Ever been thrown out of a story by a reference?

[William Leisner]

^^
Obviously this is all my personal opinion, but I thought that would have been obvious.

Yes, obviously you thought it was obvious. But this is a real pet peeve of mine -- there is a huge difference between saying "I personally do not like X's books" and saying "X is bad," or even "In my opinion, X is bad." It goes back to the old rule, attack the work, not the person.

 

[William Leisner]

The one PAD running gag that I thought was over-the-top was Ensign Phaytus in Cold Wars. Because I wasn't "reading" it right to find it funny. :/

No, it was over the top and unfunny even when reading it right.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

The one PAD running gag that I thought was over-the-top was Ensign Phaytus in Cold Wars. Because I wasn't "reading" it right to find it funny. :/

No, it was over the top and unfunny even when reading it right.

Agreed. That was the one Peter David joke I didn't like at all.

 

[captcalhoun]

The one PAD running gag that I thought was over-the-top was Ensign Phaytus in Cold Wars. Because I wasn't "reading" it right to find it funny. :/

No, it was over the top and unfunny even when reading it right.

Agreed. That was the one Peter David joke I didn't like at all.

i liked it...

i'm a sucker for in-jokes. christ, some of you people better never read my fan-fic...

spot the security guards named after the Avengers, the X-Men and solo Marvel heroes, spot the security guards named after Life on Mars characters, spot the Miami Vice reference for a character 'played' by Jamie Foxx and especially watch out for the story featuring characters named for Wardilmore, M&M, PAD, KRAD, TerriO, John Vornholt, Bob Greenberger, David Mack and both Margerat Clark and Marco...

and that's not even starting on the in-jokes in my original fiction...

 

[Therin of Andor]

The one PAD running gag that I thought was over-the-top was Ensign Phaytus in Cold Wars. Because I wasn't "reading" it right to find it funny. :/

You still got it wrong. It was Pheytus, pronounced "Fetus" - and I thought it was funny...

My first indication that people were reacting badly were posts on Psi Phi as the book started turning up in bookstores, but I try to avoid spoilers. I was bewildered, after reading the book, that so many people had had bad reactions to an in-joke. Additionally, that so many couldn't pick up they were pronouncing it wrongly, and that's why they weren't understanding the joke. Then there were the others who didn't like it because they thought that joking about such subject matter was in bad taste.

I guess I've been in the situation a few times with friends or work colleagues where an in-joke - which we all knew to be inappropriate to a certain situation - continued to linger, and so the situation, if not that particular word play was extremely, embarrassingly, familiar.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I got the joke and I didn't think it was in bad taste. I just found the behavior of the crewmen in the situation to be highly juvenile. Funny, maybe, for one scene, but over the course of the book.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I got the joke and I didn't think it was in bad taste. I just found the behavior of the crewmen in the situation to be highly juvenile. Funny, maybe, for one scene, but over the course of the book.

You've never been in a workplace where the adults act in a juvenile, unprofessional manner (even just for a moment) on a very tense day?

 

[Allyn Gibson]

You still got it wrong. It was Pheytus, pronounced "Fetus" - and I thought it was funny...

I was taking a stab in the dark at the spelling. Digging my New Frontier books out of storage is pretty low on my list of things to do.

Additionally, that so many couldn't pick up they were pronouncing it wrongly, and that's why they weren't understanding the joke. Then there were the others who didn't like it because they thought that joking about such subject matter was in bad taste.

I look at "Pheytus" and I "hear" a long-A sound. So, of course I was mispronouncing it.

And beyond that, it was a pretty stupid joke, even if I had picked up on the intended pronunciation.

Frankly, I can't imagine that this was the first time Starfleet would have encountered a name in an alien language that means something completely different in a human language. What happened the first time a Starfleet ship encountered an alien named Phuuq? Or what if Picard's last name happens to be the most vile curse in an alien language, thus upsetting a delicate first contact situation?

The problem, Ian, that I had with it is that it was a juvenile, immature joke. And completely unnecessary.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

Yes, obviously you thought it was obvious. But this is a real pet peeve of mine -- there is a huge difference between saying "I personally do not like X's books" and saying "X is bad," or even "In my opinion, X is bad." It goes back to the old rule, attack the work, not the person.

I really fail to see the difference in this case. Not liking someone's writing is pretty much the same as holding the opinion that they are a bad writer. I don't see it as an attack at all, just a statement of opinion. If I'd said "I think Anne Rice is an idiot" that would have been an attack.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Not liking someone's writing is pretty much the same as holding the opinion that they are a bad writer.

If they were truly "a bad writer" then they wouldn't be getting very much success. "Bad" writers rarely get their manuscripts out of the slush piles. Most published writers (not counting self-published ones) have written well enough to cause their publishers and editors to have faith in their writing abilities, or at least in their celebrity (which may garner them some sales).

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

Not liking someone's writing is pretty much the same as holding the opinion that they are a bad writer.

If they were truly "a bad writer" then they wouldn't be getting very much success. "Bad" writers rarely get their manuscripts out of the slush piles. Most published writers (not counting self-published ones) have written well enough to cause their publishers and editors to have faith in their writing abilities, or at least in their celebrity (which may garner them some sales).

You make a good point. However, I would argue that this is why its only my opinion that they are a "bad writer." Obviously others disagree or else they wouldn't be published. Different people have different opinions and tastes, its what makes life interesting.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Different people have different opinions and tastes, its what makes life interesting.

Exactly. Which was our point.

But you started out by defining a good/clever author as one who could make an in-joke which did not pull you, personally, out of a story. Therefore they were "bad" authors if you did get pulled out by the in-joke, but others didn't. You even pointed out that there was a 'difference between a clever author and a "clever" author', but these definitions were ones that seemingly applied only to you. We somehow had to know the workings of your brain before that was a given fact.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

We somehow had to know the workings of your brain before that was a given fact.

I'll have to take a look at what I posted up-thread, but if this is the case then I apologize. I'll try to be more clear in the future, because that is definitely not what I was aiming at.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

If they were truly "a bad writer" then they wouldn't be getting very much success.

Obviously you've never read Eragon.

 

[Christopher]

Or what if Picard's last name happens to be the most vile curse in an alien language, thus upsetting a delicate first contact situation?

They did something along those lines in Alien Nation -- Matt Sikes's surname sounded like the Tenctonese word for "head of excrement." And then there was the episode where he showed the Three Stooges to his Newcomer neighbor and she said, "Do you have any idea what 'nyuk-nyuk-nyuk' means in Tenctonese?"

Personally, I'm surprised that shiitake mushrooms didn't have a new name coined for them when marketed in America.

 

[Steve Roby]

Additionally, that so many couldn't pick up they were pronouncing it wrongly, and that's why they weren't understanding the joke.

And that's PAD's fault. He came up with an alien name that has to be pronounced a certain way for the joke to work, and he spelled the name using a combination of letters that can be pronounced in two different ways. _ey can be a long E (as in key), but it's often more like a long A sound (grey, Del Rey, hey, they). He blew his own joke. Can't blame the readers for getting it wrong.

And I'm with the people who thought the storyline was beyond immature. But then I'm one of the people who thought PAD should have been quietly thankful to his editor for removing the notorious 21-bun salute scene, too, rather than bitching about it in his column in Comic Buyers Guide.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

But then I'm one of the people who thought PAD should have been quietly thankful to his editor for removing the notorious 21-bun salute scene, too, rather than bitching about it in his column in Comic Buyers Guide.

I know I'll likely regret asking, but what is the "21-bun salute scene"?

 

[Stevil2001]

Different people have different opinions and tastes, its what makes life interesting.

Exactly. Which was our point.

But you started out by defining a good/clever author as one who could make an in-joke which did not pull you, personally, out of a story. Therefore they were "bad" authors if you did get pulled out by the in-joke, but others didn't. You even pointed out that there was a 'difference between a clever author and a "clever" author', but these definitions were ones that seemingly applied only to you. We somehow had to know the workings of your brain before that was a given fact.

As someone who has a disclaimer stating "Entire post is personal opinion", I would have thought you would apply this to other people as well...

 

[Nardpuncher]

Or what if Picard's last name happens to be the most vile curse in an alien language, thus upsetting a delicate first contact situation?

They did something along those lines in Alien Nation -- Matt Sikes's surname sounded like the Tenctonese word for "head of excrement." And then there was the episode where he showed the Three Stooges to his Newcomer neighbor and she said, "Do you have any idea what 'nyuk-nyuk-nyuk' means in Tenctonese?"

Personally, I'm surprised that shiitake mushrooms didn't have a new name coined for them when marketed in America.

Why would you be surprised? We are quite used to Winnie the Pooh and guys called Dick. Nobody should be offended or trying to find humour with those anymore.

 

[William Leisner]

^ Heh heh heh.... "pooh"....