Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 3x08 - "Four-And-A-Half Vulcans"

[Turtletrekker]

That's a ridiculous assertion. Those dimensions, along with dimensions of the TMP refit, have been floating around in various publications for years.

Publications are not canon.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Do you really think Paramount is going to have their Officially Licensed Products contradict itself?

Paramount must have a rule: when two numbers contradict each other, pick the one that leads to the most profit.

It might have been Gene's rule too.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Paramount must have a rule: when two numbers contradict each other, pick the one that leads to the most profit.

It might have been Gene's rule too.

So basically, both are true.

We can make multiple variations of the Same StarShip, sell more Figures / Models, make more $$$ off the fans.

Not on screen = not canon. Tie-in merch doesn't count.

It's that simple, and I'm not continuing this argument.

You do you, doesn't mean your belief is any stronger than the evidence I have as well.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this issue.

 

[Tuskin38]

That's a ridiculous assertion. Those dimensions, along with dimensions of the TMP refit, have been floating around in various publications for years.

That doesn't make them canon.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

We can make multiple variations of the Same StarShip, sell more Figures / Models, make more $$$ off the fans.

Paramount loves us, but isn't in love with us. The studio will go along with what helps them make money. OTOH, the art director and whoever designed the display should have known that ambiguity is better. Let the fans debate it, but don't make them feel stupid.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Guess where Eaglemoss gets their data / info from?

Paramount.

Star Trek: The Official Starships Collection

Star Trek: The Official Starships Collection was a British magazine/display model collectible partwork publication and product line that was published by Eaglemoss Collections under its Hero Collector imprint and overall supervision of Project Manager Ben Robinson. Authorized and licensed by...

memory-alpha.fandom.com

Guess who authorizes them to produce these "Officially Licensed Products"?

Paramount

Star Trek Fact Files

Launched at the start of 1997, The Official Star Trek Fact Files was a weekly Paramount Pictures-licensed partwork magazine series that was marketed and distributed in the UK, Europe, and Australasia by GE Fabbri, on behalf of end copyright holder Midsummer Books Ltd. In print from 1997 until...

memory-alpha.fandom.com

They have plenty of "Officially Printed" material that ties to the "In-Universe" lore w/o it having to be online.
Long before Online Wiki's were a thing.

Spoiler: EagleMoss Official Magazine Content containing TOS Connie

Spoiler: EagleMoss Official Magazine Content containing SNW Connie

Do you really think Paramount is going to have their Officially Licensed Products contradict itself?

Go ahead, you can believe what you want, appeal to authority that SNW's 442.06 meters applies to everything retroactively including the TOS Connie.

Or let's be realistic, Paramount isn't going to contradict their own past works.

Especially One's that are well established & beloved by a very rabid group of TOS fans; they're not going to waste their time & money to go back and edit all the previous printed content to make the TOS Connie to have 442.06 meters as their length instead of 289 meters. It's not worth their time, the controversy it would cause wouldn't be worth it.

You guys do what you want, believe what you want.
I believe what is logical & established.

This would mean all licensed products are canon. Not how it works,

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

This would mean all licensed products are canon. Not how it works,

Then explain, how does "Officially Licensed Products" work?

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

I assume that just means, "this is our product/someone else's who has permission from us, not a knock-off".

 

[Tuskin38]

Then explain, how does "Officially Licensed Products" work?

According to CBS/Paramount, canon is only what appears on screen.
Unless any of those numbers appear on screen, they're not canon.

Using your logic, that would mean all the novels, video games and comics would also be canon, because they're all officially licensed.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Then explain, how does "Officially Licensed Products" work?

It means you get the license to produce things with the words "Star Trek" on it. Then you get money from people who buy it to sell it to other people.

 

[Mudd]

Guess where Eaglemoss gets their data / info from?

Paramount.

Star Trek: The Official Starships Collection

Star Trek: The Official Starships Collection was a British magazine/display model collectible partwork publication and product line that was published by Eaglemoss Collections under its Hero Collector imprint and overall supervision of Project Manager Ben Robinson. Authorized and licensed by...

memory-alpha.fandom.com

Guess who authorizes them to produce these "Officially Licensed Products"?

Paramount

Star Trek Fact Files

Launched at the start of 1997, The Official Star Trek Fact Files was a weekly Paramount Pictures-licensed partwork magazine series that was marketed and distributed in the UK, Europe, and Australasia by GE Fabbri, on behalf of end copyright holder Midsummer Books Ltd. In print from 1997 until...

memory-alpha.fandom.com

They have plenty of "Officially Printed" material that ties to the "In-Universe" lore w/o it having to be online.
Long before Online Wiki's were a thing.

Spoiler: EagleMoss Official Magazine Content containing TOS Connie

Spoiler: EagleMoss Official Magazine Content containing SNW Connie

It's not canon.

 

[Mudd]

I assume that just means, "this is our product/someone else's who has permission from us, not a knock-off".

That is all it means, although "permission" generally includes some payment as well.

 

[DaveyNY]

Guess where Eaglemoss gets their data / info from?

Paramount.

Star Trek: The Official Starships Collection

Star Trek: The Official Starships Collection was a British magazine/display model collectible partwork publication and product line that was published by Eaglemoss Collections under its Hero Collector imprint and overall supervision of Project Manager Ben Robinson. Authorized and licensed by...

memory-alpha.fandom.com

Guess who authorizes them to produce these "Officially Licensed Products"?

Paramount

Star Trek Fact Files

Launched at the start of 1997, The Official Star Trek Fact Files was a weekly Paramount Pictures-licensed partwork magazine series that was marketed and distributed in the UK, Europe, and Australasia by GE Fabbri, on behalf of end copyright holder Midsummer Books Ltd. In print from 1997 until...

memory-alpha.fandom.com

They have plenty of "Officially Printed" material that ties to the "In-Universe" lore w/o it having to be online.
Long before Online Wiki's were a thing.

Spoiler: EagleMoss Official Magazine Content containing TOS Connie

Spoiler: EagleMoss Official Magazine Content containing SNW Connie

Do you really think Paramount is going to have their Officially Licensed Products contradict itself?

Go ahead, you can believe what you want, appeal to authority that SNW's 442.06 meters applies to everything retroactively including the TOS Connie.

Or let's be realistic, Paramount isn't going to contradict their own past works.

Especially One's that are well established & beloved by a very rabid group of TOS fans; they're not going to waste their time & money to go back and edit all the previous printed content to make the TOS Connie to have 442.06 meters as their length instead of 289 meters. It's not worth their time, the controversy it would cause wouldn't be worth it.

You guys do what you want, believe what you want.
I believe what is logical & established.

Guess what company doesn't exist anymore and got several other noticeable facets of Trek starship lore wrong.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Guess where Eaglemoss gets their data / info from?

Paramount.

What data exactly? Or did they just regurgitate from fanon sources?

 

[cooleddie74]

I pay scant attention to Eaglemoss mass and volume data regarding ships for all the aforementioned reasons including my own, which is mainly that Eaglemoss and other retail license holders often get the details wrong.

 

[Okmyx]

I just refer back to Farscape: Every Leviathan grows to accommodate its passengers. Its pilot's whim.

But I adapt it to Star Trek as such:

Every starship is built to accommodate its crew. Its author's whim (to fit the story).

 

[Fateor]

Fine, then. But the holodeck we see in SNW shouldn't be as advanced as the ones in TNG because, again, they act like it's something new and impressive.

I'd allow for some level of primitive holodeck technology (no smells, good, primitive sensations overall less "real") to account for even Berman era folks speaking of earlier holodeck technology but when we're shown it in S1-2 of TNG everyone acts like what we're shown is remarkable and brand new.

The holodeck we see in SNW was very clearly not as advanced as the one's in TNG given it takes the entire ship to generate a small manor and less then a dozen characters.

Also, there were very specifically no smells as La'an's statement was "I can practically smell".

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

According to CBS/Paramount, canon is only what appears on screen.
Unless any of those numbers appear on screen, they're not canon.

Using your logic, that would mean all the novels, video games and comics would also be canon, because they're all officially licensed.

As for Star Trek Canon, the definitions have changed over time & has some interesting exceptions.

Wikipedia's definition of Star Trek Canon:

The Star Trek canon is the set of all material taking place within the Star Trek universe that is considered official. The definition and scope of the Star Trek canon has changed over time. Until late 2006, it was mainly composed of the live-action television series and films[1] before becoming a more vague and abstract concept.[2] From 2010 until 2023, the official Star Trek website's site map described their database, which listed both animated and live-action series and films as its sources, as "The Official Star Trek Canon".[3][4]

Although Roddenberry exerted almost total creative control over the first seasons of Star Trek,[5] he preemptively rebuked any notion that he would be the final authority. He had hoped that Star Trek would go on after his death.[6] As Star Trek was constantly improved by each following generation, he expected people to look back upon its humble beginnings as just that, the simple beginnings of something much bigger and better.[7]
…
Generally, all live-action Star Trek television series and films have been considered part of the canon,[2] up to the point of contradiction or material the creators consider bad.[8] Star Trek: Lower Decks and Star Trek: Prodigy are accepted as canonical as well.[3][4] Until 2010, everything outside of the live-action television episodes and films were "traditionally" considered non-canonical, including Star Trek: The Animated Series.[2] However, large portions of the fan base, as well as Star Trek affiliates, supported The Animated Series being adopted as fully canonical.[9] With the relaunch of StarTrek.com in 2010, The Animated Series was added to the list of canonical shows included in the database, thus officially confirming the show's new status as part of the Star Trek canon.[10]
…
Gene Roddenberry was something of a revisionist when it came to the canon. People who worked with Roddenberry have remembered that he used to handle canonicity on a point-by-point basis rather than series-by-series or episode-by-episode. If he changed his mind on something, or if a fact in one episode contradicted what he considered to be a more important fact in another episode, he had no problem declaring that specific fact not canonical.
…
No definitive list exists of which films in particular Roddenberry disliked, or what elements in them he did not consider canonical. For example, the reference book Star Trek Chronology states that Roddenberry considered elements of Star Trek V and Star Trek VI to be apocryphal, but it does not specify to which particular elements in the films Roddenberry objected.
…
In general, Star Trek novels are not considered part of the canon.[2] This was a guideline set early on by Gene Roddenberry, and repeated many times by people who worked with him:
However, this rule is not without rare exceptions. Two Voyager novels written by Jeri Taylor (co-creator and then producer of Voyager), Mosaic and Pathways, were meant to be canonical, to be used as reference materials for use by Voyager's writers. However, as some of the background information mentioned in those books was never referenced in an episode of Voyager, or was contradicted in episodes written after they were published, their status within the canon is still open to debate.
…
There are also conflicting messages concerning "non-fiction" reference books such as The Star Trek Encyclopedia, Star Trek Chronology, Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual, and Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual. Unlike the novels and novelizations, these reference manuals have never been explicitly named as non-canonical, and the fact that they were officially sanctioned by Paramount and given to episode writers as guides serves to give them an aura of credibility. Roddenberry himself considered it part of the "background" of Star Trek.[13] Similarly, Michael Okuda and Rick Sternbach, artists and technical consultants since Star Trek: The Next Generation and the authors of several of these reference books, considered their work "pretty official".[14] However, they stop short of naming the books canonical, leaving the debate open. Star Trek writer and co-producer Ronald D. Moore dismissed such material, saying that, although the writing staff would often consult reference materials, they did not consider them canonical, reserving that title for the episodes and films.[15] However, in a series of posts to the official Star Trek website's forums, Viacom Senior Director Harry Lang established his opinion that the reference books are canonical, saying "Only the reference books (tech manual, encyclopedia, etc ...) and two books by Jeri Taylor are considered canon outside the tv show and movies."[16]
…
The novelizations of episodes and movies are not considered canonical. This is a tradition that also goes back to Roddenberry himself.
Star Trek comic books and magazines are generally not considered part of the canon
…
Nothing that takes place in Star Trek games, the Star Trek: The Experience attraction, or any other licensed material is considered canonical, nor are any unlicensed works such as Star Trek fan productions

Memory Alpha | Canon:

The Star Trek canon is generally defined as all released television series and films. The various "official" references (such as the Star Trek Encyclopedia or the Star Trek Chronology) may be used as a guide to canon information, but are not canon in and of themselves.

Ex Astris Scientia - What is Canon:

Official reference books

Books are non-canon because of their printed nature, even those officially released by Paramount/CBS via Pocket Books and authored by people working on the show (reviews). The TNG Technical Manual and the DS9 Technical Manual can be regarded as apocryphal because a good deal of them consists of facts that supplement the scarce technical information provided in the series itself and that were expected to be an official guideline for the writing staff too. The same applies to the Official Starships Collection and other ship-related publications by Eaglemoss in more recent years with their information on names and registries that were supposedly on the actual CG models. The Star Trek Encyclopedia extracts data from the canon episodes. Where it is correct, it is a reproduction of canon facts, but not canon by itself. Even a few occurrences of False Canon can be found in the Encyclopedia.

---

What data exactly? Or did they just regurgitate from fanon sources?

Ben Robinson was the one who did the work.

Ben Robinson is best known as the man behind Eaglemoss's Official Star Trek Starships collection, which in the last three years has become the largest and best-regarded collections of model Star Trek ships ever produced.

He has been involved with Star Trek for 20 years. Ben was the launch editor of the huge Star Trek Fact Files reference work, which sold over 50 million units. Then he went on to edit the US Star Trek: The Magazine, which ran between 1999 and 2003. He has co-written two Haynes Manuals, the first featuring all seven Enterprises, and the second focusing on the Klingon Bird-of-Prey. Ben is particularly passionate about the writing, design, and visual effects behind the series. In the last two decades he has conducted extensive interviews with many of the most significant figures in the history of Star Trek from Dorothy Fontana and Matt Jefferies to Michael Piller, Ira Steven Behr, Ron D. Moore, and Bryan Fuller.

Memory Alpha | Star Trek: The Official Starships Collection

Each accompanying twenty-page magazine (measuring 219×284 mm, except as noted) featured comprehensive articles about the design, filming, and on-screen appearances of the original studio model(s). Alongside the use of archival material, new interviews were conducted with a number of Star Trek cast members and production staff for the publication. Reference photographs of studio models, production stills, and concept art reproductions are also used extensively. Detailed "in-universe" information about the vessel's history, crew, weapons, and technology was explored within starship profiles and in other feature articles.

---

I pay scant attention to Eaglemoss mass and volume data regarding ships for all the aforementioned reasons including my own, which is mainly that Eaglemoss and other retail license holders often get the details wrong.

Mass is the data that is the hardest to get right, especially about vessels from the future.
Given that we don't know all the details about futuristic StarShips weight, it's best to leave that question un-answered.

Volume Data is relatively easy since they can get that info from the original creator of the models.
"L×W×H" is the easiest to figure out since you can just ask the creator of the model for his notes.

From my experience, Eaglemoss gets more details right than they get wrong.
I'm not going to throw out the baby with the bath water just because he made a few minor errors here & there.

---

Guess what company doesn't exist anymore and got several other noticeable facets of Trek starship lore wrong.

I know what happened to Eaglemoss, their bankruptcy is a seperate issue.

Mistakes happen in Publishing, that's why revisions or edits eventually get made down the line.
Nobody is going to be perfect on the first pass or even released version of data.

Some edits can be made later on, depending on what they get wrong.
That's a "Wait & See" issue, depending on if the reference publications come back in a new form.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Ben Robinson was the one who did the work.

And his position in Paramount is?

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

And his position in Paramount is?

He was hired by Paramount to do the work.

Ben Robinson

As of 1997, Robinson's first two years of working as freelancer in the employ of Midsummer Books Ltd. for GE Fabbri saw him serve as one of the editors(-in-chief) and writers of the comprehensive and long-running Star Trek Fact Files partwork magazine. He worked alongside Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens, Marcus Riley, Penny L. Juday, Larry Nemecek, Guy Vardaman, and Tim Gaskill on this project.

Following the tremendous success of the Fact Files and sales of more than fifty million copies, Robinson was reassigned to edit its US successor, Star Trek: The Magazine, in 1998. One of Robinson's most notable contributions to this publication was his in-depth interview of Star Trek: The Original Series' Art Director, Matt Jefferies, which was published over five issues during the 2000-2002 run of the magazine and is widely viewed as the most comprehensive first-hand account of the legendary designer's work on the USS Enterprise and Star Trek ever published.