Ever been thrown out of a story by a reference?

[EliyahuQeoni]

The last thing an author should be doing is reminding the reader that he's reading a novel.

I don't know about that. I've written a story where it's impossible not to be conscious that you are reading a story, and that was a deliberate choice on my part. Some stories function best artistically if they keep their audience off-balance and at some distance.

But there is a difference between an author who purposely reminds the reader that they are reading a novel for artistic effect and one who pulls the reader out of the story with clumsy in-jokes that serve no real purpose other than to show how "clever" the author is.

 

[JD]

I like fun little in-jokes myself, as long as the author doesn't make a huge deal about it, if it's fairly subtle then I'm able to get a quick little chuckle out of it and move on. But it would get a little annoying when if start focusing on the joke or reference and keep going back to it again and again. So far I haven't really run into that in any Trek books, so I'm pretty happy with it myself.

 

[William Leisner]

Sorry, I'd much, much have a clever author who can surprise me, make me stop in the middle of a page and laugh or smile or say "Wow!"

And frankly, there really needs to be more cartoon references in Trek.

 

[Smiley]

About the only time I really get pulled out of a book is if the in-joke is carried too far. For example, one of the editors was Tuckerized (I think it was commodore DeCandido)and used for more than a walk-on, and that became distracting. Otherwise, I'll just laugh at the joke and go on.

 

[Defcon]

About the only time I really get pulled out of a book is if the in-joke is carried too far. For example, one of the editors was Tuckerized (I think it was commodore DeCandido)and used for more than a walk-on, and that became distracting. Otherwise, I'll just laugh at the joke and go on.

That was in Traitors Wind IIRC and at the time the book ws written Keith wasn't involved officially with Trek yet as far as I know, I think he just had helped the authors with something. It's only because of KRAD's later fame that it stands out a bit.

 

[Stevil2001]

I just finished Before Dishonor the other day, and it had one that took me out of the story. Geordi (or someone else, my copy's not handy) notices that the computer's voice reminds him of Troi's mother for some reason he can't put his finger on.

I had the same reaction to that line. A similar line in Forged in Fire, in which Sulu thinks of asking Dr Chapel to record her voice-print for the Excelsior computer, pulled me out of the story as well.

See, the real problem with that joke is that it's been made about a thousand times. All the way back in The Rift, Number One uses her voice as the template for the Enterprise's new computer system.

 

[HIj'Qa]

Typos, clumsy references and blatant in-jokes are my three worst fears when reading Trek.

It is a media tie-in genre, so I accept and expect an author to reference canon material. I actually prefer an author to play with the sand in the sand box rather than throw the Enterprise and Co into a totally new environment. But if there's no story, detailing the on-screen appearances of the test tube McCoy is holding do not add up to one. Clever plot devices like a story featuring every character Suzy Plakson played on Trek is a poor editorial decision in my opinion. It didn't throw me out of the story, it caused me to never pick the story up in the first place.

In-Jokes when done badly throw me out of the story because I think 'Why am I being told this. is is not moving the story forward ?!?!?' If I don't get the joke is the author sniggering at me for being dumb? I don't anticipate that author's next work very much.

Some authors are more prone to in-jokes and full spectrum references, others have a lighter touch. It goes a bit in cycles too. When ENT was on, the books tried to have an ENT reference to set the newcomer into the Trek past. Luckily ENT's not on anymore! It will be intersting to see how whatever canon the new movie establishes gets referenced in stories.

 

[KRAD]

About the only time I really get pulled out of a book is if the in-joke is carried too far. For example, one of the editors was Tuckerized (I think it was commodore DeCandido)and used for more than a walk-on, and that became distracting. Otherwise, I'll just laugh at the joke and go on.

That's really not fair, because that reference was in Traitor Winds by L.A. Graf, which was published in 1994, a good six years before I published my first Trek fiction. There was also a lieutenant named Marina Frants in there -- both characters were named for me and my then-wife in exchange for the two of us taking Julia and Karen-Rose (and John Ordover) to the Russian Samovar, a Russian restaurant in New York City, so they could get authentic Russian food to use in the book.

In exchange for this service, characters in the book were named for us. Since I was just a low-level SF editor at Byron Preiss at the time (I hadn't even sold my first fiction yet), nobody really thought of it as any kind of in-joke except for my friends and family.

 

[Corran Horn]

In the story "Eleven Hours Out" in "Tales of the Dominion War" the crew of the Starship Columbia had *exactly* the same first and last names as the real shuttle Columbia astronauts. I absolutely understand it was to honor them (I actually lived in Orlando during the disaster and my wife and I wondered why we didn't hear Columbia's sonic boom, only to find out why shortly later) but I thought it was a little weird for them to have the exact same names and it always takes me out of the story.

(I don't mean to disrespect the homage though)

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

Sorry, I'd much, much have a clever author who can surprise me, make me stop in the middle of a page and laugh or smile or say "Wow!"

And a good author can do all of that without pulling the reader out of the story. Which is the difference between a clever author and a "clever" author.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Sorry, I'd much, much have a clever author who can surprise me, make me stop in the middle of a page and laugh or smile or say "Wow!"

And frankly, there really needs to be more cartoon references in Trek.

QFT.

 

[William Leisner]

Sorry, I'd much, much have a clever author who can surprise me, make me stop in the middle of a page and laugh or smile or say "Wow!"

And a good author can do all of that without pulling the reader out of the story. Which is the difference between a clever author and a "clever" author.

But, all readers are not the same. Peter David's winks to the audience don't pull me out of the story. They certainly don't prompt me to jump on the internet and decree that he is not a good author because of my own idiocyncratic reaction. Granted, some of them have made me roll my eyes and groan aloud, but I don't have anywhere near the reaction you're describing.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

^^
Well, I think it goes without saying that different readers have different tastes and reactions to different styles of writing. I mean, some people think Anne Rice is a good writer, while I find her stuff completely unreadable. Obviously this is all my personal opinion, but I thought that would have been obvious.

 

[Aaron McGuire]

In the story "Eleven Hours Out" in "Tales of the Dominion War" the crew of the Starship Columbia had *exactly* the same first and last names as the real shuttle Columbia astronauts. I absolutely understand it was to honor them (I actually lived in Orlando during the disaster and my wife and I wondered why we didn't hear Columbia's sonic boom, only to find out why shortly later) but I thought it was a little weird for them to have the exact same names and it always takes me out of the story.

(I don't mean to disrespect the homage though)

That botherd me so much that I couldn't even finish the story. While I appreciate the homage, it was over the top.

Aaron McGuire

 

[Smiley]

About the only time I really get pulled out of a book is if the in-joke is carried too far. For example, one of the editors was Tuckerized (I think it was commodore DeCandido)and used for more than a walk-on, and that became distracting. Otherwise, I'll just laugh at the joke and go on.

That was in Traitors Wind IIRC and at the time the book ws written Keith wasn't involved officially with Trek yet as far as I know, I think he just had helped the authors with something. It's only because of KRAD's later fame that it stands out a bit.

(Quoted because it was the shorter explanation)

I appreciate the info, Defcon and KRAD. L.A. Graf is hereby pardoned, but I'm afraid the references in that book will still have the same distracting effect on me in the future.

 

[DBR]

Yeah, I've been pulled out of stories -- but that isn't a bad thing, really. I don't remember the book, but there was mention of an Archer Monument or statue or something, and I was like "ugh". This just happened to be during the second season of Enterprise, which I wasn't enjoying very much. Two stories during the "A Time to..." series kept having characters with familiar names popping up, and I thought I was pretty clever when I realized they were also the names of American Idol contestants. I believe I made a post here or on Psi Phi about it, and the author responded (sorry, I forget the titles and the author) and told me there were references from the E Street Band. (I have no idea why the formatting of my post went wonky)

 

[Turbo]

I have to say, Transporter Chief T'Bonz jerked me out of the story for a minute the first time I saw it...

 

[ClayinCA]

I just finished Before Dishonor the other day, and it had one that took me out of the story. Geordi (or someone else, my copy's not handy) notices that the computer's voice reminds him of Troi's mother for some reason he can't put his finger on.

I had the same reaction to that line. A similar line in Forged in Fire, in which Sulu thinks of asking Dr Chapel to record her voice-print for the Excelsior computer, pulled me out of the story as well.

See, the real problem with that joke is that it's been made about a thousand times. All the way back in The Rift, Number One uses her voice as the template for the Enterprise's new computer system.

Yeah, this is definitely a joke/reference that's had its day - and I really don't think Peter David needs to do this joke any more, since he not only did it in The Rift and Before Dishonor but also has a running plotline about Morgan Primus' resemblance to Number One/Chapel/Lwaxana in the New Frontier books as well.

My favorite comment on the Majel Barrett "joke" is in Christopher Bennett's Ex Machina, where McCoy is complaining that Chapel is treating him like a child, to which she responds, "Honestly, Leonard, do I look like someone's mother?" Perfectly done, since it makes total sense in context as well as being a sly reference extra-textually.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I have to say, Transporter Chief T'Bonz jerked me out of the story for a minute the first time I saw it...

But not Ensign Melorr?

 

[Turbo]

I have to say, Transporter Chief T'Bonz jerked me out of the story for a minute the first time I saw it...

But not Ensign Melorr?

When I first read the books, I had no idea what your secret identity was.