Brainstorm - Starfleet Marines (alittle different)

[evilchumlee]

Hey all, this isn't a straight fan fic per say. This is a brainstorming session for a thing i'm working on, part of it regards Starfleet Marines. The background is that i'm, for fun, doing a reboot Trek universe that aims to fit very closely with Prime, but more fleshed out and detailed, with changes here there as I see fit.

PART of what I want to do is establish a Marine Corps type (type is a key word) organization for Starfleet.

Here is what I have so far, but by all means, give my any ideas you may have. I'll start with my list of wants/ground rules.

1) I DO NOT want this to be "Space US Marine Corps". At all.
2) This should be a fairly small organization. It's not like, the Federation Army. It's more akin to a department of Starfleet that is focused on combat troops. Starfleet is still Starfleet.

I already have an idea that there are two defense organizations in the Federation. Starfleet is under direct command of the Federation, and has a mission profile primarily for science and exploration, but they also conduct "peacekeeping", border patrol, law enforcement, etc. There is another organization, tentatively calling it the "Federation Defense Council" which essentially the Federation's NATO... it exists to coordinate the independent forces of member worlds in times of war, which in my reboot universe they very much still have.

I don't think I want to actually use the name "Starfleet Marine Corps". It just sounds too... modern military to jive with Trek. I've come up with an organization that is similar to the relationship of the US Navy and Marine Corps... basically a sub-branch. There is Starfleet, and then there is "Tactical Operations Command".

Tactical Operations Command mission is to provide dedicated soldiers in situations that call for it, under the direct command of Starfleet (rather than having to go through the Defense Council and coordinate with a member world to get forces). A component OF Tactical Operations Command ARE "Marines". To the point that, although the department is officially called Tactical Operations Command, most colloquially refer to the whole organization as "Starfleet Marines". I drop the "Corps".

"Tac Ops", as it is often called as well, consists of Marines, Special Forces, and "Tactical Aviation" (I don't love the term... something to denote Fighters/Bombers/Marine Transports/Ground Support)

Tac Ops is structured in such a way to use a different rank structure, generally US Marines-ish, just to mirror the US Navy Starfleet ranks. Uniforms tend to be Starfleet uniforms of the era, with a few more military flares to them, and they get their Green color coding. What i'm seeing for uniforms, lets just go with the Dominion War era... Starfleet uniform, Green department color. They have alittle bit different comm badge, they get a unit patch on their arm. There's a combat uniform as well, probably pretty close to the DS9-style uniforms we see.

One of the kickers here is that, unlike alot of the attempts to make Starfleet Marines here, I don't want these to be overkill. In fact, they're a comparatively small organization that has trouble recruiting (people either want to go Starfleet, or stay in the homeworlds military) and they rend to be "underfunded". These Marines aren't running around with crazy weapons we never see anywhere and all sorts of nuts things. They're working with what they can get, which tends to not always be the best possible tools. They DO have things we don't see Starfleet officers use... photon grenades, personal shields to an extent, etc. They have some heavier weapons. Alot of it is either hand-me-down Starfleet things, or modified versions from their own R&D team.

I like the idea that Dominion War-era, the TNG-style Phaser Rifle is their go-to service rifle and it ended up bleeding out into Starfleet. By the Dominion War, Starfleet was using all sorts of next-generation Type 3 phasers but the Marines preferred the older ones. They were more reliable, the new ones tended to fail and the worst times and were overengineered. So the Marines hoarded the TNG Type 3's (i'll give everything real model numbers).

They do employ things like the TR-116, sans transporter. The Marines continue to develop ballistic weapons, even though they have fallen out of favor in Starfleet. They utilize a mix of energy and kinetic weaponry.

That's mostly where i'm at right now. Any ideas are welcome.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

While "Tac Ops" as a name is at least a little better than Marine Corps (particularly Starfleet Marine Corps rather than Federation Marine Corps), it seems like that would conflict with the existing "Tactical Officer" title in use in Starfleet proper?

BTS information from TOS movies-era uniform designer Bob Fletcher lists Starfleet Special Forces under the Office of the Inspector General (the top level commander for Starfleet Security officers). Alternatively, you could retcon that the UE MACOs* weren't disabanded and still exist.

As far as the rifles go, I'd be more inclined to invert the Type-3 rifle versus FC/DS9 S4+ designs dynamic that you suggest above given the truly horrific ergonomics of the former and decent though not spectacular ergonomics of at least some of the latter designs. In fact, they could even have an "official cover" as part of Starfleet R & D or Logistics or something to get around the "not a military" thing that the politicians and certain highly placed members of the Fleet like to trot out.

*The organisation of the NAVSOC, FBI SWAT/HRT units or the Royal Marines Commandos might be a decent place to start rather the US Marines.

 

[evilchumlee]

While "Tac Ops" as a name is at least a little better than Marine Corps (particularly Starfleet Marine Corps rather than Federation Marine Corps), it seems like that would conflict with the existing "Tactical Officer" title in use in Starfleet proper?

Possibly, although I was trying to keep somewhat similar nomenclature between the two. "Tactical Officer" is a position in Starfleet, which is a different branch. I'm not married to the name. I considered "Strategic Operations" or some such too. I just really don't want it to be "Marine Corps."

BTS information from TOS movies-era uniform designer Bob Fletcher lists Starfleet Special Forces under the Office of the Inspector General (the top level commander for Starfleet Security officers). Alternatively, you could retcon that the UE MACOs* weren't disabanded and still exist.

It could potentially work as just a broad "Special Forces"... I did want to lump fighters/bombers and such under it and make it slightly more of an organization that could engage in ground warfare. Still, it's not a terrible idea.

I have a thing for MACO's in my reboot universe. They kind-of still exist, but more as a tradition. I changed the name, I always hated "Military Assault Command Operations". They are more straight up Marines, from the United Earth Marine Command... MA...CO...

In my musings, I was figuring the very first iteration of [insert not-Marine name here] was simply composed of divisions transferred directly from member worlds, and would further integrate later on. So in say, 2175, you had MACO units under this command (along with Vulcan, Andorian, and Tellarite units). Eventually, they forces integrate further but some of the old traditions stay, just... not nailed down but for example... there may still be a unit like the 2nd Marine Brigade "Maco's". Or what used to be a Vulcan Commando unit by the 24th century is just another unit, but it's traditional unit patch has the IDIC on it.

As far as the rifles go, I'd be more inclined to invert the Type-3 rifle versus FC/DS9 S4+ designs dynamic that you suggest above given the truly horrific ergonomics of the former and decent though not spectacular ergonomics of at least some of the latter designs. In fact, they could even have an "official cover" as part of Starfleet R & D or Logistics or something to get around the "not a military" thing that the politicians and certain highly placed members of the Fleet like to trot out.

Bolded to highlight. This is a core of what i'm trying to do here to some extent. The "Marines" are a small organization, fairly ill-equipped, because a good chunk of the Federation doesn't want them. Starfleet knows the value of having a more dedicated combat force, but it's something of an unpopular opinion and in THIS universe, Starfleet truly is NOT supposed to be a military. There military is supposed to be the military, it's just that Space NATO doesn't actually work all that well.

I just really like the TNG Type-3, and thought that it worked in the sense of the "Marines" getting "leftover" equipment, but by the Dominion War and Starfleet proper getting into the fight... they start making their way back into regular service just due to how damn sturdy they are.

I had the idea that the TR-116 came from "Marine" R&D. They DO have their own department for it, it's just that Starfleet gets all the best stuff because everyone wants to be in Starfleet. My "Marines" are sort of the "red headed stepchild" of the Federation, but come throw in clutch situations.

*The organisation of the NAVSOC, FBI SWAT/HRT units or the Royal Marines Commandos might be a decent place to start rather the US Marines.

I've been looking to a few different things, and kind of made up my own a bit. I DO want to dig down deep into the actual organizational hierarchy. I use a few different terms... I believe right now, from top down my heriarchy goes...

Division
Brigade
Cohort
Section
Squad
Team

For some reason, I don't like the words "Battalion" or "Company". I tried to diversify it a bit to not be modeled after any specific Earth organization, just inspired by a generally European-American style.

I use some non-standard words too for smaller units. A Division, for example, may have something like a "Medical and Science Group" attached to it. Those are intended to be flexible and non-specific, depending on a given need.

In general both for Starfleet and [Marines] I paired down the rank structure a bit to streamline it. There's 6 enlisted ranks, 6 officer ranks and 4 flag ranks. For the [Marines] what I was toying with..

Private (which I hate, but I can't think a better term)
Lance Corporal (Which I hate even more, but can't think of a better term)
Corporal
Sergeant
Master Sergeant
Sergeant Major

Second Lieutenant (Hate that too)
Lieutenant
Captain
Major
Lt. Colonel
Colonel

Major General
Lt. General
General
Marshall

 

[fireproof78]

Bolded to highlight. This is a core of what i'm trying to do here to some extent. The "Marines" are a small organization, fairly ill-equipped, because a good chunk of the Federation doesn't want them. Starfleet knows the value of having a more dedicated combat force, but it's something of an unpopular opinion and in THIS universe, Starfleet truly is NOT supposed to be a military.

Why would it be unpopular would be my first philosophical musing.

But, more on topic, whenever I go to organize a Federation Military Force (name to come later) I go with Robert Heinlein's "Space Cadet" first, and note the Solar Federation's Marine Corps as a separate force from the Solar Patrol, acting as the "Switch" in order to manage piracy, protect merchant traffic, and provide enforcement. So, Starting with the title, I would look at the primary job of this branch, which is Military Enforcement Operations (MEO). The tittle would vary, depending on how you structure the chain of command, i.e. is it within Starfleet, and reports to the Federation's version of the Secretary of the Navy, or is it separate, and has it's own civilian oversight, so closer to the Army.

So, it could be Starfleet Military Enforcement Operations or Federation Military Enforcement Operations. Depends on how you answer who is in charge. In my opinion, operation outside of Starfleet would make sense for a larger force, but if you are wanting it to be a smaller, more specialized force, that is not regarded favorably, then under Starfleet as a department makes more sense.

On to ranks. Whenever I get stuck in a rank question I always go back to the etymology and origin of these terms. So, lieutenant is "one who stands in place of" another, so instead of the captain, the lieutenant holds their place while the captain rests, etc. With that in mind I tackled two:

Private (which I hate, but I can't think a better term)

Recruit is a more common term across several militaries, since there are multiple rates that can be called private, at least in US Military branches.

Lance Corporal (Which I hate even more, but can't think of a better term)

Borrowing an Army term-specialist.

Second Lieutenant (Hate that too)

Then the English term Cornet might be preferred.

I use some non-standard words too for smaller units. A Division, for example, may have something like a "Medical and Science Group" attached to it. Those are intended to be flexible and non-specific, depending on a given need.

If it is such a small unit, then they might do like the US MARINES do, in that they don't have their own corpmans. They use Navy enlisted for medical.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I just really like the TNG Type-3, and thought that it worked in the sense of the "Marines" getting "leftover" equipment, but by the Dominion War and Starfleet proper getting into the fight... they start making their way back into regular service just due to how damn sturdy they are.

Division
Brigade
Cohort
Section
Squad
Team

Section and Squad are roughly the same thing, several teams led by an NCO that are in turn grouped into various officer-led larger units.

Some British units use troop in place of platoon (and commanded by an O3 rather than an O1 or 2) and squadron in place company, so that might be an option? Group could also be used in place of battalion or regiment?

Private (which I hate, but I can't think a better term)
Lance Corporal (Which I hate even more, but can't think of a better term)
Corporal
Sergeant
Master Sergeant
Sergeant Major

Recruit is a more common term across several militaries, since there are multiple rates that can be called private, at least in US Military branches.

.

Borrowing an Army term-specialist.

Outside of the Navy, Recruit is mostly a non-deployable rank held during training.

Specialist and Lance Corporal are a similar paygrade, but not really the same role. Specialists essentially higher paid privates, but Lance Corporals where used are typically junior NCOs. Honestly, I'd be more inclined to use Specialist in place of Private to hint that they're slightly more highly trained and capable even on first deployment than IRL.

Second Lieutenant (Hate that too)
Lieutenant
Captain
Major
Lt. Colonel
Colonel

Honestly, I'd probably just use Starfleet standard ranks of Ensign (or the British Army Cornet) for the first rank and avoid the confusion of having two different Captain ranks. Second Lieutenant could also switch to Lieutenant Junior Grade if that's any better?

Major General
Lt. General
General
Marshall

I'd either keep Brigadier General for the commander of standing brigades (rather than ad hoc/composite units of a similar size which would be commanded by a Colonel or an Acting Brigadier.

Marshall (or Commandant) is better as the title of the department's CO, IMO. Similarly, Brigadier could be used as a temporary title for the CO of ad hoc composite units at the other end.

 

[fireproof78]

Outside of the Navy, Recruit is mostly a non-deployable rank held during training.

Specialist and Lance Corporal are a similar paygrade, but not really the same role. Specialists essentially higher paid privates, but Lance Corporals where used are typically junior NCOs. Honestly, I'd be more inclined to use Specialist in place of Private to hint that they're slightly more highly trained and capable even on first deployment than IRL.

This is limited to US structure. I looked outside of it.

 

[evilchumlee]

Why would it be unpopular would be my first philosophical musing.

the Federation's version of the Secretary of the Navy, or is it separate, and has it's own civilian oversight, so closer to the Army.

Partly due to trying to keep it very close the general Star Trekian "We aren't a military", I think it would extend through all of it. And then partly due to the particulars of this reboot setting, where there *IS* a military... or militaries to be precise. I delve much deeper into the inner workings and politics of the Federation, and by and large here the general attitude from member worlds is "leave us alone". They have their own defense forces and military structures that can be mobilized... theoretically... under a NATO-like organization.

Starfleet, by extension The Federation, having soldiers directly under it's command is an unpopular thing. Starfleet is supposed to be science, exploration and law enforcement. What do they need Marines for? (according to the Federation citizenry and politicians at-large.)

In my opinion, operation outside of Starfleet would make sense for a larger force, but if you are wanting it to be a smaller, more specialized force, that is not regarded favorably, then under Starfleet as a department makes more sense.

Somewhere in-between. As much as I don't want this to be US Marines IN SPACE, I DO like the relationship between the US Marines and US Navy. The "Starfleet Marines" are a separate service, under (or, adjacent to) Starfleet. I had an idea that there overarching organization is "Starfleet Command", "Starfleet" and "[Marines]" are both under the parent organization. The whole thing just kind of gets colloquially called "Starfleet".

Recruit is a more common term across several militaries, since there are multiple rates that can be called private, at least in US Military branches.

Then the English term Cornet might be preferred.

If it is such a small unit, then they might do like the US MARINES do, in that they don't have their own corpmans. They use Navy enlisted for medical.

Recruit could work, but I feel like that implies someone still in training, not just a lowest rank. I'm stumped on this one. I looked at other English-speaking militaries and "Private" seems to be a popular term. So is Lance Corporal.

As for the corpsman thing, my thoughts here are that... yes, that's probably how it is. They would need engineers, medical, science people due to it being Star Trek and all manner of things going on, but alot of those types would just be Starfleet on assignment. In my mind, I even had them largely separate in the organizational structure... they're attached in groups to a Division and then assigned as needed.

Section and Squad are roughly the same thing, several teams led by an NCO that are in turn grouped into various officer-led larger units.

Some British units use troop in place of platoon (and commanded by an O3 rather than an O1 or 2) and squadron in place company, so that might be an option? Group could also be used in place of battalion or regiment?

I figured that since this isn't JUST a human military, some of the nomenclature could be different. "Group" is good, I like Group but I was reserving that for a side thing. Squadron I wanted to reserve for the "Aviation" service under "the Marines".

I feel like "Section" can be vague enough to mean different things.

Specialist and Lance Corporal are a similar paygrade, but not really the same role. Specialists essentially higher paid privates, but Lance Corporals where used are typically junior NCOs. Honestly, I'd be more inclined to use Specialist in place of Private to hint that they're slightly more highly trained and capable even on first deployment than IRL.

It feels weird to use the word "Specialist" for... the lowest rank of something. Like, it feels they would be LEAST specialist of anyone?

Honestly, I'd probably just use Starfleet standard ranks of Ensign (or the British Army Cornet) for the first rank and avoid the confusion of having two different Captain ranks. Second Lieutenant could also switch to Lieutenant Junior Grade if that's any better?

I never considered Cornet, although i'm not sure I love it. Is there any kind of precedent for maybe using Lt. as the first officer rank, with something else inbetween Lt and Captain? As i'm thinking about it, i'm already thinking of removing "Lt. Colonel" in favor of "Commander".

I'd either keep Brigadier General for the commander of standing brigades (rather than ad hoc/composite units of a similar size which would be commanded by a Colonel or an Acting Brigadier.

Marshall (or Commandant) is better as the title of the department's CO, IMO. Similarly, Brigadier could be used as a temporary title for the CO of ad hoc composite units at the other end.

Given it's a relatively small force, I figured the Marshall was indeed the departments CO and there would only be one. I don't hate Brigadier General, although for some reason I want to alter to just "Brigade General". It just... sounds better to me.

OH! On the topic of word "Specialist", I had already co-opted that for Starfleet Enlisted ranks, although there's no particular reason it could be used either. I've streamlined Starfleet ranks, too... same structure, 6 enlisted, 6 officer, 4 flag. I tried to make the Starfleet enlisted ranks sound slightly less military.

Crewman 3rd Class
Crewman 2nd Class
Crewman 1st Class
Specialist
Chief Specialist
Master Chief Specialist

(and then the normal Starfleet ranks, except I removed Lt. Junior Grade and added Commodore/Fleet Captain as a permanent rank above Captain but not quite flag.)

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

It feels weird to use the word "Specialist" for... the lowest rank of something. Like, it feels they would be LEAST specialist of anyone?

Not really, I mean with no experience they literally only know the thing that they've been trained to do. Commonwealth navies, including the Royal Navy are heading in the direction that completion of A & C school equivalent is the minimum to be deployable.

Is there any kind of precedent for maybe using Lt. as the first officer rank, with something else inbetween Lt and Captain? As i'm thinking about it, i'm already thinking of removing "Lt. Colonel" in favor of "Commander".

None that I'm aware of. I'd prefer to keep the command positions (Major, Lt Col, Col...) with distinct ranks because of very different skillsets, whereas junior staff officers are likely fairly similar across the service.

OH! On the topic of word "Specialist", I had already co-opted that for Starfleet Enlisted ranks, although there's no particular reason it could be used either.

Make sure you used it for the same level, or at most one level off (with military basic shooters being one level below Starfleet Crewmen)

Crewman 3rd Class
Crewman 2nd Class
Crewman 1st Class
Specialist
Chief Specialist
Master Chief Specialist

Trainee
Specialist
Specialist 1st Class
Senior Specialist
Master/Leading Specialist
Chief Specialist.

(and then the normal Starfleet ranks, except I removed Lt. Junior Grade and added Commodore/Fleet Captain as a permanent rank above Captain but not quite flag.)

Ensign
Lieutenant
Major/Lt Commander
Lt Colonel/Commander
Colonel/Captain
Brigadier/Commodore

 

[evilchumlee]

Not really, I mean with no experience they literally only know the thing that they've been trained to do. Commonwealth navies, including the Royal Navy are heading in the direction that completion of A & C school equivalent is the minimum to be deployable.

Yeah that makes sense.

Trainee
Specialist
Specialist 1st Class
Senior Specialist
Master/Leading Specialist
Chief Specialist.

I'm not sure if this was for Starfleet or "Marines". For Starfleet, I wanted to keep "Crewman" in there, as the word gets tossed around alot. And then, Chief... because O'Brian. After that, things can move around.

Ensign
Lieutenant
Major/Lt Commander
Lt Colonel/Commander
Colonel/Captain
Brigadier/Commodore

I do kind of like this idea.

On a thematic note, one thing that always bugged me about other interpretations of Starfleet Marines were the use of... literal USMC rank insignia. That is an absolute no here, aside from Generals. Generals get Star pips.

I was thinking of emulating Starfleet with that as well, going more simplistic. Basically still the pip system (TNG+... other areas yet to be determined), just shaped differently. Officers I was thinking rather than circle pip, it's a bar... and then just the simplistic progression. But again, the aim is to keep it very close to Prime Trek. TNG+ era, i'm thinking they are silver as opposed to Starfleet's gold, or black-filled like some of the rank pips.

I Ensign (black)
I Lt. (Silver)
II Major (black and silver)
III Lt. Colonel (silver)
IIII Colonel (silver)
IIIII Whatever I call this one (silver)

Enlisted ranks will be similar. I like the idea of a Starfleet Delta in there. Whatever I name the 6 enlisted ranks... worn on the collar like everything. I'm going to use "D" in place of a delta.

D - lowest (just the delta)
>D
>>D
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>

I prefer simple rank/pip ststems. Nothing overly flashy.

 

[fireproof78]

Recruit could work, but I feel like that implies someone still in training, not just a lowest rank. I'm stumped on this one. I looked at other English-speaking militaries and "Private" seems to be a popular term. So is Lance Corporal.

Well, private originates as the a "private soldier" as far back as Rome. They just utilize it reference someone down at the lower end, which is why Recruit appeals to me since they would still be low end, and moving up the ranks.

As for the corpsman thing, my thoughts here are that... yes, that's probably how it is. They would need engineers, medical, science people due to it being Star Trek and all manner of things going on, but alot of those types would just be Starfleet on assignment. In my mind, I even had them largely separate in the organizational structure... they're attached in groups to a Division and then assigned as needed.

Which would make sense, and it might be helpful to at least look at a Marine Expeditionary Unit's structure to see how they get attached.

It feels weird to use the word "Specialist" for... the lowest rank of something. Like, it feels they would be LEAST specialist of anyone?

Which goes back to recruit in my mind, or another similar title.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

For Starfleet, I wanted to keep "Crewman" in there, as the word gets tossed around alot. And then, Chief... because O'Brian. After that, things can move around.

Well, Crewman could certainly be used in place of Trainee, similar to how Seaman or Airman are the generic terms IRL in their services.

On a thematic note, one thing that always bugged me about other interpretations of Starfleet Marines were the use of... literal USMC rank insignia. That is an absolute no here, aside from Generals. Generals get Star pips.

To minimise confusion with these guys and the Fleet, I'd have flag and general officers both use a boxed insignia from the TNG era onwards (pips for Fleet, stars for ground forces) and the same insignia without the box for officers (one pip/star for Ensign, four stars for Fleet Captain/Brigadier or similar), both in gold.

Enlisted ranks will be similar. I like the idea of a Starfleet Delta in there. Whatever I name the 6 enlisted ranks... worn on the collar like everything. I'm going to use "D" in place of a delta.

Personally, I'd have the basic rank have no rank insignia, though they could still wear a breast badge (I'd prefer all-silver to the officer's silver and gold), then start the rank insignia (perhaps silver bars similar to the TNG cadet ranks for ground forces, and silver pips for the Fleet) from the first rank with any authority. For example:

Crewman/Private - no insignia
Specialist/Lance Corporal - collar delta.
Specialist 1st Class/Sergeant - collar delta and one bar/pip
Senior Specialist/Staff Sergeant - collar delta and two bars/pips
Master/Leading Specialist/Master Sergeant - collar delta and three bars/pips
Chief Specialist/Sergeant Major - collar delta and four bars/pips

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Maybe change the name. The term "Marine" means "of, found in, or relating to the sea". The equivalent for space would be "spatial", "stellar", "astronomical" or "celestial".

 

[fireproof78]

Personally, I'd have the basic rank have no rank insignia, though they could still wear a breast badge (I'd prefer all-silver to the officer's silver and gold), then start the rank insignia (perhaps silver bars similar to the TNG cadet ranks for ground forces, and silver pips for the Fleet) from the first rank with any authority. For example:

Crewman/Private - no insignia
Specialist/Lance Corporal - collar delta.
Specialist 1st Class/Sergeant - collar delta and one bar/pip
Senior Specialist/Staff Sergeant - collar delta and two bars/pips
Master/Leading Specialist/Master Sergeant - collar delta and three bars/pips
Chief Specialist/Sergeant Major - collar delta and four bars/pips

If they are under the same authority (Starfleet Command) such a structure makes sense.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Maybe change the name. The term "Marine" means "of, found in, or relating to the sea". The equivalent for space would be "spatial", "stellar", "astronomical" or "celestial".

If you check the first couple of posts, that is the intention.

Espatier is the most direct linguistic parallel that is commonly recognised, but I think the OP is aiming for something a bit less on the nose.

 

[evilchumlee]

Well, private originates as the a "private soldier" as far back as Rome. They just utilize it reference someone down at the lower end, which is why Recruit appeals to me since they would still be low end, and moving up the ranks.

I'm starting to come around on "Recruit" over "Private". I tend to have the perception of "Recruit" being equal to a Starfleet "Cadet", i.e. someone in training, not actually ready to be in the field. But... especially in the enlisted sense, they aren't going to an officer school or anything so you're just a Recruit until you actually gain the next rank.

I think I might go with "Recruit" over "Private".

Well, Crewman could certainly be used in place of Trainee, similar to how Seaman or Airman are the generic terms IRL in their services.

"Crewman" would be a Starfleet enlisted rank. I am trying to keep this very close to Prime, just with tweaks, and we know for sure "Crewman" is a Starfleet rank (or at least, designation).

Although given you brought up "Trainee", I think that solves me issues of the "Marine" rank situation. "Trainee" is one who is undergoing basic training, "Recruit" is the first rank out of training. Like, you are done with training and have now been recruited.

To minimise confusion with these guys and the Fleet, I'd have flag and general officers both use a boxed insignia from the TNG era onwards (pips for Fleet, stars for ground forces) and the same insignia without the box for officers (one pip/star for Ensign, four stars for Fleet Captain/Brigadier or similar), both in gold.

Yeah I was thinking of putting the box around the stars.

Personally, I'd have the basic rank have no rank insignia, though they could still wear a breast badge (I'd prefer all-silver to the officer's silver and gold), then start the rank insignia (perhaps silver bars similar to the TNG cadet ranks for ground forces, and silver pips for the Fleet) from the first rank with any authority. For example:

I'm more in on the idea of having the two branches use different color rank pips, Starfleet stays gold, "Marines" are silver just to give it that extra bit of distinction. I think having the box around the flag officer pips makes sense.

Crewman/Private - no insignia
Specialist/Lance Corporal - collar delta.
Specialist 1st Class/Sergeant - collar delta and one bar/pip
Senior Specialist/Staff Sergeant - collar delta and two bars/pips
Master/Leading Specialist/Master Sergeant - collar delta and three bars/pips
Chief Specialist/Sergeant Major - collar delta and four bars/pips

I could go for this. I don't hate it.

Still trying to get the ranks to "sound" right to me. I really, really hate "Lance Corporal". I don't know why, but I just don't like it. I need to find something else.

I'm pondering perhaps putting Corporal just above Recruit, replace Lance Corporal and subbing in a [title] Sergeant there. Remember, this is specifically NOT supposed to be US Marines in Space, or even any actual modern day military. It's ok if it doesn't match with current military nomenclature entirely.

I think you're structure works well for me... Recruit - Corporal - Sergeant - Staff Sergeant - Master Sergeant - Sergeant Major. (I have odd tastes here, I also don't like "Staff Sergeant" and may sub in a slightly different wording for that, like "Senior Sergeant" or something.)

If you check the first couple of posts, that is the intention.

Espatier is the most direct linguistic parallel that is commonly recognised, but I think the OP is aiming for something a bit less on the nose.

Yes and no.

Trek tends to use enough Naval nomenclature that i'm comfortable using alot of that for space. "Marines", in this case, treat space as "the sea". It's just a starry sea.

I still want "Marines" to be a thing, I just don't want the branch to be called "Marines". "Marines" are units within the branch, but the branch itself isn't "Marines". It's really more just on the pedantic side... for all intents and purposes, this is the Starfleet Marine Corps. I just don't want to call it the Starfleet Marine Corps. I've toyed with a few names.

"Starfleet Strategic Operations", "Starfleet Tactical", "Tactical Operations", "Starfleet Combat Operations", etc. I feel like "Operations" sounds Star Treky enough to work.

The overall organization should be...

Starfleet Command (RL parallel - Department of the Navy) -
Starfleet (RL parellel - Navy) - [insert branch name] (RL parellel - Marine Corps)

 

[evilchumlee]

To expand on what "Starfleet Command" is here, to make it justified as being a parent organization, there are several other organizations that fall under it. Star Trek has always portrayed Starfleet as a monolithic organization. I want to keep that. I just want to give it more organization.

So in reality, there's:
Starfleet Command (which, in this context, is the command for all forces under direct Federation control, as opposed to those forces maintained by member worlds.)

Subordinate to Starfleet Command is... and i'm doing this on the fly...

Starfleet (the largest and most important, so it gets the name)
"Marines"
Starfleet Medical
Starfleet Intelligence (I want to have Section 31 in here too, maybe going with a somewhat DSC flair where it's a bit more legitimate earlier on.)
Starfleet Cargo Service
etc. you get the idea.

Essentially anything on the Federation level is under Starfleet Command.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

"Operations" is used elsewhere, though I suppose you wouldn't really confuse the two.

https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/special-forces

 

[evilchumlee]

"Operations" is used elsewhere, though I suppose you wouldn't really confuse the two.

https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/special-forces

"Operations" is a general enough term, although it might not be the best.

Even though, for all intents and purposes, this organization is basically "Special Forces", I feel like that title should be even smaller. Like, Special Forces are a part of this, but not the whole thing.

I'm trying to find a name that suggests a combat-militarism focus, specifically "ground" and "air" combat (in quotes because, space.), without sounding too military.

As we dig down into the organization... yes, then we get "Marines" and "Special Forces" and all that but as more specific things.

As I think of it, I think you are right that "Operations" isn't a great term. I was tinkering with making actual hierarchy charts and rather than "Logistics", I had "Operations" which is more on-brand for Star Trek... but it seems a bit weird when there's... Operations of Operations.

The organization is borne of Starfleet, so it's going to share alot of Starfleetisms. Rather than "Quartermaster" and "Logistics" and all that, it's "Operations".

"Force" could be a good stand-in for "Operations" though. I really have a brain bug on this one. How do we call something a combat force without calling it a combat force?

 

[evilchumlee]

I'm not terribly against the idea of something "Starfleet Armed Service" or something along those lines.

"Force" and "Service" or some such I think would be acceptable terms.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I think you're structure works well for me... Recruit - Corporal - Sergeant - Staff Sergeant - Master Sergeant - Sergeant Major. (I have odd tastes here, I also don't like "Staff Sergeant" and may sub in a slightly different wording for that, like "Senior Sergeant" or something.)

As you don't like Staff Sergeant either, how about?:

Recruit (in training for role) - Specialist/Operator/Crewman (qualified in role) - Corporal - Sergeant - Senior/Master Sergeant - Sergeant Major