Brainstorm - Starfleet Marines (alittle different)

[Shamrock Holmes]

Yes, enlisted ranks exist. That was not in question.

This was about having a dedicated, marine combat medic as a permanent role in a small team of 10-15 people. There are already enlisted medical specialists serving alongside these would-be marines. That was the point.

A medic that isn't trained to operate in combat is going to be a liability to those around him.

Absolutely, which is exactly why these small marine detachments would access to a whole-ass starship medical department who are specialists in that particular thing.

The only real difference here is rather than having these marines are a separate branch with their own redundant roles for everything, they can utilize the specialists available.

Isn't half the point of this force that they can operate for extended periods of time off the ship?

Also, the idea that only doctors or nurses could do that sort of work is the same intellectualist-elitist BS that permeates much of Star Trek (all of modern Trek and parts of TNG in particular, but not DS9, VOY or ENT) and is even worse in the fandom.

I agree with you that in like, real world terms some of this is... suspect. But i'm trying to create something uniquely Star Trekian. But i'm also trying to look at it in terms of scale while also trying to make this fit (mostly) into established Star Trek.

Yeah, but in order to improve on what we see on the show, then IRL standards should be applied.

However, you do have a point to a degree, which is why I've been trying to point you away from the "all soldiers" Marines model and over to a more multi-purpose unit modelled on the Green Berets (which have a fairly Starfleet-ish mission profile in many ways), Navy SEALs and the like, because they can be combat-focused but still politically palatible in a way that overly and exclusively military units wouldn't be.

We know Starfleet ships don't carry around huge contingents of soldiers. They... could potentially carry around small numbers of them. The way that Starfleet tends to operate is largely individual ships out in the far flung reaches doing whatever it is they do. Having a completely and totally separate military unit with entirely it's own specialized people just doesn't really make sense in that context.

Now what I *COULD* potentially see, and perhaps something that fits in even better with Star Trek, is that the marines would pull some kind of duty when not actively deployed.

Again, as noted above, that's why them being combat soldiers only doesn't make sense, but having them be made up primarily of specialists who are extensively trained in both combat and a specialism that would be of use on board makes more sense.

So that enlisted medical lady from TNG could have potentially actually been the marine medic, working in sickbay because their marine detachment wasn't being used for anything. (she's not, I know, it's a theoretical).

Actually, all the female named medical personnel from TNG (certainly the ones that had dialogue) were officers (Crusher, Pulaski, Selar, Ogawa), the sole enlisted medical technician was Crewman 1st Class/Ables'man Simon Tarses, one of the ship's pharmaceutical technicians from The Drumhead, which seems like more of a "green side" role compared to other unnamed technicians that acted as first responders or assisted in surgical procedures.

 

[evilchumlee]

A medic that isn't trained to operate in combat is going to be a liability to those around him.

However, you do have a point to a degree, which is why I've been trying to point you away from the "all soldiers" Marines model and over to a more multi-purpose unit modelled on the Green Berets (which have a fairly Starfleet-ish mission profile in many ways), Navy SEALs and the like, because they can be combat-focused but still politically palatible in a way that overly and exclusively military units wouldn't be.

Again, as noted above, that's why them being combat soldiers only doesn't make sense, but having them be made up primarily of specialists who are extensively trained in both combat and a specialism that would be of use on board makes more sense.

(chooped this up awkward)

That's fair.

I think you have convinced me that this theoretical small marine unit would definitely stand to benefit from having a medical specialist. The initial idea was that these people would be combat specialists, and utilize other mission specialists from the pool of a ships crew. But it make more sense to go about almost opposite... there is a medic in the marine detachment, who while not in-combat is embedded into the ships normal medical staff.

You are convincing me more that there could be some more specific roles here. Perhaps it would be better to say additional specialists required could be pulled from ships crew. Going with the 16 number, 1 Command, 1 Medic, perhaps 2 Engineers. This is Star Trek so I might add in a dedicated "Science" generalist for more exotic issues that could crop up.

They wouldn't have the manpower to have specialized environmental combat units, so I don't see something like a "Mountain" unit or some such, nor do they have enough to have an entire team dedicated to heavy weapons or the like. Here's a potential idea for the general makeup of these teams... please keep the criticism coming.

2 Command (I can see wisdom in having a commanding officer and a 2nd in command)
1 Medic
1 Science Generalist (Science may pull duty as comms, electronic warfare, etc.)
1 Intelligence
1 Sniper (with the Star Trek tech, i'm not sure a dedicated spotter is necessary?)
2 Engineers
2 Heavy Weapons Specialists
6 "Riflemen" or whatever the appropriate designation would be.

So now hear me out, this is where it gets a bit into the weeds and where the whole "observer" aspect comes in. In the event that the situation erupts into a larger scale conflict that the marines alone can not handle, and there are no available reinforcements for an extended period of time, these marines now essentially break off into sub-commands of their own to divvy up the ships crew/local personnel to train/command.

It's a situation of "it's not perfect, but it's what we got". So the medic will get an influx of personnel from the medical department to oversee and try to train up to be serviceable combat medics for the duration necessary. The rest will take teams of people from applicable departments/best available and form sub-units. Our Heavy Weapons specialists will get 3-4 people to form two new heavy weapons units, which they will command, etc.

(They wouldn't be taking ship/station critical people as they also still need to operate, so there shouldn't really be command conflicts with say, the Chief Engineer of the ship and the Combat Engineer command.)

It should be also restated that this all intended as something of a stop-gap... the ship/station crews aren't mean to be long term combatants, they just need to hold on long enough for proper reinforcements to arrive.

(I also have an idea for a "Federation Army" of sorts, that is more similar to NATO. It's not exactly a standing force all the time, rather it's a framework for member world ground forces to work together when necessary. These Marines are the force directly under Federation/Starfleet command.)

Actually, all the female named medical personnel from TNG (certainly the ones that had dialogue) were officers (Crusher, Pulaski, Selar, Ogawa), the sole enlisted medical technician was Crewman 1st Class/Ables'man Simon Tarses, one of the ship's pharmaceutical technicians from The Drumhead, which seems like more of a "green side" role compared to other unnamed technicians that acted as first responders or assisted in surgical procedures.

Ah I had forgotten about Tarses. I was referring to an unnamed medical female who appeared with O'Brians NCO rank pip.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

The initial idea was that these people would be combat specialists, and utilize other mission specialists from the pool of a ships crew.

Up to a point, I think that's still a viable model, it's just where you draw the line.

You are convincing me more that there could be some more specific roles here. Perhaps it would be better to say additional specialists required could be pulled from ships crew.

Absolutely.

They wouldn't have the manpower to have specialized environmental combat units, so I don't see something like a "Mountain" unit or some such, nor do they have enough to have an entire team dedicated to heavy weapons or the like.

Probably not as the team level for the Marines, no.

2 Command (I can see wisdom in having a commanding officer and a 2nd in command)
1 Medic
1 Science Generalist (Science may pull duty as comms, electronic warfare, etc.)
1 Intelligence
1 Sniper (with the Star Trek tech, i'm not sure a dedicated spotter is necessary?)
2 Engineers
2 Heavy Weapons Specialists
6 "Riflemen" or whatever the appropriate designation would be.

I'd split them slightly differently, basically to allow for a more even division of labour, and I think there could be some variation on a per mission basis:

2 Command (At least one of whom is a commissioned officer to allow for upscaling)
2 Combat Medical Technican (who also doubles as the Life Sciences Officer)
2 Physical Sciences Specialist (mission dependent).
2 Operations/Communications Officer (also act as Intelligence Officers)
2 Engineering Technicans.
2 Armory Specialists (Heavy Weapons, Sniper)
2 Mission Specialists (Pilot, Doctor, Engineer, Diplomat et al)
4 Scout/Observers or Security Guards (mission dependent)

It's a situation of "it's not perfect, but it's what we got". So the medic will get an influx of personnel from the medical department to oversee and try to train up to be serviceable combat medics for the duration necessary.

On most ships, I would suspect that additional would be drawn from Life Sciences, Admin etc rather than sickbay, unless they were dealing with a complicated medical problem that necessitated a doctor taking one of the Mission Specialist slots.

Our Heavy Weapons specialists will get 3-4 people to form two new heavy weapons units, which they will command, etc.

Assuming that they're Petty Officer equivalents, I'd imagine there's a fair bit of flex there up to command of their own squad depending on available personnel.

(I also have an idea for a "Federation Army" of sorts, that is more similar to NATO. It's not exactly a standing force all the time, rather it's a framework for member world ground forces to work together when necessary. These Marines are the force directly under Federation/Starfleet command.)

I typically call them Starfleet Reserves, but Federation Reserves or F. Reserves might serve the above better.

Ah I had forgotten about Tarses. I was referring to an unnamed medical female who appeared with O'Brians NCO rank pip.

I don't play a great deal of attention to unnamed characters that don't have any dialogue unless there's something otherwise noteworthy about them.

 

[evilchumlee]

I'd split them slightly differently, basically to allow for a more even division of labour, and I think there could be some variation on a per mission basis:

2 Command (At least one of whom is a commissioned officer to allow for upscaling)
2 Combat Medical Technican (who also doubles as the Life Sciences Officer)
2 Physical Sciences Specialist (mission dependent).
2 Operations/Communications Officer (also act as Intelligence Officers)
2 Engineering Technicans.
2 Armory Specialists (Heavy Weapons, Sniper)
2 Mission Specialists (Pilot, Doctor, Engineer, Diplomat et al)
4 Scout/Observers or Security Guards (mission dependent)

That works too. I would probably remove the dedicated slot for mission specialists, with the understanding that those specifically would be attached from the local pool. They could have some kind of dedicated mission specialist, but i'm not sure it would fit the normal guidelines. I would shy away from "mission dependent" labels because they don't really know what the mission will be. The mission dependent aspect would probably be the more agile, adaptable part of this where you reassign a job around.

On most ships, I would suspect that additional would be drawn from Life Sciences, Admin etc rather than sickbay, unless they were dealing with a complicated medical problem that necessitated a doctor taking one of the Mission Specialist slots.

I think that might be where we're a bit misaligned here. My suggestion was that there wouldn't be ship personnel taking any of these slots. The 16 man squad are all dedicated marines. Additional support needed would be drawn from the local pool of personnel when necessary/available.

They would draw from sickbay when the 16 Marines are not enough and they need more support. Yeah perhaps the sickbay doctors may be among the last you want to draw away from the ship, but if they are going to be in a situation where they will be seeing some prolonged fighting, I would think they would need some full-fledged medical doctors. Worst case scenario, the ship can fly off and get more... the boots on the ground are kind of stuck there.

Assuming that they're Petty Officer equivalents, I'd imagine there's a fair bit of flex there up to command of their own squad depending on available personnel.

That suggestion was less reliant on rank than experience. We've already broached the topic of Starfleet ship crews being fairly awful at ground combat. Part of what I was trying to do here was create a force that is more specially trained exactly for that, to carry out the missions on their own... or serve as the experienced command specialists when a situation arises that they need to get a bunch of ship crew to take ground combat roles.

They would surely have enough people of appropriate rank... but probably don't have enough people of appropriate experience.

I typically call them Starfleet Reserves, but Federation Reserves or F. Reserves might serve the above better.

I like to differentiate these forces from Starfleet. Starfleet likely has only a relatively small number of dedicated combat troops under their direct command.

The Federation through it's member worlds has access to many more, but the Federation has never been implied to be a particularly strong central government, and it REALLY seems like there is no standing army. That doesn't necessarily apply to the member worlds, though.

In my attempts to break down and try to figure out how the Federation works, I work under a headcanon that Starfleet having ANY ground combat (or even military in general) capability was something of a compromise in the early Federation, with alot of debate around if military control should be something under control of the Federation at large, or remain in the hands of its sovereign member states.

Ultimately, the answer is "both?" with Starfleet being allowed limited military capabilities (which it almost certainly quietly exceeded), and especially limited dedicated ground combat forces (If they aren't supposed be a military, why do you need combat troops?)

I don't play a great deal of attention to unnamed characters that don't have any dialogue unless there's something otherwise noteworthy about them.

That one sticks in my head only because of how rare any NCO's are in Trek. That case was probably actually a mistake... the costume department just tossed O'Brians rank pip on her... but it worked.

I'm always going to be critical of what being an NCO even means in Trek, but I really don't think i'll budge on it having the same meaning as it does in modern military terms. The exact extent to how different it is I could find debatable.

Some of it depends on how you perceive Starfleet. Alot of people see it and say "military" and go with full-on military organization. I take them at their word, that Starfleet "isn't a military" and go from there. I see Starfleet as much more of a scientific/exploration/humanitarian organization that pulls double duty in "peacekeeping". It's... partly military, so they use a military-style rank system and some military traditions, but they also don't appear to treat them anywhere near as rigid as a modern military would.

I really do think a defining factor of Officer vs. NCO is Starfleet Academy. Those who go to Starfleet school and graduate are Starfleet "Officers", which may afford some job benefits/perks. Those who join Starfleet through other means become "Enlisted". The biggest difference from modern military organization is that being Enlisted doesn't really limit or otherwise dictate what jobs you can do (up to a point), it mostly just potentially makes the journey to higher ranks/position a bit longer.

I think of a somewhat streamlined NCO rank system with less steps where the "equivalent" NCO rank will be lower than the Officer rank, but in the way that every NCO rank is below every Officer rank. I had it something like Crewman -> Crewman I -> Crewman 2 -> Petty Officer -> Ensign -> Chief Petty Officer -> Lt. Jg -> Lt -> Master Chief Petty Officer -> Lt. Commander -> Commander.

A Master Chief might not be able to jump to Commander normally, but with the appropriate criteria could move to Lt. Commander, that criteria mostly being either completely a truncated Academy program or there was a decision that their experience was equivalent.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I think that might be where we're a bit misaligned here. My suggestion was that there wouldn't be ship personnel taking any of these slots. The 16 man squad are all dedicated marines.

Nor am I... except possibly in very select circumstances where the intention isn't to get into a fight, but intelligence suggests that it might be possible, or potentially if they're piggybacking a military or intelligence off a more conventional Starfleet operation.

Additional support needed would be drawn from the local pool of personnel when necessary/available.

Perhaps I wasn't clear, but that was also my intention, I just think that Starfleet personnel (particularly the support roles) could still be covered by Starfleet personnel if led by an appropriately qualified "marine".

They would surely have enough people of appropriate rank... but probably don't have enough people of appropriate experience.

I don't believe in automatic promotions, IMO the two run hand in hand. Though this might be a bit more challenging in the early days.

In my attempts to break down and try to figure out how the Federation works, I work under a headcanon that Starfleet having ANY ground combat (or even military in general) capability was something of a compromise in the early Federation, with alot of debate around if military control should be something under control of the Federation at large, or remain in the hands of its sovereign member states.

Ultimately, the answer is "both?" with Starfleet being allowed limited military capabilities (which it almost certainly quietly exceeded), and especially limited dedicated ground combat forces (If they aren't supposed be a military, why do you need combat troops?)

Yes, Starfleet lacking "combat arms" and relying on "police" for its defence functions is literally the only practical reason that Starfleet "isn't a military" that is even remotely justifiable, as this was basically the criteria used by many Navies (including the Royal Navy and probably the US Navy) pre the world wars.

Some of it depends on how you perceive Starfleet. Alot of people see it and say "military" and go with full-on military organization. I take them at their word, that Starfleet "isn't a military" and go from there. I see Starfleet as much more of a scientific/exploration/humanitarian organization that pulls double duty in "peacekeeping". It's... partly military, so they use a military-style rank system and some military traditions, but they also don't appear to treat them anywhere near as rigid as a modern military would.

To which I'd point to the US Coast Guard, which is not an active military force (but has legal authority to act as one) and retains enhanced specialist teams that aren't considered Special Operations Forces literally because they're not under the DOD, and some elements of the FBI are similar, probably other organisations too.

I really do think a defining factor of Officer vs. NCO is Starfleet Academy. Those who go to Starfleet school and graduate are Starfleet "Officers", which may afford some job benefits/perks. Those who join Starfleet through other means become "Enlisted". The biggest difference from modern military organization is that being Enlisted doesn't really limit or otherwise dictate what jobs you can do (up to a point), it mostly just potentially makes the journey to higher ranks/position a bit longer.

Well, it generally seems to limit you to "below decks" at least below Chief Petty Officer, which might limit progression opportunities (and isn't the case in modern militaries).

I think of a somewhat streamlined NCO rank system with less steps where the "equivalent" NCO rank will be lower than the Officer rank, but in the way that every NCO rank is below every Officer rank. I had it something like Crewman -> Crewman I -> Crewman 2 -> Petty Officer -> Ensign -> Chief Petty Officer -> Lt. Jg -> Lt -> Master Chief Petty Officer -> Lt. Commander -> Commander.

I've paid with a couple of different structures, but if I was going to break it down by role, I'd probably do it something like:

"Workers":

1: Crewman/Cadet/Operator
2: Ables'man/Crewman 1st Class/Lance Corporal

"Trainer/Independent Duty":
3: Petty Officer 2nd Class/Corporal
4: Petty Officer 1st Class/Sergeant

"Officer of the Watch/Team Leader":
5: Chief Petty Officer/Senior Sergeant*/** or Ensign***.

"Command Advisor":
5A: Senior Chief Petty Officer/Master Sergeant**.
5B: Master Chief Petty Officer/Chief (Master) Sergeant***.

Assistant Department Head:
5: Ensign*
6: Lieutenant JG**/Second Lieutenant**
7: Lieutenant***/First Lieutenant***

Department Head:
7: Lieutenant**/First Lieutenant**
8: Lieutenant Commander***/Major***
9: Commander***/Lieutenant Colonel***

Executive Officer:
7: Lieutenant*/First Lieutenant*
8: Lieutenant Commander***/Major***
9: Commander***/Lieutenant Colonel***


* = minor, auxiliary and training vessels
** = mid-size vessels.
*** = larger vessels and flagships.

 

[evilchumlee]

Nor am I... except possibly in very select circumstances where the intention isn't to get into a fight, but intelligence suggests that it might be possible, or potentially if they're piggybacking a military or intelligence off a more conventional Starfleet operation.

Ah I see. That makes sense, and actually plays into my desire for this to an adaptable force.

Perhaps I wasn't clear, but that was also my intention, I just think that Starfleet personnel (particularly the support roles) could still be covered by Starfleet personnel if led by an appropriately qualified "marine".

We roundabout agreed on that. That was my whole thing with this. These are direct combat soldiers, but they are ALSO intended to be able to command/train other forces when the need arises.

To some extent, it's just the preferred nomenclature that might be mildly confusing things. This force really aren't "Marines" in the definition we would apply to them today. "Marines" is sort of used in a quasi-traditional way, with a bit of "rule of cool" added on.

Yes, Starfleet lacking "combat arms" and relying on "police" for its defence functions is literally the only practical reason that Starfleet "isn't a military" that is even remotely justifiable, as this was basically the criteria used by many Navies (including the Royal Navy and probably the US Navy) pre the world wars.

And I think that was always the intention. Starfleet is really paramilitary.

Looking deeper into the lore, I think the justification behind it is that The Federation wasn't really supposed to have a military, being closer to a Space UN than Space USA. Member worlds have their own military forces. But there enough people within the Federation that also really figured... it would really benefit everyone if the Federation DID have some kind of military, so Starfleet pushed to get more and more authority.

To which I'd point to the US Coast Guard, which is not an active military force (but has legal authority to act as one) and retains enhanced specialist teams that aren't considered Special Operations Forces literally because they're not under the DOD, and some elements of the FBI are similar, probably other organisations too.

Yeah for sure. Starfleet is way closer to the US Coast Guard than the US Navy, although they're still aren't quite direct analogue's. Starfleet is it's own unique beast.

Well, it generally seems to limit you to "below decks" at least below Chief Petty Officer, which might limit progression opportunities (and isn't the case in modern militaries).

We know from the canon that an Ensign is also generally a "below deck" rank. I don't think it would limit progression opportunities, especially when you factor that Starfleet isn't particularly rigid in its rank structure.

I've paid with a couple of different structures, but if I was going to break it down by role, I'd probably do it something like:

"Workers":

1: Crewman/Cadet/Operator
2: Ables'man/Crewman 1st Class/Lance Corporal

"Trainer/Independent Duty":
3: Petty Officer 2nd Class/Corporal
4: Petty Officer 1st Class/Sergeant

"Officer of the Watch/Team Leader":
5: Chief Petty Officer/Senior Sergeant*/** or Ensign***.

"Command Advisor":
5A: Senior Chief Petty Officer/Master Sergeant**.
5B: Master Chief Petty Officer/Chief (Master) Sergeant***.

Assistant Department Head:
5: Ensign*
6: Lieutenant JG**/Second Lieutenant**
7: Lieutenant***/First Lieutenant***

Department Head:
7: Lieutenant**/First Lieutenant**
8: Lieutenant Commander***/Major***
9: Commander***/Lieutenant Colonel***

Executive Officer:
7: Lieutenant*/First Lieutenant*
8: Lieutenant Commander***/Major***
9: Commander***/Lieutenant Colonel***


* = minor, auxiliary and training vessels
** = mid-size vessels.
*** = larger vessels and flagships.

I like that. That all works.

I do particularly like the differentiation between the types of ships/stations and the like. Smaller vessels and the like may be way more NCO heavy.

The only thing I might change is the designations for department heads. Both Ensigns and NCO's can be department heads, as evidenced by O'Brian and Harry Kim... and while Kim is in a special case given the situation, he was also never promoted to Lt. in order to be Chief of Ops... and O'Brian is Chief of Operations for DS9 while an NCO. I suppose that could fall under "Officer of the Watch", but I think it's a bit more indictive of Starfleet not really being as concerned about rank... especially since they don't actually work to worry about their "pay" is coded... I really think rank is to some extent divorced from position. Not entirely, but in some regards I think Starfleet ranks are more there to provide a reward for accomplishment rather than being a strict definition of available roles.

EDIT -

Don't take that as rank is meaningless... there IS still a command hierarchy and rank will strongly correlate to job role, but just not as rigidly strict as it would in a modern military.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

And I think that was always the intention. Starfleet is really paramilitary.

No, the actual definition of 'paramilitary' is:

Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more


paramilitary
/ˌparəˈmɪlɪt(ə)ri/
https://www.google.com/search?sa=X&...2ahUKEwjXhrq80YuIAxXRhv0HHTKNDBYQ3eEDegQIMBAM
adjective
adjective: paramilitary; adjective: para-military

1. (of an unofficial force) organized similarly to a military force.
   "illegal paramilitary groups"
   

noun
noun: paramilitary; plural noun: paramilitaries; noun: para-military; plural noun: para-militaries

1. a member of a paramilitary organization.

Looking deeper into the lore, I think the justification behind it is that The Federation wasn't really supposed to have a military, being closer to a Space UN than Space USA.

That's nonsense perpetuated by the pacifist, intellectual elitest "Starfleet = NASA" crowd and was debunked by the TOS movies at the latest.

Member worlds have their own military forces.

Which is very similar to how it works in the US, particularly if we assume that Starfleet controls all expeditionary and large-scale exploration capacity.

Yeah for sure. Starfleet is way closer to the US Coast Guard than the US Navy, although they're still aren't quite direct analogue's. Starfleet is it's own unique beast.

Actually, if you look at the Coast Guard's remit, and compare it with most non-US naval forces it's pretty similar. The Royal Australian Navy is a particularly helpful comparison, as is the Japanese as far as the "not a military" politicking goes.

We know from the canon that an Ensign is also generally a "below deck" rank.

Not really, just not "A-Team" as is where. Most of the relief officers that substitute for the Main Characters when they're off-duty or on Away Teams are Ensigns and the occasional JG.

The only thing I might change is the designations for department heads. Both Ensigns and NCO's can be department heads, as evidenced by O'Brian and Harry Kim... and while Kim is in a special case given the situation, he was also never promoted to Lt. in order to be Chief of Ops... and O'Brian is Chief of Operations for DS9 while an NCO.

Partly influenced by stuff from other services like the British and the Australians, I mainly use "Department Head" only when the per-shift would get into double figures (with the obvious exception of Medical).

Kim was "Operations Officer", but was not Chief of Operations aka Operations Manager, who is the ranking officer in the Operations Department (and often but not always the First or Second Officer) that was Tuvok.

I suppose that could fall under "Officer of the Watch",

No, Officer of the Watch is the officer/NCO in charge of a particular watch in a specific location (Bridge, Engineering et al).

I really think rank is to some extent divorced from position. Not entirely, but in some regards I think Starfleet ranks are more there to provide a reward for accomplishment rather than being a strict definition of available roles.

Rank is certainly a measure of seniority and experience, but "chain of command" could potentially be a little more flexible than in mainstream military forces as this is somewhat the case in SpecOps and even more so in law enforcement.

 

[evilchumlee]

No, the actual definition of 'paramilitary' is:

I can pull out a Star Warsian from a certain point of view here. Starfleet might be considered paramilitary because it's officially not a military...

That's nonsense perpetuated by the pacifist, intellectual elitest "Starfleet = NASA" crowd and was debunked by the TOS movies at the latest.

The TOS movies that ended with Starfleet disarming?

I don't think this answer is entirely binary. Starfleet may have had varying levels of militarization through its history, with the TOS movies being likely it's most militaristic prior to to disarming and leaving the scientific and exploration programs unaffected...

Which is very similar to how it works in the US, particularly if we assume that Starfleet controls all expeditionary and large-scale exploration capacity.

Yes but my comment went in tandem with the Federation not having a military.

Actually, if you look at the Coast Guard's remit, and compare it with most non-US naval forces it's pretty similar. The Royal Australian Navy is a particularly helpful comparison, as is the Japanese as far as the "not a military" politicking goes.

That's fair.

Not really, just not "A-Team" as is where. Most of the relief officers that substitute for the Main Characters when they're off-duty or on Away Teams are Ensigns and the occasional JG.

Yes, but then we also have been treated to Lower Decks showing us Ensigns being used as outright menial labor.

Kim was "Operations Officer", but was not Chief of Operations aka Operations Manager, who is the ranking officer in the Operations Department (and often but not always the First or Second Officer) that was Tuvok.

Tuvok is of Chief of Security. Kim is definitely the Chief of Operations, even if it's just by default and nobody actually formally gives him the title.

No, Officer of the Watch is the officer/NCO in charge of a particular watch in a specific location (Bridge, Engineering et al).

Ah. Wasn't familiar with the term.

Rank is certainly a measure of seniority and experience, but "chain of command" could potentially be a little more flexible than in mainstream military forces as this is somewhat the case in SpecOps and even more so in law enforcement.

I think Starfleet rank is realistically way more important as a measure of a seniority/experience than as a prerequisite for a job. By the nature of it, it would certainly correlate quite often. In terms of role, I don't think rank really matters all that much until full Commander. At that level of command, the rank does matter for the job. Before that, Starfleet is pragmatic enough that if an Ensign is better at something than a Lieutenant, they'll have the Ensign do it. Presumably... hopefully... the Ensign would be fairly quickly promoted anyway.

 

[fireproof78]

Yes, but then we also have been treated to Lower Decks showing us Ensigns being used as outright menial labor.

New officers often receive that because it is expected of them to learn all the different facets of their job, including the grunt work. It's like having to pull the graveyard shift, or other nonpreferred duty activities. Every job has them.

I recall one scifi story had a junior officer basically running around and doing fetch work for the department heads, including some rather odd requests, and random routes. At the end, the CO reviews through all he has learned, including the best ways to access materials in an emergency, the quickest routes through the ship, and locations of all the different compartments.

I don't think this answer is entirely binary. Starfleet may have had varying levels of militarization through its history, with the TOS movies being likely it's most militaristic prior to to disarming and leaving the scientific and exploration programs unaffected...

To me, this is why the Marine Department makes the most sense and having it leaning closer to the militarized side allows them to continue their exploration duty, while having a "tip of the spear" military operators who can command a battlefield, or adjust tactically to each situation. Regardless of what Riker or Starfleet leadership things, tactics are still a province of Starfleet life.

Rank is certainly a measure of seniority and experience, but "chain of command" could potentially be a little more flexible than in mainstream military forces as this is somewhat the case in SpecOps and even more so in law enforcement.

Agreed. There might even be a need to distinguish line officers and support officers in these instances for operational command duties.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I can pull out a Star Warsian from a certain point of view here. Starfleet might be considered paramilitary because it's officially not a military...

But it is an official armed force of the state authorised under law to conduct offensive operation, therefore whatever is it isn't an unofficial paramilitary force.

Yes, but then we also have been treated to Lower Decks showing us Ensigns being used as outright menial labor.

Which is stupid except maybe the first few months of the officer's "rookie tour".

Tuvok is of Chief of Security. Kim is definitely the Chief of Operations, even if it's just by default and nobody actually formally gives him the title.

So, Tuvok -- who is a member of the Operations Department -- reports to Kim?

No, he doesn't. Kim reports to Tuvok.

So, therefore regardless of whether Kim uses the title of Operations Officer, Communications Officer or both and regardless of whether Tuvok uses the title of Chief of Operations/Operations Manager he is the ranking member of that department, which is reflected by the fact that around a dozen "departments" report to him.

I think Starfleet rank is realistically way more important as a measure of a seniority/experience than as a prerequisite for a job. By the nature of it, it would certainly correlate quite often.

More often that not outside of significant personnel losses IMO.

 

[fireproof78]

Which is stupid except maybe the first few months of the officer's "rookie tour".

It's also a comedy so some of the delegation is exaggerated. Most of it. Probably all of it.

 

[evilchumlee]

Which is stupid except maybe the first few months of the officer's "rookie tour".

You might think it's stupid, but it's what it is.

So, Tuvok -- who is a member of the Operations Department -- reports to Kim?

Tuvok is Security/Tactical, not Operations. Those are not the same department.

More often that not outside of significant personnel losses IMO.

I would accept that as true, although it gets way more muddy with the way Starfleet handles the NCO ranks... Crewman and Ensigns apparently do the same jobs. But by and large, yes rank will correlate with position.

New officers often receive that because it is expected of them to learn all the different facets of their job, including the grunt work. It's like having to pull the graveyard shift, or other nonpreferred duty activities. Every job has them.

Right, but if that's the case, the distinction between "Officer" and "NCO" becomes largely meaningless if they are expected to do the same jobs...

To me, this is why the Marine Department makes the most sense and having it leaning closer to the militarized side allows them to continue their exploration duty, while having a "tip of the spear" military operators who can command a battlefield, or adjust tactically to each situation. Regardless of what Riker or Starfleet leadership things, tactics are still a province of Starfleet life.

I don't disagree. That was quite literally the entire purpose of this exercise.

I think it's more the line of how militarized they are / what the organization looks like. I was trying to craft something more in-line with Starfleet, rather than trying to bolt-on the US Marine Corps to Star Trek.

What you said here is why I was trying to make this force a more adaptable force, not quite as rigidly bound to a rulebook, being able to quickly reorganize on the fly as the situation demands. They're both direct combat soldiers, but ALSO the command corps for a larger force composed of elements taken from whatever local forces are available.

I was shying away from strict divisional hierarchies only because of the scale... I really think the nature of space warfare, especially through the lens of Star Trek, would need to be able to reorganize on the fly at a moments notice. Whatever you have available in the immediate area is probably what you have to work with. You can't count on reinforcements being deployed, and given we never actually SEE these people in Star Trek... this theoretical force would be on the smaller side.

 

[fireproof78]

Right, but if that's the case, the distinction between "Officer" and "NCO" becomes largely meaningless if they are expected to do the same jobs...

Well, no, because the scale of the job often adjusts depending on training and experience. An NCO can often command troops, and take some responsibilities similar to an officer, but often has a much narrower focus, but still responsible to the mission, the ship and it's crew.

 

[Robert Bruce Scott]

I think it's more the line of how militarized they are / what the organization looks like. I was trying to craft something more in-line with Starfleet, rather than trying to bolt-on the US Marine Corps to Star Trek.

I quite literally added the U.S. Marines to Star Beagle Adventures. In the Hunter/Beagle trekverse, Star Fleet does not provide military services. Those are provided by member governments. All Earth military services belong to the United Earth Governments and are organized by nation/state (similar to the way Union forces were organized by state during the American Civil War.)

To me what was far more interesting was WHY in a time when humans no longer have to work or worry about currency, why would anyone join the Marines? That became the focus of the first four scenes of Star Beagle Adventures Episode 4 - Starship Trooper (you'll have to scroll down a bit to the beginning of Episode 4)

Thanks!! rbs

 

[evilchumlee]

Well, no, because the scale of the job often adjusts depending on training and experience. An NCO can often command troops, and take some responsibilities similar to an officer, but often has a much narrower focus, but still responsible to the mission, the ship and it's crew.

That's fair.

I think that's where my breakdown happens with NCO's in relation to Starfleet. I think it's similar to how modern militaries work, but different. I do think that a Starfleet NCO will generally have a more narrow focus on their role, given that they have been trained specifically for that role, whereas an officer has received the generalist education from Starfleet Academy (or another accredited institution... Burnham received a Starfleet commission after graduation the Vulcan Science Academy.)

I don't necessarily disagree with the overall role of the NCO in Starfleet, I think I moreso disagree with the general organization and think the distinction between officer and NCO in Starfleet is not as dramatic or rigid as it would be in a modern military. I think my caveat is that within the Marines, being more militaristic than mainstream Starfleet, there may be a more rigid organization.

I quite literally added the U.S. Marines to Star Beagle Adventures. In the Hunter/Beagle trekverse, Star Fleet does not provide military services. Those are provided by member governments. All Earth military services belong to the United Earth Governments and are organized by nation/state (similar to the way Union forces were organized by state during the American Civil War.)

In my reboot universe, I don't quite do this, but there's a vestige anyway.

Starfleet DOES do some military operations, but they're supposed to be limited. Member worlds very much do maintain their own fleets and ground forces.

The US Marines don't quite exist by name, but many of the US Marine traditions made their way in the United Earth MACO's (United Earth Military Authority Combat Operators) as the US military formed the core of United Earth's military forces, and by extension, when the Starfleet Marines were established, they were initially dominated by MACO's who established the early traditions.

The MACO's could almost be used interchangbly with US Marines in the earliest days, and the name persist into the 24th century. It's no longer an acronym, but there are a few units out there with the nickname "MACO".

As an aside, my version of the Starfleet Marines for my separate reboot universe are even more militarized than my idea for "real" Starfleet Marines and follow a bit more closely to a modernish structure... to an extent. There are two eras for the Marines; pre- and post-Khitomer.

My pre-Khitomer Marines are a much larger organization and are their own department within Starfleet. Post-Khitomer, with the disarmament of Starfleet, they get reorganized and saved from total disbanding by slotting them as a department under Security/Tactical with significantly reduced forces. At this point their closer to what i'm generally saying here. Pre-Khitomer they have more at their disposal. Post-Khitomer they actually drop the official "Marine" name and become "Advanced Tactical Operations"... but they're still colloquially referred to as Marines, and they still carry over the traditions, including their own rank system/insignia.

 

[fireproof78]

I think that's where my breakdown happens with NCO's in relation to Starfleet. I think it's similar to how modern militaries work, but different. I do think that a Starfleet NCO will generally have a more narrow focus on their role, given that they have been trained specifically for that role, whereas an officer has received the generalist education from Starfleet Academy (or another accredited institution... Burnham received a Starfleet commission after graduation the Vulcan Science Academy.)

Narrow in the sense that they are driven by the operation, while an officer has to focus on the overall larger mission, the impact to the ship, and its relationship to the rest of the fleet, task force, or Starfleet as a whole.

I don't necessarily disagree with the overall role of the NCO in Starfleet, I think I moreso disagree with the general organization and think the distinction between officer and NCO in Starfleet is not as dramatic or rigid as it would be in a modern military. I think my caveat is that within the Marines, being more militaristic than mainstream Starfleet, there may be a more rigid organization.

It would need to be more rigid in the Marines, and honestly should be more rigid in Starfleet as a whole otherwise you end up with a non line officer in charge because of rank, like Stocker, and that leads to a near war with the Romulans.

 

[evilchumlee]

Narrow in the sense that they are driven by the operation, while an officer has to focus on the overall larger mission, the impact to the ship, and its relationship to the rest of the fleet, task force, or Starfleet as a whole.

It would need to be more rigid in the Marines, and honestly should be more rigid in Starfleet as a whole otherwise you end up with a non line officer in charge because of rank, like Stocker, and that leads to a near war with the Romulans.

I put precisely zero stock into that. Under no circumstances is an officer automatically better than an NCO. An officer may have had different training, but I see no reason why an officer would simply just always be superior.

There are plenty of officers who have blundered something fierce. Hell, we know that Pike... an officer... if put into the "Balance of Terror" situation does lead to a war with the Romulans.

 

[evilchumlee]

I want to take a side track here, not so much about the organization and all that.

Staying within the general realm of Star Trek, what kind of gear might a 2270's Starfleet Marine Corps have?

They would have access to the mainstream Starfleet weaponry we've seen. We know "Photon Grenades" exist.

I've headcanoned that the TR-116 is an offshoot of a Marine ballistic weapon. I generally go with the Marines of this time using something like the "BR-100", which just stands for "Ballistic Rifle". There are some iterations of it, with the "TR" being a fancy offshoot the Marines probably never intended to use for being overcomplicated.

I'm envisioning a type of heavy phaser, something akin to a SAW that has a huge power pack and is intended to be fired in a wide-beam for a long duration.

I've thought of something like a "Tactical Tricorder" that is beefed up with a more robust scanning range and pulls double duty as something a comms hub.

 

[fireproof78]

I put precisely zero stock into that. Under no circumstances is an officer automatically better than an NCO. An officer may have had different training, but I see no reason why an officer would simply just always be superior.

They wouldn't. That's what I was arguing for. There's a difference between line personnel and staff personnel and they command different situations.

There are plenty of officers who have blundered something fierce. Hell, we know that Pike... an officer... if put into the "Balance of Terror" situation does lead to a war with the Romulans.

Agreed. In "The Deadly Years" a staff officer, ranked commodore, takes command and nearly causes disaster due to inexperience.

 

[evilchumlee]

Agreed. In "The Deadly Years" a staff officer, ranked commodore, takes command and nearly causes disaster due to inexperience.

To be completely honesty as I read more about it, I really feel like the greatest use for NCO ranks are for pay purposes... something not relevant to Trek.

I'm even more in the camp now that the distinction between officer and NCO isn't particularly important in Trek, and by and large just denotes the type of education/training received. Sometimes, that matters. Sometimes, it does not. One isn't necessarily "better" than the other.