a peace deal, the government can say "we took on the Federation and forced them to sue for peace" to their population while the UFP can tell its own people "we ended this war with minimal conflict".
Oddly it might actually be symbiotic - when the Cardies get bored and accept a peace deal, the government can say "we took on the Federation and forced them to sue for peace" to their population while the UFP can tell its own people "we ended this war with minimal conflict".
And the Talarians. The Tzenkethi.
I totally agree with you!
But there are some things i disagree with too.
I don't want TOS back either because it would nean a TOS with "replacement actors" and i've got more than enough of that with the NuTrek movies.
I don't want TNG back with unlikeable characters (like that Raffi Musiker who was very unsympathetic in the book which ruined Garak and who I just cant stand anymore), I don't want VOY back with only three characters and an important one missing and I don't want DS9 back without Odo and Sisko.
And yes, I constantly go back to visit TOS, TNG, DS9 and the first three seasons of VOY.
So far I agree.
What I want is a new series which takes place some years after the Dominion War. A series with new, likeable characters, new exciting episodes and a possibility to follow up some loose ends from TNG, DS9 and VOY.
But what I don't want is what we got in PIC, a gloomy, dystopian serie which looked more like a funeral for TNG than a new exciting series. A series where they had the bad taste of wiping out Romulus and turn one of the most important species in the Star Trek universe to crap.
I don't want what we got in DSC, another dystopian series with bad stories, lousy characters, Mutant Ninja Turtles Klingons and a total screwing up of everything Star Trek stands for.
And I don't wan't a clown series like SFA with downright horrible characters which seems to actually ridicule Star Trek.
And we could at least have had TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY or stories from the 24th century in TrekLit. But now the authors seem determined (or ordered to) kill of and/or ruin our favorite characters from TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY just to make room for books and stories based on PIC and DSC and their horrible characters.
Garak totally destroyed, Janeway turned into an idiot plus the overall dystopian legacy from PIC in the books now. Oh spare me from that!
A very good observation of those conflicts.
The conflict with the Cardassians did actually seem like an after-construction in TNG.
With the Ferengi removed from villain status, the Borg turned to velour villains with the addition of characters like Hugh and The Borg Queen and those aliens from Conspiracy totally forgotten, they have to come up with a new adversary.
And all of a sudden, when the Cardassians show up for the first time in the TNG episode The Wounded, we're told that a conflict with the Cardassians has been going on for about 10 years with constant skirmishes but no real outbreak of war.
Just like that!
A bit clumsy maybe but actually a succesful after-construction in which we got the best adversaries ever in Star Trek and the foundation for all what we could see later on in DS9!
And we got characters like Garak and Dukat as the icing on the cake!
But how much of this have you actually watched? You’ve mentioned before watching reviews as your main source of information on these shows. You seem to refuse to actually watch these shows on their own merits instead relying on someone else’s opinions. That does not create an atmosphere to have an actual conversation based on the newer shows flaws and merits.
Also, you talk about books, which let’s be honest, a producer can come by and come up with their own story and ignore what happened in the one book you seem to go on ad nauseam about. I for one take the books as an entertaining (or not) story and not as something that actually makes a difference to the characters I follow.
You’re allowed to have your own opinions, of course. But it’s hard to have a good faith conversation with someone who doesn’t want to actually engage in the material.
I didn’t say people. I said Lynx, in relation to wider issues than so-called ‘NuTrek’, based on his post history.
Stand down, White Knight.
There is no Baldur's Gate 3 tv show, it's a game. A tv show is being mulled over that will potentially continue the Baldur's Gate saga within the wider D&D universe.lynx said:
Yeah, I don't want that.
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