Spoilers Canon, Continuity, and Pike's Accident

[Phoenix219]

I also think the original design looks fantastic with modern FX work, I don't think its dated, and that its a bit silly to think a couple groibles and lights and some slanted pylons make suuuuuuch a big different between it being viable or not. i actually think it sounds completely ridiculous, and for anyone that thinks one of those pictures looks worse then the other is pretty out there. I don't dislike the discoprise at all, and if it was in a reboot, i would be absolutely over the moon with the design (if it was in 2009, for instance) - but its just an unnecessary retcon unless they acknowledge the FC/ENT/TCW timeline rewrite.

 

[Yistaan]

Yeah, that one throws a wrench into things, because ENT is post-rewrite, and it still looks like TOS. I figure the ship left the Prime before the rewrite, and entered a mirrorverse after it, or something like that. No real explanation for the ISS looking different, unless a post-rewrite ship did the same exact thing, and overwrote the old one, or if its not technically the same mirror-verse.

We've only seen the ISS Enterprise in one other episode. The entire design history of the Mirror universe has nothing to do with the Prime's considering the USS Defiant literally showed up mid 22nd century there.

The simplest answer is that the ISS Enterprise was built with the TOS look in Mirror Mirror, then got refitted into the SNW look. In the Prime Universe it happened the other way around

 

[Phoenix219]

We've only seen the ISS Enterprise in one other episode. The entire design history of the Mirror universe has nothing to do with the Prime's considering the USS Defiant literally showed up mid 22nd century there.

The simplest answer is that the ISS Enterprise was built with the TOS look in Mirror Mirror, then got refitted into the SNW look. In the Prime Universe it happened the other way around

Yes, but since its all based on Defiant Prime, we know that it started from the OG universe, and OG configuration. Seems unlikely that they would come up with the SNW refit on their own, unless there was already a schematic for it, which in my own interpretation would be unlikely since my crutch is the timeline-was-rewritten. I realize we are fully into headcanon territory here. (when i over think, i get into thoughts like, was the mirror universe rewritten too, did they have a time war? since prime pre-rewrite NX was supposed to be destroyed, but post-TCW-rewrite it was saved and repurposed, yet the mirror universe still matched the Archer crew that was supposed to be dead in Prime.) It has been a very long time since I saw those episodes of ENT.

 

[HotRod]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.... Why is it so impossibly difficult to understand that the SNW Enterprise and the TOS Enterprise are different visual representations of THE SAME SHIP, simply looked at through a different visual aesthetic.

One being a modern visual look that greater connects the ship with newer additions to the franchise, like the NX-01. While the other look being the classic, 1960's look that is very connected to the era during which it was designed.

They've shown us this over and over again with things like using clips from The Cage that show the ship in its classic look, Boimler seeing the ship and not batting an eye, showing the ship in 2266, showing the ISS Enterprise, etc. The SNW Enterprise IS the TOS Enterprise.

And it doesn't overwrite the TOS Enterprise. It's still there in 79 episodes of The Original Series. It's still the most common thing seen in all the merchandise. It's still beloved. Hell, some creative staff on the shows still choose to show the classic look, and that's perfectly fine it's simply an artistic choice made on a fictional media program and not a historical piece.

My one dream is that SNW will someday do a classic episode. Classic in that they go to great efforts to make everything resemble TOS. The ship, the props, the uniforms, aliens, EVERYTHING. But it's only for one episode, and they do absolutely NOTHING to highlight things are different. It's just a regular episode of SNW, just presented in the classic aesthetic. Next episode, everything is back to the modern look. Maybe then we can finally put this debate to rest.

 

[Daedalus]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.... Why is it so impossibly difficult to understand that the SNW Enterprise and the TOS Enterprise are different visual representations of THE SAME SHIP, simply looked at through a different visual aesthetic.

One being a modern visual look that greater connects the ship with newer additions to the franchise, like the NX-01. While the other look being the classic, 1960's look that is very connected to the era during which it was designed.

They've shown us this over and over again with things like using clips from The Cage that show the ship in its classic look, Boimler seeing the ship and not batting an eye, showing the ship in 2266, showing the ISS Enterprise, etc. The SNW Enterprise IS the TOS Enterprise.

And it doesn't overwrite the TOS Enterprise. It's still there in 79 episodes of The Original Series. It's still the most common thing seen in all the merchandise. It's still beloved. Hell, some creative staff on the shows still choose to show the classic look, and that's perfectly fine it's simply an artistic choice made on a fictional media program and not a historical piece.

My one dream is that SNW will someday do a classic episode. Classic in that they go to great efforts to make everything resemble TOS. The ship, the props, the uniforms, aliens, EVERYTHING. But it's only for one episode, and they do absolutely NOTHING to highlight things are different. It's just a regular episode of SNW, just presented in the classic aesthetic. Next episode, everything is back to the modern look. Maybe then we can finally put this debate to rest.

Some fans just like to fit square pegs in round holes, it's just the nature of the beast.

Once SNW concludes, the debate will likely fizzle out. But for what it's worth, I'd also like to a classic Trek homage for the 60th. Vaseline on the lense and all.

 

[Phoenix219]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.... Why is it so impossibly difficult to understand that the SNW Enterprise and the TOS Enterprise are different visual representations of THE SAME SHIP, simply looked at through a different visual aesthetic.

One being a modern visual look that greater connects the ship with newer additions to the franchise, like the NX-01. While the other look being the classic, 1960's look that is very connected to the era during which it was designed.

They've shown us this over and over again with things like using clips from The Cage that show the ship in its classic look, Boimler seeing the ship and not batting an eye, showing the ship in 2266, showing the ISS Enterprise, etc. The SNW Enterprise IS the TOS Enterprise.

And it doesn't overwrite the TOS Enterprise. It's still there in 79 episodes of The Original Series. It's still the most common thing seen in all the merchandise. It's still beloved. Hell, some creative staff on the shows still choose to show the classic look, and that's perfectly fine it's simply an artistic choice made on a fictional media program and not a historical piece.

My one dream is that SNW will someday do a classic episode. Classic in that they go to great efforts to make everything resemble TOS. The ship, the props, the uniforms, aliens, EVERYTHING. But it's only for one episode, and they do absolutely NOTHING to highlight things are different. It's just a regular episode of SNW, just presented in the classic aesthetic. Next episode, everything is back to the modern look. Maybe then we can finally put this debate to rest.

But it was set in stone in the other direction with the ds9 tribbles episode, explicit in dialogue. That episode could have gone the other direction, and shown worf in TOS makeup.

 

[HotRod]

But it was set in stone in the other direction with the ds9 tribbles episode, explicit in dialogue. That episode could have gone the other direction, and shown worf in TOS makeup.

Hardly, it was a TV show that chose to do a novelty episode for nostalgic purposes. Nothing is "Set in stone" in a fictional universe. And again.... it's a different visual aesthetic. A visual reboot, if you want to call it something different. Things look different, but are still representing the same thing.

 

[Daedalus]

Speaking of Klingons, even SNW is guilty of visually rebooting a visual reboot. The Klingons we've seen bare no resemblance to the Discovery Klingons, and this was a very deliberate act on the part of Goldsman and Myers. They've been quite honest about it.

I will also add that I believe that the show will look more and more like TOS as it goes on. It won't be an exact recreation, but props and other articles will likely show up in later seasons that are instantly recognisable.

This is just based on a few other comments made by Goldsman over the years, but it doesn't mean cheap "cardboard" sets as such.

(They weren't cheap or cardboard, they were actually very expensive for the time.)

 

[Phoenix219]

Hardly, it was a TV show that chose to do a novelty episode for nostalgic purposes. Nothing is "Set in stone" in a fictional universe. And again.... it's a different visual aesthetic. A visual reboot, if you want to call it something different. Things look different, but are still representing the same thing.

So a visual retcon can also change explicit dialogue?

I guess I should follow my own rules and stop complaining about this one, since it happened before the timeline rewrite and temporal wars.

 

[HotRod]

So a visual retcon can also change explicit dialogue?

Yes. Welcome to Star Trek. Shit gets retconned all the time, since the very beginning. SNW's is nothing new in that regard.

 

[Dar70]

It worked as a novelty.

The old size never really worked to begin with.

I actually love the bridge window. It finally explains why they'd bother to put the bridge at the top of the ship.

Star Wars has a very different design aesthetic from an entirely different era of production.

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Well I have dragged this out before. But as you see here with some updated lighting it fits perfectly fine in modern production. There is nothing about the TOS Enterprise that screams 1960's to me except for the cheap production values (filming and lightning) and the fact that we all know it was created in the mid 60's. Again I'm not suggesting at all that the interior needed to be made in the cheap. The bridge could have been updated nicely with actual monitors above the work stations and updated surfaces etc. but I like the size of the original bridge.

That said. I do like the SNW Enterprise as it's own thing. I think it looks great and the bridge is awesome.

 

[HotRod]

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Well I have dragged this out before. But as you see here with some updated lighting it fits perfectly fine in modern production. There is nothing about the TOS Enterprise that screams 1960's to me except for the cheap production values (filming and lightning) and the fact that we all know it was created in the mid 60's. Again I'm not suggesting at all that the interior needed to be made in the cheap. The bridge could have been updated nicely with actual monitors above the work stations and updated surfaces etc. but I like the size of the original bridge.

That said. I do like the SNW Enterprise as it's own thing. I think it looks great and the bridge is awesome.

We'll have to agree to disagree, because as much as I adore the TOS Enterprise, I personally do find it dated. It's lack of surface details and very simple shapes scream 1960's to me. Anyone who has built a model of it can attest to that.

Plus, one does need to consider additions to the franchise. The TOS Enterprise was created with nothing to compare it to. The SNW Enterprise exists in a post NX-01 AND post USS Kelvin world. Hell, we can even throw the Franklin. She needed to look more advanced than those examples while still maintaining the spirit of the TOS Enterprise, which I think she does beautiful.

She also helps to create a pretty decent design lineage starting with the NX-01 and ending with the Refit.

 

[Daedalus]

A middle ground could've been found between Eaves' design and Jefferies', whereby you end up with something that looks like the original design at first glance, but as you get closer you notice the differences.

Version A, shown in the Designing Starships book, could have functioned as un update but kept a more familiar silhouette.

Obviously this is academic AF, since what's done is done and you can't change it. But one of the design specifications was that it could slowly evolve back into the TOS design. At least, according to Eaves, in the book.

 

[Nerys Myk]

We'll have to agree to disagree, because as much as I adore the TOS Enterprise, I personally do find it dated. It's lack of surface details and very simple shapes scream 1960's to me. Anyone who has built a model of it can attest to that.

Plus, one does need to consider additions to the franchise. The TOS Enterprise was created with nothing to compare it to. The SNW Enterprise exists in a post NX-01 AND post USS Kelvin world. Hell, we can even throw the Franklin. She needed to look more advanced than those examples while still maintaining the spirit of the TOS Enterprise, which I think she does beautiful.

She also helps to create a pretty decent design lineage starting with the NX-01 and ending with the Refit.

I do wish the SNWerprise* had the "cleaner" look of the refit on the hull. I sometimes feel the SNWperprise needs to be sent through the carwash.

*Pronouced "Snooperprise"

 

[HotRod]

I do wish the SNWerprise* had the "cleaner" look of the refit on the hull. I sometimes feel the SNWperprise needs to be sent through the carwash.

*Pronouced "Snooperprise"

Yeah, I'll agree with that, though I think a lot of it is from the lighting. I think she looks perfect under brighter conditions.

 

[fireproof78]

I do wish the SNWerprise* had the "cleaner" look of the refit on the hull. I sometimes feel the SNWperprise needs to be sent through the carwash.

*Pronouced "Snooperprise"

Isn't that the one Snoopy uses to fight the Red Gul?

 

[Tuskin38]

Speaking of Klingons, even SNW is guilty of visually rebooting a visual reboot. The Klingons we've seen bare no resemblance to the Discovery Klingons, and this was a very deliberate act on the part of Goldsman and Myers. They've been quite honest about it.

Though they have reused footage from DSC as Klingon War flashbacks/previously on.

And I think Dak'Rah's head ridges wouldn't look out of place in DSC, they go all along his scalp and down the back of his head.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I've always though this guy has a touch of the DISCO Klingons

 

[Daedalus]

Though they have reused footage from DSC as Klingon War flashbacks/previously on.

And I think Dak'Rah's head ridges wouldn't look out of place in DSC, they go all along his scalp and down the back of his head.

Much similar to The Cage footage, in that respect. It's all supposed to be the same thing in the end.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Yes, but since its all based on Defiant Prime, we know that it started from the OG universe, and OG configuration.

We actually have no idea how much the Empire was able to get from the Defiant. Hell, we don't even know if Hoshi's attempted coup was successful (for all we know, Imperial forces shot her out of the sky).

And I happen to agree with @HellRod, I find the TOS aesthetic extremely dated. I much prefer the Discoprise. I'm totally on board with it always having looked like that.

Although I admit I'm curious as to what will happen to the ship when the crew complement inevitably doubles to 430. Maybe that's what gives us the TOS look.