Disaster relief?
Brainstorm - Starfleet Marines (alittle different)
- Thread starter evilchumlee
- Start date
You don't need combat soldiers for disaster relief.
That's the kind of thing that Starfleet proper would excel at.
I've been looking at both the US Army Special Forces and the Marine Raiders as I think the "less is more" approach of both is more applicable to this concept than the regular combat arms (though both can operate as and indeed lead infantry as needed):
Level 1:
- Special Forces use a basic functional unit ('A-Team') of twelve including an Army Captain, a (Chief) Warrant Officer and ten NCOs with specialisms in operations/intelligence, heavy weapons, EOD/combat engineering, medical and communications.
- Raiders split their function unit of fourteen operators into three sub-components, a HQ -- Marine Captain, Master Sergeant 2-i-C, a Communications Gunnery Sergeant and an Intelligence SNCO (Staff or Gunnery Sergeant) -- and two Tactical Elements -- led by a Staff Sergeant Operator, and including three Sergeant/Corporal Operators and a specialist medic per element.
- For the SEF, I'd probably drop the second commissioned officer and swap in the Staff NCO as second in command, but otherwise keep the Army structure (perhaps adding three extra heavy weapons or EOD/combat engineering specialists) or as it's a bit more flexible than the Marine version for the same size.
Level 2:
Special Forces Companies are split into six 'A-Teams' and a 'B-Team' HQ of a similar size for a component of around 85-90.
Marine Companies are much smaller, with only four Teams and a HQ Element for a compact component of ~60.
For SEF, I'd have the 150-person Detachment structured for either total or split operations with eight 15-person Teams and a 30-person HQ Element capable of splitting into two task units under the Detachment Commander (Major) and the Detachment XO or ranking Team Leader (Captain).
Level 3:
Above the A-B-C level, Special Forces are organised first into battalions (three specialist companies, and a support and battalion HQ) and then into groups (three or four battalions, roughly equivalent of a conventional regiment, but can draw on the resources of psychological/intelligence groups, a civil affairs brigade and logistics brigade and a similarly sized aviation command for a total force strength of 22 to 23,000.
The Marines are a leaner force of only about 1,500 (roughly the same as a single Special Forces Group) and requires support from existing MEFs and Army or Navy supply chains to operate long-term.
Level 1:
- Special Forces use a basic functional unit ('A-Team') of twelve including an Army Captain, a (Chief) Warrant Officer and ten NCOs with specialisms in operations/intelligence, heavy weapons, EOD/combat engineering, medical and communications.
- Raiders split their function unit of fourteen operators into three sub-components, a HQ -- Marine Captain, Master Sergeant 2-i-C, a Communications Gunnery Sergeant and an Intelligence SNCO (Staff or Gunnery Sergeant) -- and two Tactical Elements -- led by a Staff Sergeant Operator, and including three Sergeant/Corporal Operators and a specialist medic per element.
- For the SEF, I'd probably drop the second commissioned officer and swap in the Staff NCO as second in command, but otherwise keep the Army structure (perhaps adding three extra heavy weapons or EOD/combat engineering specialists) or as it's a bit more flexible than the Marine version for the same size.
Level 2:
Special Forces Companies are split into six 'A-Teams' and a 'B-Team' HQ of a similar size for a component of around 85-90.
Marine Companies are much smaller, with only four Teams and a HQ Element for a compact component of ~60.
For SEF, I'd have the 150-person Detachment structured for either total or split operations with eight 15-person Teams and a 30-person HQ Element capable of splitting into two task units under the Detachment Commander (Major) and the Detachment XO or ranking Team Leader (Captain).
Level 3:
Above the A-B-C level, Special Forces are organised first into battalions (three specialist companies, and a support and battalion HQ) and then into groups (three or four battalions, roughly equivalent of a conventional regiment, but can draw on the resources of psychological/intelligence groups, a civil affairs brigade and logistics brigade and a similarly sized aviation command for a total force strength of 22 to 23,000.
The Marines are a leaner force of only about 1,500 (roughly the same as a single Special Forces Group) and requires support from existing MEFs and Army or Navy supply chains to operate long-term.
I like alot of that, and I do think it addresses a point in organization... the SEF may work better organized less in full out "Army" or "Marine" terms, and be organized more as we organize Special Forces today. The SEF Special Forces are like... Special Special Forces.
I think i'm less against other departments of Starfleet having some sort of specialized ground forces, although nowhere near the extent of the SEF. It would stand to reason that if i'm going to make Starfleet Security a sort of catch-all NSA/FBI/Homeland Security organization, they would reasonably have some forces.
Just for clarification purposes although not super relevant, In my own general expanding of the universe, I've decided that Starfleet Intelligence and Starfleet Security ARE separate organizations, but they weren't always. Starfleet Security grew from the ENT-era from not even an actual named department but just a sub-organization tasked with the security of Starfleet facilities, to getting it's down division and additional responsibilities, such as interstellar law enforcement and that grew to intelligence gathering.
A bit after the formation of the Federation and rapid expansion, Starfleet Security had too much on its plate and most of the intelligence apparatus was spun off into it's own division. Starfleet Security still engages in intelligence, but it's focused more domestically.
I'm keeping the Discovery-suggested idea that Section 31 was more legitimate at some point. Starfleet Security derived much of its authority from Section 31 of the charter and the intelligence side became colloquially known as "Section 31". It's Section 31 that splinters off and becomes "Starfleet Intelligence", but through the 22nd to the mid-23rd century, "Section 31" and "Starfleet Intelligence" are synonymous. Eventually, S31 gets out of control, "officially" disbanded and no longer a part of Starfleet Intelligence.
Both of those organizations would have some sort of more combat-oriented forces. The Starfleet Security people would probably be based around things like SWAT-style law enforcement, counter-terrorism, things of that nature. Starfleet Intelligence I would imagine would be geared towards agent extraction and what not.
The Fleet part of Starfleet wouldn't have much aside from its security officers. There might be more-highly trained security officers, but they are mostly trained for guard duty/military police-type roles.
This is reasonable, because even the US ARMY has three different Intelligence type services, including Counter-Intelligence Division, a full Army Command that collaborates with other Federal Intelligence agencies, among others. So, having two sections, is more than reasonable, as well as collaborating with more Federal services, i.e. the Federation Security office mentioned in Star Trek III.
Again, very reasonable to treat Security as a security force meant to secure installations and guard them, vs. proactive infantry moving in to territory, taking it and capturing it. Once established by Special Forces Operators, I could see SF Security moving in as support.
This all seems very reasonable.
It works with the general vibe of what i'm going for and how the differentiation between "Starfleet" and "Federation" tends to work.
Starfleet -insert agency- is an independent organization directly under the authority of the Federation with the jurisdiction to act on behalf of the Federation.
Federation -insert agency- would be something more like an alliance, UN, European Union, etc. type agency. More of a mult-national agency set up by contributions from member worlds.
It's somewhat splitting hairs, but Federation assets would still belong to a member world. Starfleet assets belong to the Federation as a whole.
I want the Federation to be set up closer to the UN overall. Member worlds representation comes through Ambassadors sent to the Federation Council.
Pretty much.
You certainly could have this be the case, though I'd suggest more "EU" than "UN" as the former is an actual supranational level of government whereas the latter is basically a supranational debating society.
Given the existence of High Commissioners (who IRL manage Imperial and now Commonwealth interests in internally sovereign member nations) canonically, I'd be inclined to pivot towards the Commonwealth (or the EU as previously noted), as it at least has some of the relevant characteristics, whereas the UN is pretty much lacks all of them.
YMMV.
Yeah, somewhere around UN and EU. I used "UN" more as a generic term.
I've already established a NATO-like counterpart for Starfleet.
I think the Federation would have some aspects EU and UN.
Another option I'm considering for scalability is the permanent members of the SEF are all warrant or commissioned officers*, so that each Operator can also serve as Team Leader for dedicated specialist teams or sections of enlisted Reservists if required.
* This would also be the case with Fleet Ops for starships and support vessels, though not necessarily starbases and ground outposts.
Bumping with this some new ideas.
I originally came at this trying to make a very detailed, organized hierarchy for Starfleet Marines although some recent thinking made me circle back and rethink the whole concept.
I think Starfleet Marines might work better as a more fluid organization with smaller organizational groups.
I'm thinking... and this is kind of spitballing... something like being organized into units of 10 or so that are essentially self contained battle groups. These Marines would be something of a cross between combat soldiers and observers... rather than having an entire infrastructure of their own, the Marines are really just specially trained ground troops who otherwise exist within the Starfleet hierarchy.
For smaller operations, their contained group may well be enough. For slightly larger operations, rather than having units upon units of Marines shipped in... the Marines act as the command corps for available Starfleet personnel and "conscript" them so to speak into ground combat roles. For instance, if you had a ship with a Marine unit, they would be the go-to for ground operations. But in the event that there is a larger operation, the Marines would take over command of the ground operation and would requisition ship personnel.
For larger scale operations, you may well see multiple Marine units, at which point they would form into a more traditional hierarchal structure, although on a somewhat ad hoc basis. I'm still working under the idea that the Marines are a fairly small organization, so in the event that you had say... four 10 man Marine units working together, and all four were led by a Sergeant, they wouldn't need to spend time figuring out who should be in command... they'll generally know what forces are in their sector and already have that established.
I think i'm really into this idea of the Marines being more like a SWAT team / special forces that is highly mobile, agile, and adaptable without a rigid hierarchical system in place.
I originally came at this trying to make a very detailed, organized hierarchy for Starfleet Marines although some recent thinking made me circle back and rethink the whole concept.
I think Starfleet Marines might work better as a more fluid organization with smaller organizational groups.
I'm thinking... and this is kind of spitballing... something like being organized into units of 10 or so that are essentially self contained battle groups. These Marines would be something of a cross between combat soldiers and observers... rather than having an entire infrastructure of their own, the Marines are really just specially trained ground troops who otherwise exist within the Starfleet hierarchy.
For smaller operations, their contained group may well be enough. For slightly larger operations, rather than having units upon units of Marines shipped in... the Marines act as the command corps for available Starfleet personnel and "conscript" them so to speak into ground combat roles. For instance, if you had a ship with a Marine unit, they would be the go-to for ground operations. But in the event that there is a larger operation, the Marines would take over command of the ground operation and would requisition ship personnel.
For larger scale operations, you may well see multiple Marine units, at which point they would form into a more traditional hierarchal structure, although on a somewhat ad hoc basis. I'm still working under the idea that the Marines are a fairly small organization, so in the event that you had say... four 10 man Marine units working together, and all four were led by a Sergeant, they wouldn't need to spend time figuring out who should be in command... they'll generally know what forces are in their sector and already have that established.
I think i'm really into this idea of the Marines being more like a SWAT team / special forces that is highly mobile, agile, and adaptable without a rigid hierarchical system in place.
That sounds more like the Starfleet Special Forces idea that I suggested on thread as the initial tier above regular Starfleet Security "police" officers.
Not a bad idea, I've considered that I time or two myself.
A 10-person unit that is only intended to be a basic sub-unit could consist of privates or equivalent and be lead by a Corporal*, with a Sergeant* as the "detachment leader", but they're not going to have the level of experience or authority to also form the nucleus of the command element of a larger force.
Realistically, each member of the 10-person unit needs to be at least a Sergeant*, with the unit leader role being held by a Senior NCO, Warrant Officer or Junior Commissioned Officer and the detachment commander being at least a more experienced Junior or Mid-Grade Commissioned Officer.
US Army Special Forces Organisation
MARSOC Organisation
SEALs Organisation
Particularly on-point to the above is this passage on the third link:
Each SEAL Team (or "squadron") is commanded by a Navy commander (O-5), and has eight operational SEAL platoons and a headquarters element. Operationally, the "Team" is divided into two to four 40-man "task units" (or "troops"). Each task unit consists of a headquarters element consisting of a task unit commander, typically a lieutenant commander (O-4), a task unit senior enlisted (E-8), a targeting/operations officer (O-2/3) and a targeting/operations leading/chief petty officer (E-6/7). Under the HQ element are two to four SEAL platoons of 16 men (two officers and 14 enlisted SEALs, and sometimes assigned non-NSW support personnel); a company-sized combat service support (CSS) and/or combat support (CS) consisting of staff N-codes (the Army and Marine Corps use S-codes); N1 Administrative support, N2 Intelligence, N3 Operations, N4 Logistics, N5 Plans and Targeting, N6 Communications, N7 Training, and N8 Air/Medical.
Each 16-man platoon can be task organized for operational purposes into two eight-man squads, four four-man fire teams, or eight two-man sniper/reconnaissance teams. The size of each SEAL "Team", or "squadron", with two to four task units (containing a total of eight platoons) and support staff is approximately 300 personnel. The typical SEAL platoon has an OIC (officer in charge), usually a lieutenant (O-3), a platoon chief (E-7/E-8), and two squads commanded by a LTJG (O-2) and a squad leader (E-6). The remaining members of the squad are operators (E-4 to E-6) with their specialty skills in ordnance, communications, diving, and medical. The core leadership in the troop and platoon are the commander/OIC and the senior enlisted NCO (Senior Chief/chief).
* NB: This assumes that you're following US Armed Forces practices where a Corporal typically has ~3 years TIS and a Sergeant has ~4 years TIS. OTOH, if you're following British Armed Forces practices, then a Corporal lines up roughly with a US Sergeant in rank (but typically has 6-8 years TIS) and a Sergeant typically has at least twelve, then it's a little more viable, but still problematic IMO.
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*snip*
I could see adapting this somewhat.
Given it's Starfleet, and explicitly "Not a military", the Marines... while more combat focused than other areas of Starfleet will still have more traditional Starfleet-type duties.
Riffing on the generally officer-heavy Starfleet, I can potentially see that these field units ARE essentially all officers... just as Starfleet ships tend to be primarily officers.
There are more marines available. They're the lower ranked people doing other jobs, and shuffled around as necessary to gain experience and what not.
A point of this would be that those small units (I ass-pulled the number 10... nice round number... I could do something larger like the 16-man SEAL platoon. That works too.) really wouldn't have Privates and the like with them... in the event they needed more man power, they would draw from available local Starfleet personnel. In the event they get into a larger operation, that's when the lower-ranked Marines would get pulled from whatever non-combat duty they were doing and carted out.
I do believe that with this line of thinking, the word "Marines" may be somewhat clouding the actual intent of these people. In reality, the "Marines" ARE Special Forces. Rather than being a literal branch of service of Starfleet, they're just... the special forces of Starfleet and they are intended to be both direct ground combat troops AND command for a larger force drawn from Starfleet crews.
You do bring up a good point though. These would have to be some highly trained and experienced people in order to be in this role... so... where the hell do they come from? What are the lower ranks doing? In moving away from the idea of the Marines as a branch and more of another department of Starfleet, i'm thinking they get drawn from Starfleet.
My current vision is that I want to keep the Marines with a somewhat separate identity. They use different ranks, have slightly different uniforms (although in this case, i'm also ok with them wearing the normal Starfleet uniforms with a green department color), and just a generally different mission focus. In this case, most personnel who end up in the Marines didn't start there. They probably made their way through security or some such first before being transferred to Marines full time.
I do think there would be some personnel who enlisted directly into the Marines, but they're probably doing various other duties for the most part. Starfleet in general tends to be heavily focused on a "jack of all trades" style of training, I see no reason why the Marines would be any different. They focus more heavily on ground combat... but they get the full run of Starfleet training.
I can see lower ranked Marines being stationed around the frontier of the Federation, doing security work on colonies, working on patrols and what not, providing manpower for humanitarian operations. They're always available for a rapid deployment when called, when the "Field Units" or whatever they may be called send the call out.
The doctrine so to speak would be the Field Unit (i'm going with this a place holder for this 10-man shipboard units) is deployed from the ship. If the situation demands it and they need reinforcement, the ship starts sending people... presumably drawn from security first, medical as needed, etc. The shipboard personnel are expected to be temporary reinforcement to allow the dedicated Marines elsewhere to respond. In general Star Trek comparisons, the Marine Field Units would be akin to a starships bridge crew.
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In military terms, a "unit" is typically lead by a field grade officer and is roughly equivalent of a composite battalion (for the USMC Marine Expeditionary Unit), regiment or (battle)group.
A 10-20 person sub-unit is more typically referred to as a "team", though this can be used for a sub-sub-unit which is always commanded by an NCO or warrant officer, in which case the term is typically either a section or squad.
My thoughts on structure would be:
Officer - Commanding (Major) -- Detachment (~40 personnel including 3-person HQ).
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Officer - Commanding (First Lieutenant*) -- Section (~10 personnel. OC, XO, 8 Specialist NCOs).
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Executive Officer (Senior NCO, (C)WO, Ensign or Second Lieutenant).
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Specialist NCO (4 each of Corporal/Sergeant or Petty Officer 2nd/1st Class (E5 to E6)). Typically crewed to split off into Security Section, Medical Section, Engineering Section and Weapons/Operations Section using regular starship/base personnel or local or Starfleet reserve forces.
* O-3 equivalent of a Starfleet Lieutenant or Army Captain.
A 10-20 person sub-unit is more typically referred to as a "team", though this can be used for a sub-sub-unit which is always commanded by an NCO or warrant officer, in which case the term is typically either a section or squad.
My thoughts on structure would be:
Officer - Commanding (Major) -- Detachment (~40 personnel including 3-person HQ).
|
Officer - Commanding (First Lieutenant*) -- Section (~10 personnel. OC, XO, 8 Specialist NCOs).
|
Executive Officer (Senior NCO, (C)WO, Ensign or Second Lieutenant).
|
Specialist NCO (4 each of Corporal/Sergeant or Petty Officer 2nd/1st Class (E5 to E6)). Typically crewed to split off into Security Section, Medical Section, Engineering Section and Weapons/Operations Section using regular starship/base personnel or local or Starfleet reserve forces.
* O-3 equivalent of a Starfleet Lieutenant or Army Captain.
I'm always happy for the input.
In this specific case, i'm less concerned with modern military terminology. I'm trying to make something more military that general Starfleet, but still within the realm of Starfleet's general terminology and what not.
Although, "Team" is a good term too. I think I like "Squad" even more. I was using the term "unit" a bit more colloquially.
I can see something like that, although I was going for something even a bit less formal at least on the general day to day.
Bringing up HQ, i've considered that a bit and i'm wondering is a dedicated HQ even necessary with what is available for Starfleet, especially on a smaller scale? I feel like alot of what the HQ does could be handled by an officer with a tricorder... or even potentially "HQ" being the ship.
But if I was going to break down a structure, I would go with the general Starfleet model and there would be less in the way of NCO's. They exist, but Starfleet is officer heavy and alot of what NCO's would do in a modern military is handled by officers in Starfleet. It's just... a different world. Rank also tends to not matter as much as position in Trek, although I would give that a more combat-focused department may be more rigid in that regard.
I want it to focus much more around the smaller scale, on the shipboard squads. I originally just threw 10 out there, but I think I like 16... the Commander officer and 15 personnel. Given the unpredictable nature of space, I don't think I would drill down specifically what the makeup of the rest of the squad is. There would be more... guidelines for that. These squads are going to be expected to be able to handle basically anything they might find. They won't be super-specialized, much like the rest of the Starfleet.
HQ in this sense doesn't mean a building (though I would imagine that any ship(-type) that they use on a regular basis would at least have a dedicated room, perhaps similar to the "operations center" that they added to the NX-01 during the Xindi Crisis at minimum.
HQ in this sense means any staff or officers who work directly for the Detachment Commander rather than being attached to a specific team. In this case, I would envision a Senior Enlisted Advisor (Senior Sergeant, Master Sergeant), a Yeoman or similar and a Mission Specialist slot (Doctor, Engineer, Pilot) as needed.
I'm not really a fan of the idea that Starfleet is mostly if not exclusively commissioned officers (though I'm more amenable to the idea that like all police forces any "independent duty personnel" are essentially warrant officers at minimum with no structural or institutional barriers to promotion into the commissioned ranks.
As far as the makeup of the teams goes, I'd generally favour the approach taken by most if not all of the SpecOps units linked above and have the same basic core line-up (you're always going to need security and operations/engineers and medical is very common) and then supplement with additional personnel on a case by case basis.
HQ in this sense means any staff or officers who work directly for the Detachment Commander rather than being attached to a specific team. In this case, I would envision a Senior Enlisted Advisor (Senior Sergeant, Master Sergeant), a Yeoman or similar and a Mission Specialist slot (Doctor, Engineer, Pilot) as needed.
I'm not really a fan of the idea that Starfleet is mostly if not exclusively commissioned officers (though I'm more amenable to the idea that like all police forces any "independent duty personnel" are essentially warrant officers at minimum with no structural or institutional barriers to promotion into the commissioned ranks.
As far as the makeup of the teams goes, I'd generally favour the approach taken by most if not all of the SpecOps units linked above and have the same basic core line-up (you're always going to need security and operations/engineers and medical is very common) and then supplement with additional personnel on a case by case basis.
Oh I get that. What I’m saying is that what in a modern military takes a team of several people to do, in this context a single person can do. I don’t think the commander would need a staff.
Sure there would be times when the commander would have somebody there as an advisor or specialist or whatever need be, but does that need to be an actual part of the permanent command structure?
From what we have seen, NCOs in Starfleet are uncommon. They exist, but they don’t seem to work in the way modern NCOs do. The only real difference seems to be simply that "Officers" went to Starfleet Academy, "Enlisted" did not. There doesn't seem to be any true, functional distinction between the two up until the Officer rank of Commander.
I do think that Starfleet works much like what you said there, with no real barriers into promotion to commissioned ranks... but maybe from a different reasoning is that it's just largely irrelevant. We don't specifically know Starfleet's NCO ranks but we do that Lt. Commanders can essentially "test into" a Commander promotion. I think the same might be true for NCO's. Once an NCO has topped out in rank, whatever nomenclature is used, they could potentially then do the same and take the full Commander test.
That's fair. In the context here, i'm not sure security, operations/engineers, and medical would be necessary as a codified, permanent structural part of the Marine squad... they have Starfleet ship personnel for that.
I like the 16 man number now, the commanding officer and 15 Marines. I think those squads would have a core lineup that's a bit more a guideline, but all of the specialties within the squad are directly combat-based. Any support personnel required would be taken from the ship. Under this idea, the Marines are only nominally under a different command... they aren't a disparate branch to the Navy, they're a job within the Navy. Being a generalist squad, there would be Marines who have some knowledge/experience in different fields, but if they need a specialist... they have access to them. I'm thinking even in the grander scheme, outside of the specialized shipboard squads, specialist roles are just assigned from Starfleet. I don't see the need for the Marines to have their own dedicated personnel... at least not in a particularly widespread fashion.
The idea here is that the Marines are not just combat troops. They also have an incredibly important role as "observers" to train/command the rest of Starfleet when needed. The Marines would be a small organization compared to the rest of Starfleet. So yes... the Marines *DO* have some dedicated medical staff, but rather than acting directly as medics within squads, those medical personnel are mostly there to organize embedded medical personnel. I do think they would have their own, again albeit fairly small, R&D department. I've made a backstory for the TR-116 that it was derived from the Marines R&D. I like the idea that the Marines have ballistic weaponry at their disposal along with the usual Starfleet phasers. In the TNG+ era, they used the "BR-110" (Battle Rifle-110), with the TR-116 being an offshoot of it (Transporter Rifle-116).
On the overall organization, I had this idea that's definitely moving a bit off from straight canon, although I think alot of it would still fit in. Within Starfleet, there are the main departments which in some ways act as quasi-branches, Security, Operations, Science, etc. Those departments each (or, generally) have a sub-command that is more focused on the military side of things. When the Federation Council formally declares war, the organization chart "flips" with the military-focused command taking over from the traditional Starfleet department. An example in my org chart I made is there a differentiation between "Starfleet Engineering" and "Starfleet Corps of Engineers", with the Corps of Engineers being the combat-focused arm of Starfleet Engineering. In peacetime its subordinate to Starfleet Engineering, but in wartime, the Corps of Engineers is the top command.
I had the Marines under Security / Tactical, but as a somewhat special case. Even in peacetime, the Marines are only nominally under Security / Tactical command. In wartime, the Marines take over the command... although in practice, not much changes. It mostly just makes it easier for the Marines to transfer personnel quickly. Unless absolutely needed, they just have Security / Tactical operate as usual.
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If they were intended to only be used as is in the squad role, then no, but having them would make it a lot easier for the Commanding Officer to retask to a Detachment Commander role in charge of dozens of personnel if not more.
Actually, when we see them, they pretty much do work exactly like they do IRL, it's just that the show suffers with Main Characters Do Everything, so with the exception of O'Brien and Odo, the enlisted roles get overtaken by the equivalent main character (Chief Engineer, Security Chief etc).
No, Officers are for the most part generalists (even the doctors are to a degree), enlisted personnel are trained in a particular area and with the exception of O'Brien due to his long experience, struggle to adapt to working outside that (seen most clearly with the engineering team in Starship Down (DS9)
I disagree.
Not sure how I feel about Chiefs jumping all the way to Commander, but I could see them skipping at least Ensign and maybe JG as they're essentially going from "shift commander" to "department head" so at least Lieutenant would be reasonable.
Security (aka weapons specialist) and medical are pretty much going to be required in any combat situation, and operations/engineers would likely focus on demolitions and setting up base-camps and the like, which is a massive deficiency in canon vis-a-vis extended operations IMO.
Agreed on the first point, in fact that's basically how it works in canon, though TrekLit kinda confused the issue with the mini-series.
That's fair. Yeah I could definitely see an HQ -insert divisional word- for a larger force. That makes sense. In vision at the moment is that while an HQ -unit- is absolutely a thing on a higher organizational level, it's not something that would always be in place, at least in any functional role. The plan exists for when they need it but by and large, these forces are going to be almost by their nature more fluid and independent.
A vast majority of the time, these Marines are going to be operating on their own / with their ships or local areas whatever they made be doing. A good amount of time, there won't be dozens of personnel. Surely there will be some higher level officers who coordinate on the grander scale, at which point the permanent HQ totally makes sense, but I don't think there would be much in way of a middle command until such time as it's necessary to have one.
Kind of? We very rarely see Enlisted at all, and we know Ensigns do a ton of what would otherwise be NCO work and there really doesn't seem to any actual rhyme or reason to if an NCO or Officer is doing the job. In an absolutely strict command aspect it may matter... but Starfleet has never really been shown to be all that rigid.
That's why I tend to observe that in Starfleet, the distinction between NCO and Officer just is not the same as it is in modern militaries. They use similar terminology and a very rough version of the organizational structure, but they really aren't quite the same thing.
The key to remember is that "Starfleet isn't a military". It is in function, but within their organizational culture, they aren't. It's just not going to work the same way as a full-fledged military would.
Those are basically the two examples. There's an Engineering team that wasn't good at ground combat, and there's O'Brian who is good at everything and has served in multiple roles (including Chief Tactical Officer...)
Although I don't necessarily think you are wrong, but I think we get to a similar conclusion from different directions. Yeah, Enlisted are trained to do a thing. Officers go to the Academy, where they get a more universalist training. By that virtue, yeah an officer/Academy Graduate is generally going to be more adaptable than a someone who just enlisted into Starfleet.
Judging by O'Brian, and the general outlook of Starfleet, rank/status doesn't really matter as much as merit and ability do. By and large, up until that Commander level (that's been established as the "jump" into true Command), I really don't think Officer/NCO actually matters in any meaningful capacity. If Joe enlists in Starfleet and gets trained as a security officer, but it turns out that Joe is absolutely amazing at Stellar Cartography... Starfleet is not the type of organization to say "No. You're enlisted. Go do security stuff." They'll say "Welcome to Stellar Cartography."
NCO's will probably just be more likely to be specialized into a particular role.
This is Star Trek, where in a reality, Kirk jumped from Cadet to Captain.
Rank in Starfleet is not necessarily a completely linear path. It usually is. But i'm not sure there is any actual regulation that one must actually proceed through all the ranks to get somewhere.
I would maybe add a caveat that a Chief jumping to Commander may have some extra steps, probably including some kind of proof of equivalent Academy education or relevant experience. In the end, Starfleet is way more concerned about ability than remaining rigidly within a rank structure.
I'm still mostly convinced that NCO ranks in Starfleet are somewhat irrelevant and by and large essentially mirror 1:1 officer ranks... ish anyway. "Crewman" would be below Ensign, but I think at some point, the ranks are mostly interchangeable.
Yes... which is why I think these "Marines" are generalists just like much of the rest of Starfleet. They'll have medical training. If specialist medic is required, they'll get one from their local pool of Starfleet personnel.
These Marines i'm speaking of are something more akin to ENT Maco's / More Specialized Ship Security / SWAT Team. These are people who are combat focused employed by an organization that touts itself as not being a military. When there is a situation that would require a more specialized officer, they have access to them. They just won't necessarily be full-time Marines.
Going really into the weeds of canon and sifting through even the smallest of mentions, there ARE two seemingly separate divisions, "Starfleet Engineering" and "Starfleet Corps of Engineers". I just headcanon the Corps of Engineers to be combat engineers because... that's usually what a Corps of Engineers is?
I know my idea for the command flip-flop is a bit unorthodox, but this whole exercise to make this as within Star Trek as possible. Having a full fledged ground combat military force just doesn't really work with Star Trek. Going with the idea that "Starfleet isn't a military", but WILL BE when it needs to be... I think the idea of a more Civilian-Oriented Command during peacetime, with more combat-ready departments ready to go and taking over the overall command at such time as Starfleet is now actually a military.
That would mostly apply to the high echelons of command though, it's not like a ship is going to have it's Captain removed for the Military Captain. It's more on the higher end of command, when Starfleet is focused on Exploration stuff, have the Explorers in command. When it's focused on military stuff, have the Soldiers in command.
In which case, they're utterly pointless because they'll be just as amateurishly incapable of doing that role as canon Starfleet personnel have proved to be.
Well I could point out that the training for a combat medic is very different from a regular corpsman or paramedic.
Or I I could point that an enlisted medical specialist is literally one of only five identified medical personnel who appeared in all of TNG and that several other similar individuals appeared in the background of episodes.
Or I could point out the inherently obvious point that absent decades of experience (as in O'Brien), a specialist will always be the superior option for that particular thing than a generalist based on experience if nothing else.
Generalists in the realm of ground combat.
Starfleet personnel have proven to be outright miraculous as starship generalists. I see no reason why this could not extend to ground combat.
That's fair... although from what we've seen in Trek, for the scant few times we have seen anything of the like... they're using Starfleet or civilian doctors in the role.
Yes, enlisted ranks exist. That was not in question.
This was about having a dedicated, marine combat medic as a permanent role in a small team of 10-15 people. There are already enlisted medical specialists serving alongside these would-be marines. That was the point.
Absolutely, which is exactly why these small marine detachments would access to a whole-ass starship medical department who are specialists in that particular thing.
The only real difference here is rather than having these marines are a separate branch with their own redundant roles for everything, they can utilize the specialists available.
I agree with you that in like, real world terms some of this is... suspect. But i'm trying to create something uniquely Star Trekian. But i'm also trying to look at it in terms of scale while also trying to make this fit (mostly) into established Star Trek. We know Starfleet ships don't carry around huge contingents of soldiers. They... could potentially carry around small numbers of them. The way that Starfleet tends to operate is largely individual ships out in the far flung reaches doing whatever it is they do. Having a completely and totally separate military unit with entirely it's own specialized people just doesn't really make sense in that context.
Now what I *COULD* potentially see, and perhaps something that fits in even better with Star Trek, is that the marines would pull some kind of duty when not actively deployed. So that enlisted medical lady from TNG could have potentially actually been the marine medic, working in sickbay because their marine detachment wasn't being used for anything. (she's not, I know, it's a theoretical).
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