Brainstorm - Starfleet Marines (alittle different)

[evilchumlee]

IMO, the two differences between Starfleet and modern military that are objectively true (rather than subjective pseudo-political rhetoric) is that they don't have an "up-and-out" policy and that they don't throw artifical, irrelevant barriers to their personnel advancing if they put the work in.

There's more to it than that on the cultural level. They don't really salute. There seems to be some outlier instances where a salute happens, but they're rare. They do things like have civilians and families on ships.

I had another thought that should have been obvious to solve my ship problem that works in both straight canon and own-universe. The Marines don't have ships, Starfleet operates the ships, but the Marines don't generally just use any Starfleet ship... there are specific ships assigned to a different command. It's a bit in the weeds of canon but we know most of the ships we see are "Exploratory Corps", and we know there's a separate Utility/"Second Contact" Corps. The more combat-focused ships the Marines use are a different division under Starfleet.

I like the idea of the them using ships like the Typhon-Class.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I like the idea of the them using ships like the Typhon-Class.

Putting aside that that ship is specifically a Dominion War-era design, so not something that they would have had access to historically, I would say that given its limitations in a number of areas* it's more of a "Second Contact" type vessel that would house the larger "Federation Reserves" cohorts and groups that might follow on from the Starfleet Security or Marines squad or platoon-sized quick response forces.

* It's one to two generations out-of-date in speed terms for instance.

 

[evilchumlee]

Putting aside that that ship is specifically a Dominion War-era design, so not something that they would have had access to historically, I would say that given its limitations in a number of areas* it's more of a "Second Contact" type vessel that would house the larger "Federation Reserves" cohorts and groups that might follow on from the Starfleet Security or Marines squad or platoon-sized quick response forces.

* It's one to two generations out-of-date in speed terms for instance.

I didn't necessarily mean the Typhon specifically, but ships like it. I like that it has a unique design from other Trek ships and I can see in my head the Typhon being of a line of ships designed for use in tandem with the Marines.

I like the idea of the Marine-focused vessels to be more about transport and small craft. I could see the Marines having several small craft for transport, air support, etc. Less in the way of straight space fighters, but maybe some.

For the actual canon side, I think these are a good way to kind of explain why we don't see them... the stories just never focused on these ships.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I like the idea of the Marine-focused vessels to be more about transport and small craft.

I think they pretty much have to be in order to justify them existing at all.

I could see the Marines having several small craft for transport, air support, etc.

Yup. At least one of the shuttle types that appear in the 2010s movies have a fairly "military" flavour to them. As does the Argo-type.

Less in the way of straight space fighters, but maybe some.

They could certainly have fighters that are both orbital space and ground attack capable for countering automatic defences and local auxiliaries, but IMO the closest to an "anti-starship" platform that would be operated by the Marines, rather than in support of the Marines by Starfleet, would be larger auxiliary vessels like the runabout or Delta Flyer.

For the actual canon side, I think these are a good way to kind of explain why we don't see them... the stories just never focused on these ships.

Pretty much.

Though I can probably think of a few situations that would have been resolved quicker or more effectively if they had been involved.

 

[Robert Bruce Scott]

The Marines don't have ships, Starfleet operates the ships, but the Marines don't generally just use any Starfleet ship... there are specific ships assigned to a different command.

That is the way marines have always operated. Even the landers belong to the Navy.

In Episode 4 of Star Beagle Enterprises, a group of U.S. Marines are running a resupply mission with a runabout, but the runabout is on loan from Star Fleet and is to be returned to Star Fleet.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

That is the way marines have always operated. Even the landers belong to the Navy.

Yeah, but a decent proportion of the airframes including some medium range stuff doesn't always belong to the Navy, and the Army has an entire fleet of transport vessels. US Army Ships

In Episode 4 of Star Beagle Enterprises, a group of U.S. Marines are running a resupply mission with a runabout, but the runabout is on loan from Star Fleet and is to be returned to Star Fleet.

Given that both the US Army and USMC does have a number of (air and/or water) logistics assets organic to their own organisation that seems almost contradictory.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Starfleet DOES do some military operations, but they're supposed to be limited. Member worlds very much do maintain their own fleets and ground forces.

Starfleet does plenty of "military" operations, though they're more in the vein of the Navy or Coast Guard than what would have been referred to as "the military" during the Age of Sail/Exploration.

The US Marines don't quite exist by name, but many of the US Marine traditions made their way in the United Earth MACO's (United Earth Military Authority Combat Operators) as the US military formed the core of United Earth's military forces, and by extension, when the Starfleet Marines were established, they were initially dominated by MACO's who established the early traditions.

Military Assault Combat Operations, which was somewhat implied to be a sub-component of the US Army or at least share training facilities with that organisation, in the primary canon.

The Litverse later identified them as the Military Assault Command Organisation and specifically identified them as United Earth's ground forces equivalent of Starfleet.

The MACO's could almost be used interchangbly with US Marines in the earliest days, and the name persist into the 24th century. It's no longer an acronym, but there are a few units out there with the nickname "MACO".

I agree on the second point, as I said before, the evidence for a connection between the MACOs and the Marines is speculative at best.

My pre-Khitomer Marines are a much larger organization and are their own department within Starfleet.

I've had various thoughts about that and would have happy to revisit them in the future.

Post-Khitomer, with the disarmament of Starfleet, they get reorganized and saved from total disbanding by slotting them as a department under Security/Tactical with significantly reduced forces.

While Security and Tactical are sometimes grouped together onboard ships during deployments, they're completely separate functions at flag level.

Security is grouped with Intelligence and probably Safety/Compliance and Internal Affairs, possibly court and penal services as well, allegedly under the Inspector General. Either under the ultimate authority of Operational Support Services or as it's own Command/Directorate.

OTOH, Tactical is apparently "military R & D" and is also at least partly in control of Starship Operations.

IMO, while a certain deference is likely offered to the CO and senior staff on the vessel they're embarked on -- and indeed they might co-operate with the Security Chief -- they're going to have their own chain-of-command for the most part.

At this point their closer to what i'm generally saying here. Pre-Khitomer they have more at their disposal. Post-Khitomer they actually drop the official "Marine" name and become "Advanced Tactical Operations"... but they're still colloquially referred to as Marines, and they still carry over the traditions, including their own rank system/insignia.

I'd prefer something along the lines "Special Forces", "Special Operations", "Hazardous Operations"* or even "Starfleet Search and Rescue", as while Tactical has been (mis)used for other things occasionally, the most consistent use has been in the context of starship combat, which your teams are specifically not about.

* While I'm largely onboard with the idea that forward deployed units aren't generally specialists in a particular environment (and indeed regular Starfleet Security are probably the urban specialists now I think about), it would make sense that one of the main training programs that they provide (and deployed activities) is support for operations in more hostile environments that the "shirtsleeves" settings that we typically see regular Starfleet personnel in on-screen.

 

[Robert Bruce Scott]

Yeah, but a decent proportion of the airframes including some medium range stuff doesn't always belong to the Navy, and the Army has an entire fleet of transport vessels. US Army Ships



Given that both the US Army and USMC does have a number of (air and/or water) logistics assets organic to their own organisation that seems almost contradictory.

Both true. The Army's transport vessels reflect the difference in Army and Marine roles. Traditionally, Marine and Naval services work very closely to knock down doors. When the Army shows up, they're there to stay, which requires dedicated logistics.

In the case of Star Beagle Adventures (in the Hunter/Beagle Trek-verse), it would be odd for the U.S. Marines to have a significant fleet of deep space assets as their mission is not primarily in deep space. Each member planet is expected to provide its own local military for planetary defense. However, United Earth Governments does assign a few UEG marine units to Star Fleet and these are often drawn from the U.S. Marines.

Thanks!! rbs

 

[evilchumlee]

I think they pretty much have to be in order to justify them existing at all.

I don't think out be outlandish for them to be transported around by mainline Starfleet, but it make more sense to have a dedicated division.

They could certainly have fighters that are both orbital space and ground attack capable for countering automatic defences and local auxiliaries, but IMO the closest to an "anti-starship" platform that would be operated by the Marines, rather than in support of the Marines by Starfleet, would be larger auxiliary vessels like the runabout or Delta Flyer.

Given how effortless getting into orbit is for Trek technology, there doesn't need to be much of a distinction between atmospheric and orbital. Damn near anything they have should be able to do both. I was thinking more in role, that the Marines wouldn't be operating fighters in an anti-starship role.

I could see a Runabout-type vessel working fairly well as a transport. I wouldn't expect them to have anything larger than that. I had batted around the idea of maybe having something like a Miranda, 30-ish crew, potentially as something of a mobile HQ type thing.

Going in the non-canon perspective, my reboot Daedalus-Class ships are smaller than canon and I had at least some of them going to the early Marines as transport vessels.

Pretty much.

Though I can probably think of a few situations that would have been resolved quicker or more effectively if they had been involved.

Yes... but I can write it off as they just weren't available. We do know of a few larger scale operations that had occurred that we never saw. There were presumably massive battles in the Kalandra Sector and the fall of Betazed in the Dominion War.

I've also been generally curious if the soldiers we see in DS9 "...Nor the Battle to the Strong" may have been Marines.

Military Assault Combat Operations, which was somewhat implied to be a sub-component of the US Army or at least share training facilities with that organisation, in the primary canon.

I don't think they were ever implied to be US Army, but they did utitilize training facilities. We know Major Hayes went to West Point.

I feel like there was a period right during ENT that the old national militaries were being absorbed into a unified, United Earth military.

The Litverse later identified them as the Military Assault Command Organisation and specifically identified them as United Earth's ground forces equivalent of Starfleet.

Yeah that makes sense.

In my own take on the litverse to speak, the United Earth's military is under the "United Earth Military Authority" and is essentially the same thing there. I have the "switch" from national militaries to the Military Authority occur in 2153 officially, with Earth's space assets mostly getting rolled into Starfleet.

I have a whole section of the politics of this, with the US Space Force vying to be Earth's space organization over Starfleet. They come close, but the US wasn't able to get their own homebrew warp drive up to Cochrane's standard. That combined with the Vulcans generally preferring to deal with Starfleet ended up driving United Earth to make Starfleet the space agency of United Earth (or, technically the United Earth Space Probe Agency, but it's splitting hairs at that point.)

I agree on the second point, as I said before, the evidence for a connection between the MACOs and the Marines is speculative at best.

For sure. This comment was 100% speculation / my own version in this context.

I have it set that the early Marines were somewhat haphazardly slapped together slightly after the formal founding of Starfleet, which just relied on "donations" from the Federation members. Earth just tended to be the one who donated the most of everything, so the MACO's formed the core of the initial forces.

I've had various thoughts about that and would have happy to revisit them in the future.

Anytime!

While Security and Tactical are sometimes grouped together onboard ships during deployments, they're completely separate functions at flag level.

Security is grouped with Intelligence and probably Safety/Compliance and Internal Affairs, possibly court and penal services as well, allegedly under the Inspector General. Either under the ultimate authority of Operational Support Services or as it's own Command/Directorate.

OTOH, Tactical is apparently "military R & D" and is also at least partly in control of Starship Operations.

I think the Starfleet organization gets muddy with that, and likes to use similar terms for different things.

"Security / Tactical" is a completely different animal to "Starfleet Security".

"Security / Tactical" is definitely a distinct department within Starfleet that deals with the applicable shipboard operations as well as higher level organization.

"Starfleet Security" is much closer to something like the FBI and definitely it's own department.

I'd prefer something along the lines "Special Forces", "Special Operations", "Hazardous Operations"* or even "Starfleet Search and Rescue", as while Tactical has been (mis)used for other things occasionally, the most consistent use has been in the context of starship combat, which your teams are specifically not about.

"Security / Tactical" appears to encompass essentially anything that might be combat related in Starfleet. There may very well "Special Forces" in each of the various departments... hell we know Starfleet Science has special forces in Division 14.

* While I'm largely onboard with the idea that forward deployed units aren't generally specialists in a particular environment (and indeed regular Starfleet Security are probably the urban specialists now I think about), it would make sense that one of the main training programs that they provide (and deployed activities) is support for operations in more hostile environments that the "shirtsleeves" settings that we typically see regular Starfleet personnel in on-screen.

I think that is entirely reasonable.

I think it just generally goes along with the general Starfleet training. Rather than these Marines being trained for a specific combat environment, they're trained for various different environments over what your starship security officer would be trained to handle.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I don't think out be outlandish for them to be transported around by mainline Starfleet, but it make more sense to have a dedicated division.

I'd kinda see it mostly a "top and tail" type scenario.

Most of the auxiliary vessels used the force would operated by the "Marines", likewise most pure transport vessels -- especially any designed to transport formations and above -- would be either Marines operated or at least contracted by them from third parties (this might also be a thing for covert operations), but any large, long-range vessels would be the usual Starfleet multi-role type at least in potential (see previous points about a down-crewed Miranda-class).

Given how effortless getting into orbit is for Trek technology, there doesn't need to be much of a distinction between atmospheric and orbital. Damn near anything they have should be able to do both. I was thinking more in role, that the Marines wouldn't be operating fighters in an anti-starship role.

Agreed on both points.

Probably mostly sub-impulse or impulse-only, particularly combat vessels.

I could see a Runabout-type vessel working fairly well as a transport. I wouldn't expect them to have anything larger than that. I had batted around the idea of maybe having something like a Miranda, 30-ish crew, potentially as something of a mobile HQ type thing.

I've seen a few other transports in various fan projects that would also serve that role for cohort to small formation-level deployments if needed.

Starfleet Transport Command

We do know of a few larger scale operations that had occurred that we never saw. There were presumably massive battles in the Kalandra Sector and the fall of Betazed in the Dominion War.

I'd say so.

I've also been generally curious if the soldiers we see in DS9 "...Nor the Battle to the Strong" may have been Marines.

I don't disagree, though I tend to focus on the more organised detachment from "The Siege of AR-558" as there are a number of ways that that can be extrapolated organisationally, whereas the other merely supports the idea that "ground forces" exist.

I don't think they were ever implied to be US Army, but they did utitilize training facilities. We know Major Hayes went to West Point.

My point was that the MACOs use West Point, which at least allows for some sort of relationship to the US Army, whereas a link to the USMC is purely speculative.

I feel like there was a period right during ENT that the old national militaries were being absorbed into a unified, United Earth military.

I have it set that the early Marines were somewhat haphazardly slapped together slightly after the formal founding of Starfleet, which just relied on "donations" from the Federation members. Earth just tended to be the one who donated the most of everything, so the MACO's formed the core of the initial forces.

Possibly not in their entirety, particularly as the only MACO components that we know of are all sub-units, so the MACOs and even the UEMA could be more akin to the Eurocorps.

Anytime!

Let's focus on hashing out the "modern" force first, then move back discussing the more complex issue of the original force?

I think the Starfleet organization gets muddy with that, and likes to use similar terms for different things.

Up to a point, yeah.

"Security / Tactical" is a completely different animal to "Starfleet Security".

Kinda, at least in the sense that shipboard security sometimes includes armory and tactical personnel, whereas the flag department doesn't. However Starfleet Security does have the authority to conduct investigations on starships and override starship senior staff on security matters.

"Security / Tactical" is definitely a distinct department within Starfleet that deals with the applicable shipboard operations as well as higher level organization.

No, it's at least two separate departments at flag level, maybe even three or more depending on how Starfleet Intelligence (who also have a general brief vis-a-vis ship's security teams) fit in.

"Starfleet Security" is much closer to something like the FBI and definitely it's own department.

I'd argue that they're a pretty direct hybrid of OSI and SF, at least as far as their primary remit of protecting Starfleet.

"Security / Tactical" appears to encompass essentially anything that might be combat related in Starfleet. There may very well "Special Forces" in each of the various departments... hell we know Starfleet Science has special forces in Division 14.

The shipboard department certainly appears to cover most of those functions, I'm thinking mainly of sub-units and units might be available to regional and central command under the flag level Security department, similar to Starfleet Science's flag level unit Divison 14.

Indeed the term "special forces" (which could be either specific or generic) and "black ops" (clearly generic) have been used to describe personnel on LDS, though for tv reasons at least some of these are seconded regular Starfleet.

 

[evilchumlee]

Most of the auxiliary vessels used the force would operated by the "Marines", likewise most pure transport vessels -- especially any designed to transport formations and above -- would be either Marines operated or at least contracted by them from third parties (this might also be a thing for covert operations), but any large, long-range vessels would be the usual Starfleet multi-role type at least in potential (see previous points about a down-crewed Miranda-class).

I can definitely see alittle bit of both happening, although I would say the "contracted by them from third parties" would probably just be... Starfleet.

We know Starfleet has a few different arms in terms of fleets. Having a smallish fleet dedicated to ground troop transport and logistics isn't outlandish, and frees up more Marine personnel to do Marine things.

Agreed on both points.

Probably mostly sub-impulse or impulse-only, particularly combat vessels.

Sure, but also given that warp drive is another nearly effortless thing to add to a ship, I would argue "why not?" Even if those craft aren't usually expected to travel at warp, there's no real compelling reason why they should lack the ability.

Worst case scenario, their carrier ship had to retreat. If they're impulse only, they're kind of boned. If they have warp capability, they can go rendezvous independently.

I've seen a few other transports in various fan projects that would also serve that role for cohort to small formation-level deployments if needed.

Starfleet Transport Command

Yeah there's all kind of things they could potentially use. I still want to know what a "Hopper" is. I've seen some fan designs.
https://starshipfiles.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/transportcommand.pdf

My point was that the MACOs use West Point, which at least allows for some sort of relationship to the US Army, whereas a link to the USMC is purely speculative.

Possibly not in their entirety, particularly as the only MACO components that we know of are all sub-units, so the MACOs and even the UEMA could be more akin to the Eurocorps.

I do think there's a period of transition where things get slightly muddy, where United Earth is taking more and more jurisdiction over the national militaries. It's all speculation, but we're also assuming West Point is still a US Army facility, and not a United Earth facility... or perhaps more likely, both.

I do think that by and large the United Earth military is probably organized in a somewhat similar way as Eurocorps.

United Earth is definitely more of a centralized government than like, the United Nations, or even the European Union. We DO know that national militaries still exist into ENT, but I also think that United Earth is structured somewhat similarly to how the Federation would eventually be... the Federation as a central government has military forces, but it's constituent member forces also have their own military forces.

It's kind of my own speculation/observation that while terrestrial national militaries may still exist through the ENT era, Starfleet ends up with the monopoly on Earth's space forces.

Kinda, at least in the sense that shipboard security sometimes includes armory and tactical personnel, whereas the flag department doesn't. However Starfleet Security does have the authority to conduct investigations on starships and override starship senior staff on security matters.

No, it's at least two separate departments at flag level, maybe even three or more depending on how Starfleet Intelligence (who also have a general brief vis-a-vis ship's security teams) fit in.

Starfleet Intelligence is definitely its own department.

Tactical / Security has always been portrayed as a single department, although yes we do generally see that through the lens of shipboard operations. I will say though your argument does hold water judging by Worf on DS9. Worf is "Strategic Operations Officer" and wears a red/command uniform rather than a gold/security uniform. So there is definitely some kind of departmental separation there.

I'd argue that they're a pretty direct hybrid of OSI and SF, at least as far as their primary remit of protecting Starfleet.

I do believe Starfleet Security goes beyond the role of protecting Starfleet though. They appear to be involved in things like border security and civilian investigations. Take for example Commodore Oh... disregarding that she was a Tal Shiar plant, nobody knew that, was going after Maddox for threatening the Federation.

I think Starfleet Security does the roles of OSI and SF for sure, but they're also something of a "Space FBI", under the general assumption that Starfleet tends to be the Federation authority in space. The second anyone leaves the confines of a planetary body, Starfleet Security has jurisdiction.

By the same token, Starfleet Intelligence is also 100% "Space CIA" while also providing military intelligence to Starfleet.

Starfleet is a different animal from most modern organizations, and there is a reason why so many... writers included... tend to confuse "Starfleet" with "The Federation". Starfleet has broad power within the Federation.

Indeed the term "special forces" (which could be either specific or generic) and "black ops" (clearly generic) have been used to describe personnel on LDS, though for tv reasons at least some of these are seconded regular Starfleet.

I was going to bring up the "black ops" thing and I think I disagree with you on the usage. In LDS, "Black Ops" seemed to be used as a more specific label.

I'm fairly certain there is an actual organization, either informally or formally, called "Starfleet Black Ops". That seems... weird. I tend to think that "Black Ops" is a more colloquial label for the operational arm of Starfleet Intelligence.

"Special Forces" when used in Trek does tend to have a more generic connotation. That's partly why I didn't want to call these "Marines" "Special Forces" despite them not really fitting the strict definition of "Marine". It's also partly just because the term "Marine" has a long association with fandom and such and I think it fits the organization when we compare "space" to "the sea". Like quite a few things in Star Trek, the 24th century usage of the word doesn't necessarily have to match perfectly with the 21st century strict definition.

 

[fireproof78]

Sure, but also given that warp drive is another nearly effortless thing to add to a ship, I would argue "why not?" Even if those craft aren't usually expected to travel at warp, there's no real compelling reason why they should lack the ability.

It's a question of tactics and resources. One, if you have a warp engine there is more things to go wrong. Two, reducing complexity allows for Marine personnel to Marine, and not have to repair the warp engine. Three, it denies access to the enemy of a resource if captured.

I think, as with many tactical decisions, the type of transport will come down to the type of mission the Marines are being sent on. Some may require warping in and dropping hard against a ground based enemy, while other may just be a home ship warping in, softening up the target from orbit, and sending in the transports.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Tactical / Security has always been portrayed as a single department, although yes we do generally see that through the lens of shipboard operations.

It was only depicted as a single department in the TNG-VOY era (+ LDS to an extent), and even then only on Starfleet vessels (tactical was a separate function from day one on DS9) and ENT never even had a proper Security Department at all, though it did have various defensive Security Reaction Forces.

TOS, DSC and SNW all depict security and tactical (bridge weapons and armory) as separate functions, sometimes even part of different "colour divisions".

At flag level the functions demonstrated by Starfleet Tactical have some overlap with "starship tactical", but are completely different to the functions demonstrated by Starfleet Security, though their planning is likely informed at least in part by the work of Starfleet Intelligence.

 

[evilchumlee]

It was only depicted as a single department in the TNG-VOY era (+ LDS to an extent), and even then only on Starfleet vessels (tactical was a separate function from day one on DS9) and ENT never even had a proper Security Department at all, though it did have various defensive Security Reaction Forces.

ENT may not have had a "proper" security department, but they definitely had security officers, and Reed was definitely in command of them.

DS9 is a bit of a curveball... i'm not sure they had initially had a "Tactical" department at all. Even once Worf is there, he's not really doing station tactical, he's doing Sector tactical. I'm not sure how to word it in military terms, but it seems like Worf is less a part of the DS9 station operations, more than he does his job from DS9.

TOS, DSC and SNW all depict security and tactical (bridge weapons and armory) as separate functions, sometimes even part of different "colour divisions".

To an extent. TOS was often times unclear, but it sort of seems like... nobody we know is in charge of security?

The 23rd century in general has a different organization than later Starfleet. In SNW, La'an is definitely Chief of Security but... for the life of me I can't envision who is in charge of tactical. I feel like Operations handles it?

DSC is an odd one just because nobody really matters other than Burnham so... do we even know who Chief of Security or Tactical was?

At flag level the functions demonstrated by Starfleet Tactical have some overlap with "starship tactical", but are completely different to the functions demonstrated by Starfleet Security, though their planning is likely informed at least in part by the work of Starfleet Intelligence.

Starfleet Security and Starfleet Intelligence definitely work together... Admiral Pressman was (I might get it mixed up) part of Starfleet Security but working under orders from Intelligence (could be vice versa).

I'm not sure "Starfleet Security" as a department really has much to do with shipboard security. I'm fairly certain shipboard security is sort of its own department.

 

[fireproof78]

DSC is an odd one just because nobody really matters other than Burnham so... do we even know who Chief of Security or Tactical was?

Yes, we do.

Though TOS didn't really get a Chief of Security for a long while, and we only it in Devil in the Dark.

Starfleet Security and Starfleet Intelligence definitely work together... Admiral Pressman was (I might get it mixed up) part of Starfleet Security but working under orders from Intelligence (could be vice versa).

He was a rear admiral of Intelligence, but was working in cooperation with the Chief of Starfleet Security, Admiral Raner.

So, definitely two distinct flag divisions, with similar distinct duties. Which is how organizations like Starfleet work. Roles can comingle, but their jobs or mission focuses will vary.

 

[evilchumlee]

Yes, we do.

I forgot most of the details of Discovery. I had to look some things up and it seems to be flip-flop a bit.

Landry seemed to be both Security and Tactical early on.

Then there was a definite shift when Rhys became Tactical and Tyler became Security, later replaced by Nhan.

Though TOS didn't really get a Chief of Security for a long while, and we only it in Devil in the Dark.

It does seem like there was a shift by the TNG-era. I can see that making sense with fallout from the Khitomer Accords.

He was a rear admiral of Intelligence, but was working in cooperation with the Chief of Starfleet Security, Admiral Raner.

So, definitely two distinct flag divisions, with similar distinct duties. Which is how organizations like Starfleet work. Roles can comingle, but their jobs or mission focuses will vary.

Ah, I did have it criss-crossed.

Yeah I don't find anything odd about that relationship. I was using the example to show that Starfleet Intelligence and Starfleet Security are two distinct flag divisions.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Landry seemed to be both Security and Tactical early on.

She only directly identifies herself as Chief of Security, however there is some ambiguity on the point given that First Officer Saru was acting as Tactical Officer during Discovery's first battle scene shortly after her death.

Then there was a definite shift when Rhys became Tactical and Tyler became Security, later replaced by Nhan.

Agreed. Though that was a break from TOS where the Tactical Officer was either the Helmsman or more plausibly the Navigator (on a related point Discovery also had two Operations Officers and a Communications Officers, versus TOS' Navigator and Communications Officer* so there's some musical stations going on there)

It does seem like there was a shift by the TNG-era. I can see that making sense with fallout from the Khitomer Accords.

Agreed, though the apparent logic of the shift is a little odd.

Yeah I don't find anything odd about that relationship. I was using the example to show that Starfleet Intelligence and Starfleet Security are two distinct flag divisions.

At least to a point.

Given that Starfleet Internal Affairs is part of Starfleet Intelligence and that most criminal investigations outside an individual unit/command are apparently handed by SI rather than Starfleet Security, I except that they're both part of the same ultimate chain-of-command (reporting to a four or five-star admiral), perhaps under the Starfleet Inspector General (who would be in charge of IA at minimum), but I'm not dogmatic on the name.

Director of National Intelligence




* NB Both also had a Science Officer station, so that cancels out.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I'm fairly certain there is an actual organization, either informally or formally, called "Starfleet Black Ops". That seems... weird. I tend to think that "Black Ops" is a more colloquial label for the operational arm of Starfleet Intelligence.

It would pretty much have to be the informal name by definition, as "black ops" is literally the label used for operations that aren't officially talked about and sometimes aren't even officially sanctioned.

There's some indication that this was (part of) Section 31's remit at one point, but I'd be inclined to use Jeri Taylor's Starfleet Rangers in that role if a formal name separate from "Starfleet Intelligence, Operations Division" is needed.

"Special Forces" when used in Trek does tend to have a more generic connotation. That's partly why I didn't want to call these "Marines" "Special Forces" despite them not really fitting the strict definition of "Marine".

IMO it's less that they don't meet the classical definition of "Marine", it's more that when combined with the clear bias towards US naval forces in Starfleet proper, it brings to mind the United States Marine Corps which wasn't want you were going for even with the larger "pre-Khitomer" itineration and presumable are slanted that way even less now?

However, the classical definition of the "marine" overlaps with the definition of "commando":

A commando is a combatant, or operative of an elite light infantry or special operations force, specially trained for carrying out raids and operating in small teams behind enemy lines.[1]

Originally "a commando" was a type of combat unit, as opposed to an individual in that unit. In other languages, commando and kommando denote a "command", including the sense of a military or an elite special operations unit. In the militaries and governments of most countries, commandos are distinctive in that they specialize in unconventional assault on high-value targets.

Indeed, the British "Corps of Royal Marines" -- one of, if not the originator of the term "marine" (rather than "naval infantry") -- still a remit much closer to the classic Age of Sail one and are exclusively a commando force, with the exception of the largely non-deployable Royal Marines Band.

Also, at least of the three main antecedent units to the "Starfleet Marines" -- the Vulcan and Andorian "special forces units" -- are specifically identified as commandos in dialogue and it's not difficult to apply the same principles to the MACOs, given that both the 75th Ranger Regiment and the USMC Reconnaissance Battalions -- the IRL units extant at the time that the MACOs are most based on -- are also considered de facto commando units.

So, "Starfleet Commandos" does pretty much everything we want "Starfleet Marines" to do as a name, but includes few if any of the connotations that we don't want?

 

[evilchumlee]

There's some indication that this was (part of) Section 31's remit at one point, but I'd be inclined to use Jeri Taylor's Starfleet Rangers in that role if a formal name separate from "Starfleet Intelligence, Operations Division" is needed.

One of the real oddities of Discovery was that Section 31 was... apparently a bonafide division of Starfleet Intelligence.

I prefer to leave "Starfleet Intelligence" as just that. They would have internal organizational divisions and what not, but to basically anyone on the outside, they're just "Starfleet Intelligence".

IMO it's less that they don't meet the classical definition of "Marine", it's more that when combined with the clear bias towards US naval forces in Starfleet proper, it brings to mind the United States Marine Corps which wasn't want you were going for even with the larger "pre-Khitomer" itineration and presumable are slanted that way even less now?

Yes...

Might be the point to step back and give a different perspective. From the real-world perspective, I want Starfleet Marines... partly because it sounds cool, and partly because of a long-standing fanon about Starfleet Marines. It's sort of being used out of tradition.

In-universe... there are any number of reasons why "Marines" would be used over some other name. I go for the more simple explanation of "when Starfleet was building combat forces, they went with their general US Navy-ish traditions and made them Marines." Simple as that.

*snip*

So, "Starfleet Commandos" does pretty much everything we want "Starfleet Marines" to do as a name, but includes few if any of the connotations that we don't want?

Starfleet Commandos absolutely work, and is probably closer to the actual definition of what this force is.

Part of the reason I kind of wouldn't want to use is that specifically because we have canonical commandos in the universe.

I like to think of early Federation humans having a bit of a "screw you" attitude, but more of an in-jest tone. When I envision the formation of the Starfleet ground combat force, it ended up composed of elements from the member worlds, but skewed heavily towards Earth because Earth was way more gung-ho about the Federation.

Earth sent a bunch of MACO units. I'm generally assuming that MACO's were already akin to special forces, and were specifically trained for off-world combat. There is presumably some kind of United Earth Army and the like.

Vulcan and Andor sent some Commando units. Tellar sent something.

When command was establishing the organization for it, the predominantly human command, they had their MACO's as the backbone of the force, who in turn tended to be drawn from the US Army, US Marine, Royal Marines, etc. You also had Vulcan and Andorian Commandos. The humans in charge didn't want to use Commandos because it was almost seen as giving too much credit to the Vulcans and Andorians. Special Forces was probably considered, although that may have already existed in some form.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Might be the point to step back and give a different perspective. From the real-world perspective, I want Starfleet Marines... partly because it sounds cool, and partly because of a long-standing fanon about Starfleet Marines. It's sort of being used out of tradition.

I don't disagree inherently.

In-universe... there are any number of reasons why "Marines" would be used over some other name. I go for the more simple explanation of "when Starfleet was building combat forces, they went with their general US Navy-ish traditions and made them Marines." Simple as that.

Well, honestly this is kinda where the original version of the force in question might be different from what it became post-Khitomer, while there would still be some differences in exact composition (particularly on the Logistics side, but perhaps the HQ side to an extent) the 23rd Century version of that was more openly military might have been more similar to US-style Marines in role and scope.

Whereas post-Khitomer, much of the bulk of the force was demobilised/shifted to "Federation Reserve Forces" with the remainer being reassigned to support the "security, tactical and intelligence directorate" within Starfleet proper as an augmented "rapid response force".

Starfleet Commandos absolutely work, and is probably closer to the actual definition of what this force is.

Part of the reason I kind of wouldn't want to use is that specifically because we have canonical commandos in the universe.

I like to think of early Federation humans having a bit of a "screw you" attitude, but more of an in-jest tone. When I envision the formation of the Starfleet ground combat force, it ended up composed of elements from the member worlds, but skewed heavily towards Earth because Earth was way more gung-ho about the Federation.

I don't disagree, which is why in-universe Starfleet ended up being the name of the overall fleet, but the fact that the combined fleet at all suggests that there were some compromises...

Earth sent a bunch of MACO units. I'm generally assuming that MACO's were already akin to special forces, and were specifically trained for off-world combat. There is presumably some kind of United Earth Army and the like.

Vulcan and Andor sent some Commando units. Tellar sent something.

When command was establishing the organization for it, the predominantly human command, they had their MACO's as the backbone of the force, who in turn tended to be drawn from the US Army, US Marine, Royal Marines, etc. You also had Vulcan and Andorian Commandos. The humans in charge didn't want to use Commandos because it was almost seen as giving too much credit to the Vulcans and Andorians.

... such as giving the credit for the parts of the organisation that they mostly don't really want to have to the other guys, particularly as the only source unit that we know is formally named Commandos (rather than merely have that training and role is the human Royal Marine Commandos).